Carrying a Kimber Concealed

[JJCampsite]

I'm new to Kimber(just got a Ultra CDPII). How do most people carry a Kimber concealed? Obviously for liabilty purposes, they recommend never carrying the gun cocked, loaded ready to fire. I have seen numerous pictures of weapons carried this way. Please forgive my ignorance; thanks in advance for your help!

[dirtydirtysouf]

i carry mine in a Crossbreed IWB holster in cond. 1

The Conditions of Readiness:

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are:

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don't understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Condition Three adds a degree of "insurance" against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called "the Israeli draw" since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.

Using the "half-cock" as a safety

The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a "fail-safe" and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn't use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with "Series 80" type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.

[Sarge45]

I own the Kimber Ultra Carry II and the Kimber Pro Crimson Carry II and carry them both in a Don Hume H721OT. I also have a CompTac MTAC with open nosed shell that I can use for deep concealment. I carry "cocked and locked" as they say with no reservations.

[gordian]

i carry mine in a Crossbreed IWB holster in cond. 1
dirtydirtysouf, do you have a link to this Cooper information?

Also, SWMBO doesn't carry hers, however in her nightstand she keeps it at a mix between Condition 0 and Condition 3--that is, she racks the slide to cock the hammer (with no mag) then inserts the mag. This has the following advantages: (1) having the hammer cocked back makes racking the slide to actually chamber a round slightly easier; (2) the kids can't pick it up and fire it without racking the slide (not perfect, but better than Condition 0); and (3) it's a great sound effect should the need arise to investigate suspicious nocturnal activities.

I generally carry my 5" at Condition 0.

[ultra45]

I'm new to Kimber(just got a Ultra CDPII). How do most people carry a Kimber concealed? Obviously for liabilty purposes, they recommend never carrying the gun cocked, loaded ready to fire. I have seen numerous pictures of weapons carried this way. Please forgive my ignorance; thanks in advance for your help!

I carry my CDP Ultra, Condition 1, in OWB holsters 99% of the time. I have one High Noon tuckable that rarely sees daylight. My CDP and S&W 1911PD are working gund (plainclothes) so IWB is not an option for me. Also and most importantly, Condition 1 IS the ONLY way to carry any SA auto for defence purposes. If you carry a 1911 pattern pistol for defense, get comfortable with cocked & locked or carry something else.

[dirtydirtysouf]

dirtydirtysouf, do you have a link to this Cooper information?

Also, SWMBO doesn't carry hers, however in her nightstand she keeps it at a mix between Condition 0 and Condition 3--that is, she racks the slide to cock the hammer (with no mag) then inserts the mag. This has the following advantages: (1) having the hammer cocked back makes racking the slide to actually chamber a round slightly easier; (2) the kids can't pick it up and fire it without racking the slide (not perfect, but better than Condition 0); and (3) it's a great sound effect should the need arise to investigate suspicious nocturnal activities.

I generally carry my 5" at Condition 0.

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

[tnhawk]

First, congrats on a fine pistol. I carry my Ultra CDP in a IWB holster from Horseshoe Leather. It and every other 1911 I own are carried in Condition 1.

[Chessbum]

Full size Kimber is always condition one. Very comfortable with this after six or so years of owning the gun. I was uncomfortable at first but I have unloaded it and loaded it so many times I am not concerned with an accidental discharge. Mag out and rack it several times to unload do what I need to do and the mag goes back in, rack it once remove the clip and add one more then back in the gun for normal use. I believe the more you use it the safer you are.

[kcmack]

I have the CDP ll and I carry it condition 1. It is a very nice gun.

[YesItsLoaded]

[QUOTE=gordian]dirtydirtysouf, do you have a link to this Cooper information?

Jeff Cooper is the grandfather of 1911/defensive carry: worth your while to look him up and study his work carefully.


(2) the kids can't pick it up and fire it without racking the slide (not perfect, but better than Condition 0)

Kids can/will/do just about anything ... If your weapon is not attached to you it should NEVER be loaded and accessible to a child ... EVER!

I generally carry my 5" at Condition 0

WHY?

[mwink822]

I carry either a Springfield TRP or Colt CCO cocked and locked (Condition one). To be honest, if you're carrying a 1911, carrying in condition two, three, or four defeats the purpose of carrying a firearm for self defense. Think of it this way, assuming that you carry in a quality holster, the 1911 has sufficient mechanical safeties to prevent it from firing with out the shooter volitionally causing it to discharge. Thing two, in the event you actually have to deploy your gun for its intended purpose, are you going to have the fine motor skills to rack the slide to chamber a round then get on target and shoot, let alone remember that you have to draw rack and fire. Adrenaline does funny things to a person. If you insist on carrying in condition three, you may as well leave the gun home. Just my $.02

[Frank]

When I carry a 1911 (most of the time I can legally carry), I carry it in condition 1. See --

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=42123

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=37561

I also recommend good professional training. See --

http://ezine.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=41

... it's a great sound effect should the need arise to investigate suspicious nocturnal activities....Off topic, but since it was raised I need to point out that going to "investigate suspicious nocturnal activities" is an extraordinarily bad idea, unless one must try to round up unaccounted for guests or family members.

What I've been taught in the various classes I've taken, is that if you hear a noise --

[1] You investigate as best you can from a place of safety inside the house with your family. You wait and quietly listen. Does the sound repeat? Can you begin to identify it? Can you positively identify it as something innocuous? If the sound is clearly from outside, you may look out nearby windows.

[2] If you can't identify the sound and believe there is a danger, you assure that your family and any known visitors are all together and with you in a place of safety. You arm yourself. You call the police. You maintain telephone contact with the police. And you wait.

[3] You do not go anywhere to investigate, because --

(a) If you go looking, and there is indeed a BG there, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked. You may also have given a BG access to family members to use as hostages. Or there maybe more than one.

(b) When (whether you called them or they were called by a neighbor who may have also seen or heard something) the police respond, they don't know who you are. You are just someone with a weapon.

And here we have an example of what can happen if you go out to investigate: http://cbs11tv.com/local/watauga.stabbing.burglary.2.851147.html. The BG was outnumbered. The BG brought a knife to a gunfight. The BG was on unfamiliar territory. But the BG also had a significant tactical advantage and won the fight.

Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas during the first six years of the NTI, one, and only one, competitor got through one of those six NTIs without being judged killed, and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.

But let's not discuss this here. It's too far off topic for this thread. If anyone wants to discuss this topic, please start a new thread in the General Discussion forum.

DVC

[FredBart]

It is easy to think that with a handgun and a flashlight, we can sweep our homes free of invaders. As you report, even experts with years of real world experience have a good chance of losing that battle.

Look at videos from Iraq when trained soldiers with automatic rifles clear a building. Whether in training or in a battle situation, they act together in a coordinated fashion. One middle aged guy with a 12 gauge or a 1911 pistol has a small chance of beating a armed felon(s) in his own home. The safe room concept has a lot going for it. Get ready, prepare yourself and call 911.

[w5wjp]

Kimber Crimson Ultra Carry II in condition 1 in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster.

[Det3]

Kimber Ultra CDP 2 in condition one (always when carried) in a Kramer IWB FBI canted holster

[MoreGunsThanCents]

I'm new to Kimber(just got a Ultra CDPII). How do most people carry a Kimber concealed? Obviously for liabilty purposes, they recommend never carrying the gun cocked, loaded ready to fire. I have seen numerous pictures of weapons carried this way. Please forgive my ignorance; thanks in advance for your help!

COCKED & LOCKED THIS IS THE TRUE 1911 MAN'S MAY...THE ONLY WAY...NOT DANGEROUS!

[springerchop]

Ultra II mostly in a supertuck sometimes a smartcarry. always condition 1.

[phydaux]

My father-in-law and I go round and round about this.

I carry my 1911 in an IWB behind my strong-side hip in Condition One. The IWB combines comfort & concealment. Condition One provides readyness.

My father-in-law says I'm crazy. He carries his 1911 in an IWB in Condition Three. The only reason he has ever given is "That's how I carried it in 'Nam. Good enough then, good enough now."

At times I have been tempted to say, "Well, you also carried an M-14 in 'Nam." At other times I have been tempted to kick a hornet's nest. Thus far I have never done either.

[Rochefort46]

My 99 percent of the time carry gun is my Kimber Ultra Raptor II, which is carried in Condition 1. The rest of the time I carry my Kimber SCC, also in C-1. I use a pocket holster most of the time for the Raptor because of the short barrel. If I'm carrying the SCC I usually shove it under my belt or in a De Santis inside the waistband, but hardly ever because I can't breathe when I do since I'm too cheap to buy new, roomier britches.

[MajorTom]

I carry my Kimber SS Ultra Raptor II in a Kimber Galco OWB holster, condition one with at least one extra magazine. When I was in Vietnam I carried an old Colt 1911 in a military style flap holster with a round in the chamber and hammer down on my web belt. Also carried 4 extra mags.

[D.A.]

I almost always have a 1911 on my hip, either kimber stainless ultra carry or a custom II. I have never carried a 1911 on my hip that was not in condition one. If you carry any other way your @ a major disadvantage. If the grip safety, thumb safety, & firing pin block are not enough safety measures for you I don't know what could be.

[06kr]

I mostly carry my CDP-PRO also condition 1 in a IWB holster (M. Rosen). But when I carry the CDP-Ultra it is in this and condition 1 as you can see.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z207/2814V/DSCN1368.jpg

[Bluffton45]

Frank makes excellent points regarding "sounds in the night". About the only advantage, other than being armed (assuming you are) is a knowledge of your house layout. Use it to help recognize the location of a BG. What made the sound etc? Hopefully you can tell when danger becomes (more) imminent.

Ron