Barrel Fitting in OM

[SteelArt]

I was wondering if any of you have experiance in fitting a barrel in an Officer's Model 1911. I have a OM size Caspian "kit gun" in my shop that has a cycling problem. The slide will not return to battery because the barrel starts to link up while the slide is moving forward. When the slide is about 1/4 inch from locking up, the barrel attains a three point jam between the link, the bottom of the barrel muzzle against the slide and at the top of the chamber against the slide locking lugs. If you hold the gun muzzle up, it will close smoothly. If the gun is held horizontal, or muzzle down, the barrel will ride the link upward and wedge the slide.
This gun has the standard OM flared barrel and does not have a bushing. The barrel tunel is .699", and when the gun came into my shop, the barrel was riding heavily on the bottom of the barrel tunnel in the slide and the bottom barrel lugs would not touch the impact surface in the frame. I have removed material from the bottom of the barrel tunnel to lower the barrel and the lugs now touch the frame, but the chamber area of the barrel still rides on the bottom of the tunnel when the slide is in the full recoil position. When the slide is in the full recoil position, the muzzle of the barrel is not touching the muzzle end of the barrel tunnel. The muzzle of the barrel is hanging out in mid air with the .699" barrel tunnel around the .575" diameter area of the barrel. When the slide begins to move foreward, the barrel raises on the link and the top of the chamber rubs against the top of the slide. When the muzzle area of the slide reaches the point of picking up the barrel at the flared end, the whole mess jams. I'm thinking that the friction between the bottom of the barrel and the slide may be causing the barrel to link up early and I should take out more material. But, I am concerned because the barrel already assumes a muzzle down position when the slide is in recoil. If I remove more material from the bottom of the barrel tunnel to drop the muzzle to contact the slide at the front, it will tip the barrel even further down at the muzzle and possibly aggravate the problem by tipping the link upward. Any suggestions? How were the original OM guns set up?

SteelArt

[CJR]

SteelArt,

I just posted what I've done to make my OM run in this forum under the thread named, "Short Barreled 1911s". I've set up a few standard OMs, with barrel bushings, and this procedure works for me. Read my post over and if you have any further questions, drop me a line.

Best regards,

CJR

[CJR]

SteelArt,

After posting my last reply to you, I reread your post. I have some additional comments for you:

1. There must be no barrel contact with the slide during recoil. If there is, the slide gets slowed down, barrel gets bounced around laterally and vertically, and malfunctions develop. You will need to remove more material inside the slide as you describe. Kuhnhausen also describes this in his 2nd Volume.
2. After linkdown, the clearance between the top of the barrel and the slide lug area must be .010 to 0.015 inch. This insures no contact between the slide and barrel during normal cycling.
3. In linkdown, only the back vertical surface of the bottom barrel lugs must touch the vertical frame surface as Kuhnhausen correctly describes in his 2nd Volume. The bottom of the barrel, i.e. chamber area, must not be in contact with the top of the frame as Kuhnhausen incorrectly describes in his 1st Volume.
4. Check if you have too long a link already installed, which may be aggravating things. With new barrels, I use an internal barrel rod with nipple(Brownells sells one) that lines up with the firing hole. When the barrel is installed properly with this rod, the firing pin hits are dead center on the primers.
5. Check to see if the extractor is prematurely hitting the underside of barrel hood, driving it upwards, before the slide's breechface hits the back of the barrel hood. Check by removing recoil spring and slowly hand-cycle slide on frame. Does extractor prematurely hit underside of barrel hood before breechface hits back of hood? If so, clearance the underside of the hood on the extractor side.
6. Reread what I posted earlier about barrel torquing and how the hood must be clearanced to the slide. The final hood clearancing depends on the measurements of the barrel lug widths, lug recess width in frame, hood width, hood recess width in frame, lateral slide movement on frame, and sloppy link/stop fit allowing more angular CCW movement of barrel in frame.

If you have any questions let me know. I'll be in my hunting camp the next two days but I'll get back to you when I return.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

Best regards,

CJR

[stans]

I'm thinking it is a long link, having been there and done that with my homebuilt Commander.

[1911Tuner]

Sounds like stans nailed this one again. (Didn't I tell ya'll he was good? Didn't I? Huh?) ;)

Check to see if the barrel is standing on, or riding the link during the vertical lockup phase. Many people install a long link to correct sloppy vertical fit in the mistaken belief that it will help, when it actually causes more problems
than it solves.

CJR...Of course the barrel contacts the slide during recoil...That's what the locking lugs do. It's after unlock/linkdown that you don't want slide to barrel contact.

[SteelArt]

Thanks for all of our input on this problem, but I still have some questions as to where I should go from here. I have a good bit of experience with 1911 guns, but not with the Officer's Model. I've got Kuhnhausenen's books and Shuey's videos and none of them address the OM gun. The link is the correct length, the barrel lugs contact the frame properly and the barrel does not touch the top of the frame under the chamber area. But, the barrel still rides the bottom of the barrel tunnel because the front of the barrel is not supported when the slide is in recoil.
My question is, how do these guns function when there is no support of the front of the barrel when the slide is in recoil? On the standard 1911 models, the barrel is supported by the bushing during recoil and that keeps the barrel lugs back against the frame. If you take a barrel and put it on a frame with the slide stop pin (without the slide) and tip the frame muzzle down, you will have an example of what is happening in this gun. The muzzle will drop, the barrel will sag forward and rise on the link, lifting the chamber area to the point where it would rub on the upper slide lugs, if the slide were on the frame. This extreme angle causes a three point wedge of the barrel between the slide and the link as the slide tries to return forward. This gun will also not chamber a cartridge properly because the bullet hits the top of the chamber, pushing the barrel upward into the slide, creating the wedged situation.
So, how does the OM function with no support of the barrel at the muzzle? I can remove more material at the bottom of the barrel tunnel so the barrel doesn't drag in the slide, this would lower the muzzle of the barrel so it is supported at the front of the slide, but that would allow the barrel to sag at the muzzle at an extreme angle. I do not understand how the gun will function properly if the barrel is allowed to tip even further than it does now.
Thanks again,
SteelArt

[John]

The bottom of the barrel, i.e. chamber area, must not be in contact with the top of the frame as Kuhnhausen incorrectly describes in his 1st Volume.

The bottom of the barrel chamber (behind the barrel's leg) should not touch the barrel's bed in the frame? Strange, both my pistols barrels rest there, and they function perfectly. I didn't know that the barrel should not touch the frame bed!!!! So there should be a gap between the frame ramp and the barrel's ramp??? Are you sure about that?

[SteelArt]

If the barrel touches the frame at the bottom of the chamber, the barrel lugs cannot properly contact the barrel stop area in the frame. This condition causes the slide stop pin to take the load of restraining the barrels inertia. The slide stop pin may eventually break, and if the gun is fired with a broken slide stop pin, the result will be a crash that will likely destroy the gun.
The gap between the bottom of the chamber and the frame only needs to be a few thousands of an inch, but it must not touch.
SteelArt

[1911Tuner]

Whew! Again...I don't quite know where to start.

The lower barrel radius not touching the frame bed applies with a hand-fitted
gun that started with a barrel with overlength dimensions at the bottoms of the lower lug feet. (Good luck in finding a barrel with lower lug feet like that.) Perfectly spec-ed and fitted, the feet just touch the recess just as the link stops the barrel's drop, and halts it in light compression. In the early days, when the 1911s were pretty much hand-built and fitted, most of them did this. After the specs were altered for WW2-era production, it was determined that it wasn't necessary as long as the frame's vertical impact surface stopped the barrel's rearward movement at the right place. As long as it stops the barrel after it unlocks from the slide and before the link has to stretch...and the rear face of the lower lug isn't hitting too low on the vertical impact surface...it's fine.

Whew! Talk about a run-on!

When thinking about the tilting barrel design, keep in mind that the tilt is in lockup. When the barrel unlocks and drops, it goes pretty close to level.
Close meaning...maybe not perfectly level, but close enough to call it that.
If the bushing fit prevents it from dropping to the frame bridge, it's not right.
Once the bushing moves back from the muzzle, the barrel shouldn't be in any sort of bind with the bushing. Likewise, once the barrel is fully down, the link should be loose. The barrel is correctly stopped by the vertical impact surface...at the right time and place. Ideal is for the impact surface to contact the rear lower lug right at the junction where the radius is, or just a bit lower. Below mid-point can break the lug loose from the barrel. The link's sole function is in getting the barrel unlocked and away from the slide in time to get out of the way.

Fitting the barrel in an OM-length gun is pretty straightforward, and standard practices will work fine. All 3 lugs bearing in the horizontal plane if possible...Lower lug to slidestop pin camming the barrel into vertical lockup, with full or nearly full depth and overlap...Hood fitted with no more than .003 inch clearance per side, if accuracy is your goal, and .005 inch for service grade. Rear face of the hood making light to medium in-battery contact with the breechface up to a maximum of .005 inch clearance for service-grade pistols.

EDIT TO ADD:

Almost forgot! Due to the shortened barrel length, the tilt angle will be increased and should be taken into account for the timing
and drop issue. The barrel will necessarily have to drop a bit faster
than for the 5-inch and Commander-length guns. That is to say, the drop needs to be a little more abrupt once it starts.

[John]

One thing that we need to pay attention to, is that the barrel does NOT have a bushing. Maybe the cone of the barrel is not properly shaped for the Officer's model? With no bushing, I bet there is a fat cone at the muzzle end. But that needs to be reduced in diameter in a very specific way, otherwise the barrel will not move up and down properly.

Pardon my simple language, but that's how I can express myself better. I ain't no gunsmith.

[1911Tuner]

The large cone at the muzzle serves to allow a close fit with the barrel without causing interference when the barrel locks up and links down. Barrel "springing is usually caused by the rear of the bushing bearing against the barrel in lockup at the top rear corner of the bushing, and the point of contact is behind the muzzle. This is the reason for relieving the bushing at this point. Sometimes it's necessary to lathe-turn the barrel to obtain clearance...but working on the bushing usually does the trick. The higher lockup angle of the shorter guns requires a larger range of motion in the up/down barrel function. Think of the slight flare on the muzzle of the 5-inch guns. The reduction in diameter behind the flare provides necessary clearance as the slide travels and still allows a close fit with the bushing in battery. Same principle at work.

[CJR]

John & 1911Tuner,

John,

In Kuhnhausen's Vol. 1 book, p66. he incorrectly states, in part, "The rear lug face should not be in contact with the frame at this point". His Fig. 94 then shows shows how to incorrectly clearance the rear of the bottom barrel lugs.

In Kuhnhausen's Vol. 2 book, p.197, he correctly states, "This ensures that when the barrel links down it will neither hit the moving slide, which would cause the gun to be unreliable, not hit the top of the frame, which would increase the impact loads experienced by the barrel and frame when the barrel comes to rest. The rearward motion of the barrrel will have been stopped by the barrrel's lower lugs hitting the frame impact surface and the downward motion of the barrel will have been stopped by the link in compression". Kuhnhausen further elaborates on p.196 what the correct impact area is, i.e rear of barrel lugs against vertical surface of frame.

1911Tuner,

I believe you misread what I stated. We all know in proper lock-up the top barrel lugs are in contact with the slide lugs and the bottom barrel lugs should be sitting on the slide stop and not the link. My point was that at linkdown(barrel down) and slide movement, there should be no contact between the slide and barrel. See Kuhnhausen's quote above.

In my view what impact area is hit by the barrel, i.e. top horizontal frame surface or vertical frame surface, has significant effects on the operation of a 1911, particularly a short barreled one. A top frame hit allows the barrel to bounce up prematurely as the slide is moving rearward and slow it down. However, if the back of the lower barrel lugs is only allowed to hit the vertical frame surface some benefical things happen,i.e. the barrel tends to stay in contact with the frame during slide movement at linkdown. The barrel then only rises when the breechface hit the barrel hood to start the battery process. If one looks at the forces in play it becomes clear, at least to me. At the instant of firing, the thrust on the slide via the barrel, etc., is a horizontal force. As soon as the link starts to pull the barrel down, the thrust force can be resolved, i.e. replaced by two other forces. At the linkpin, one force acts in a tangential direction and the other force acts in a centrifugal direction. When the rear of the bottom barrel lugs hits the vertical frame surface these forces get reversed, i.e. the reversed centrigual force now puts the link in compression, as Kuhnhausen states in his Vol 2. If we replace these reversed forces with one resultant force, we find this resultant reversed force will again be a horizontal force. This reversed, resultant horizontal force will tend to keep the barrel horizontal and in contact with the frame until the breechface hits the barrel hood and raises the barrel up into batery.

Now you may not believe what I've stated here and so be it. But if it wasn't so important, Kuhnhausen in his Vol. 2 book would not have devoted about four (4) pages to describing why this is so important.

Very best regards,

CJR

[CJR]

SteelArt,

I'm still not clear on what's causing your OM barrel to tilt down prematurely. If you magic-mark the inside of your slide, assemble the barrel and slide to the frame with no recoil spring, hold the barrel down with your finger and cycle the slide, are there wear marks on the slide? If yes, in my view, you need to remove more material from the slide tunnel (Kuhnhausen Vol.2, p.125) or barrel (Kuhnhausen Vol. 2, p. 191) until there is no contact between slide and barrel.

In my view, if the back of the bottom barrel lugs properly hit the vertical frame surface, in linkdown (barrel in contact with frame), the barrel should stay horizontal during slide movement.

Best regards,

CJR

[CJR]

1911Tuner,

In an earlier post you stated, "hood fitted with no more than 0.003 inch clearance per side, if accuracy is your goal ....."

With all due respect, this was something 'smiths advocated in the 50s. When a 1911 barrel is in battery, the slide should contact the top barrel slot at two places, and the bottom barrel lugs should be resting on the slide stop. This is so, because the slide lugs have a smaller radius curvature than the larger radius curvature of the top barrel slots. So when the barrel is forced into the slide lugs, only two contact points can exist. This is clearly shown in Patrick Sweeney's Gunsmithing:Pistols & Revolvers, p. 237, in fitting a Bar-Sto barrrel. Likewise, in Kart barrels, the two locating tabs in the rear barrel lug allow only two contact points and a vertical fitment adjustment. Kart goes on further to talk about side hood clearance in his booklet, p. 9, "There is no maximum clearance, except that it probably shouldn't be more than about 0.010". Also, the Gustin Patent placed two set screws into the slide so that the barrel only contacted the slide in two places with the bottom barrel lugs resting on the slide stop. Pictures, I have seen of the groups fired with the Gustin set screws were one holers at 25 yards. Finally, if I recall correctly, Armand Swenson would weld or braze pads on his barrel slots to allow a fit-up with two points of contact with the slide. The accuracy of his guns were also legendary.

Therefore, in my view as well as others, side hood clearance really doesn't affect accuracy providing the barrel has the proper two contact points in the slide and the bottom barrel lugs sit on the slide stop.

I guess will have to agree to disagree on this one comment.

Best regards,

CJR

[SteelArt]

CJR

The barrel does drag on the bottom of the barrel tunnel in the slide because there is no support at the front of the barrel. If I remove more material from the slide, it will cause the barrel to droop even further at the muzzle and I fear that the increased angle of the barrel will aggrevate the problem.
When the slide is back, the .575 diameter area of the barrel (behind the flared muzzle) is hanging unsupported in the .699 diameter tunnel in the slide. To remove enough material from the tunnel to keep the barrel from dragging in the slide would require removing a significant amount of material. When the slide is locked back, there is only about 1/4 inch of slide ahead of the chamber area of the barrel. If I remove enough material to clear the bottom of the slide, the barrel will next touch the reverse plug for the recoil spring. Where do you stop? The more material I take from the bottom of the tunnel, the more the barrel droops at the muzzle and the harder the top of the chamber area drags on the lugs in the top of the slide. The lowering of the front of the barrel effectually eliminates the clearance between the locking lugs in the top of the barrel and the slide. It is the friction of the barrel dragging both in the bottom and also the top of the slide tunnel that causes the barrel to rise on the link.
You noted that if the bottom barrel lugs properly contact the vertical frame surface, the barrel should stay horizontal because of horizontal force. I agree, that would be the situation under recoil, but this gun won't chamber a round and/or the the slide close to fire in the first place. When you try to close the slide on this gun, the barrel rises on the link, the barrel drops at the muzzle, the bottom front of the chamber area drags in the bottom of the slide tunnel and the top rear area of the chamber area drags in the top of the barrel tunnel. When the slide is about 1/4 inch from contacting the barrel hood, the front of the slide tunnel finally starts to pick up the muzzle of the barrel under the flared end. At that point, the barrel wedges with the top of the chamber area jammed into the top of the slide tunnel. If you push up, or back, on the muzzle of the barrel, the slide will snap shut. The gun will not chamber a cartridge because the bullet nose pushing forward on the barrel creates forward forces on the barrel that cause it to link up prematurely and jam the slide.
I'm still at a loss as to what to do next.........
SteelArt

[Hawkmoon]

In Kuhnhausen's Vol. 2 book, p.197, he correctly states, "This ensures that when the barrel links down it will neither hit the moving slide, which would cause the gun to be unreliable, not hit the top of the frame, which would increase the impact loads experienced by the barrel and frame when the barrel comes to rest. The rearward motion of the barrrel will have been stopped by the barrrel's lower lugs hitting the frame impact surface and the downward motion of the barrel will have been stopped by the link in compression". Kuhnhausen further elaborates on p.196 what the correct impact area is, i.e rear of barrel lugs against vertical surface of frame.
With all due respect for Mr. Kuhnhausen, he may be a fine gunsmith but he apparently isn't an engineer or a writer. What this quotation says is simply impossible.

The link is vertical when the barrel and slide are in battery. At that point, the weight of the barrel at the chamber end is supported by the link and the link is in compression.

Now, what happens as the pistol is fired and the barrel and slide begin to move rearward? The link goes into tension -- the barrel is pulling at it, and since the lower/forward end of the link is pinned in place by the slide stop, the link can't move. The result is the rotation of the link, which pulls the chamber down as the barrel moves rearward. The link is in tension as this occurs.

As the barrel reaches the end of it's movement, if the rearward movement is stopped by the vertical impact surface before the lug contacts the frame ... that's it. The link will not be in compression or tension. The force will be transferred into the frame and any load will be removed from the link at the moment of impact.

On the other hand, if the bottom of the lug contacts the frame before the vertical surface, downward motion of the barrel will be resisted by the frame, but the energy trying to move the barrel rearward (the horizontal vector) will be undiminished. The link will, therefore, will still be resisting the rearward motion of the barrel and will still be in tension. Compression in the link at this point is impossible.

[1911Tuner]

Lordy Lordy Lordy.The things that we read and think we understand...

CJR...With all due respect right back atcha...I think ya need to study on this barrel fitting question a little further. Wish I had the energy to go into it, but I just ain't got it today.

On one point:


>The barrel does drag on the bottom of the barrel tunnel in the slide because there is no support at the front of the barrel.<

Don't suppose it'd change your mind if I were to show ya how to set one up that doesn't drag...would it? 'Course, you'd have to make the trip over to my digs. Then we can study the barrel hood to slide clearance at the sides of the hood a little further.

The key to accuracy is repeatability. Repeatability comes from lack of sloppiness as the barrel cams up into lockup, so that it'll return to the same position between shots... and in keeping it from shifting when it's fired, while the bullet is in transit. Think about it...

[1911Tuner]

Since we're into this...

The "gunsmithing" books and videos generally assume that you have a basic understanding of the gun's function, and that the one you're working with is well within spec. Kuhnhausen's advice for a slide that isn't in-spec is replace it...but what if ya can't replace it? What if it's all ya got and ya gotta make it work?

Let's look at three hypothetical, though very common barrel fit issues and see how you'd go about obtaining a correct fit...and for the record, I don't consider fitting down as with the Kart Easy-Fit system or Swenson's brazed pads as correct. It'll work well enough if the dimensions
are mid-spec...but some just aren't.

Let's leave Kuhnhausen out of this for the sake of science. I've already established that he doesn't have a firm grip on how the gun functions...and what he does understand, he doesn't convey very clearly. I use Volume 2 often as a reference for some of the dimensions that I don't have committed to memory any more, but I thumbed through Volume one...briefly...and
tossed on the shelf. Don't think I've opened it since.

Problem 1:

You have a pistol with a sloppy barrel fit and want to upgrade. You opt for the Kart "Fit Down"
system with the pads. You've got a good vertical lockup, but have discovered that the
pads still have a lot of material left. Measurement of the vertical lock reveals that you've only got about half the depth of the first locking lug engaged....which is what the Easy-Fit system does...fit to the first lug (#1) only. Since this condition will allow the lug to become deformed quickly...within about 2500 rounds...you want to correct it so you can have a longer-lived
barrel.

How do you correct it? What other problems may be encountered after the correction?
These issues, if applicable, will also require attention in order to make the pistol serviceable, so don't leave them out.

Problem 2:

Your Easy-Fit barrel is dimensioned with the assumption that the slide that it will be fit to is within spec on all dimensions...and will allow a (hopefully) good depth/overlap engagement on the #1 lug...but your measurements reveal that fitting the hood will bring the #3 lug into engagement, leaving the desired #1 and #2 kissing air. Not good.

How do you correct it?

Problem 3:

You've got your barrel correctly fitted. The barrel is within spec on all dimensions and tolerances. The frame's vertical impact surface is right...but a cursory linkdown timing check reveals that the required clearance between the top of the barrel and the first lug bridge in the slide occurs at .300 inch of slide travel instead of the critical .250 inch. Knowing that this will fail to let the barrel unlock in time to avoid destroying the lugs...it must be corrected before firing the gun.

How do you correct it?

These adjustments can each be explained in an average-sized paragraph or less...so a 5-page, detailed short story isn't necessary...and it uses up expensive bandwidth. Please keep it brief.
Don't waste your time on the Kuhnhausen books. The answers aren't there. I have more, if you're interested in takin' a shot at'em. How about troubleshooting? Those are my specialty.

Before you start, understand a few things. I'm whatcha call a bona-fide ringer. I've been doin' the armorer thing with the Colt-Browning design since the spring of 1964, and have probably had my hands in more 1911s than the average gun owner has ever seen. ;)

Tic-Tock...Tic-Tock...

[SteelArt]

1911 tuner

I would love to have you show me how to set this gun up so it wouldn't drag, but I have no plans to be in NC in the near future (I'm in KS) and I don't think my customer wants to wait that long. I've set up plenty of 1911 guns that have barrel bushings and I understand how to clearance the tunnel so THEY don't drag, but this OM has me perplexed. What the h... is supposed to keep this barrel horizontal if it isn't supported at the front?
Right now, I am not concerned with accuracy or the fit of the hood at the sides. I can tell you that the hood to slide fit is sloppy. This gun is a candidate for a gunsmith fit barrel or a weld-up of the sides of this hood. The slide/barrel jam happens before the hood gets near breechface, so I don't think the hood fit is a concern at this point. This gun won't chamber a cartridge or lock up without wedging the barrel, so accuracy is also a small matter if it won't shoot. The bottom barrel lugs are good and the link is fitted properly, so I am using this barrel to diagnose the problem. I will decide whether to keep the barrel or toss it once I get the gun to feed and close.
_________
SteelArt

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Steelart,

Check to see if somebody stuck a long link on the gun. Some do that in hopes of tightening the vertical lock. Hold the barrel up in front of your face and slip the slidestop pin through the link. If the pin won't touch...or nearly touch...the lower lug as you swing it through its arc, the barrel is standing on the link. That can cause your bind if the link is grossly overlength.(within .005 inch)

You asked:

What the h... is supposed to keep this barrel horizontal if it isn't supported at the front?

Check your PMs... ;)

[SteelArt]

Thanks Tuner,

I've already checked the link. Eyeballed it and also measured. It's the correct length. Even put in a shorter link, then a longer one to see what affect they had. Neither changed the jam-up situation.

P.S. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input on this. I ain't cuttin' no more metal out of this gun until I'm pretty sure I'm killin' the right snake.
__________
SteelArt

[1911Tuner]

Thanks Tuner,

I've already checked the link. Eyeballed it and also measured. It's the correct length. Even put in a shorter link, then a longer one to see what affect they had. Neither changed the jam-up situation.

P.S. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input on this. I ain't cuttin' no more metal out of this gun until I'm pretty sure I'm killin' the right snake.
__________
SteelArt


Okay...Went back and re-read your post. I may be a litte unclear...

You're saying that the barrel moves forward and up before the breechface gets close to touching the barrel hood. Does this occur without a round feeding...or only WITH the round? How does it cycle when empty? Is the barrel camming up and wedging into the underside of the slide?

If it hangs up when cycled empty:

Does pointing the gun up at 45 degrees change anything for the better? Does pointing it straight down make it worse?

EDIT TO ADD:

Went back to the first post and read it over carefully...Remove the top-end and lay the barrel into the slide. Put the barrel into lockup position and push the rear into the lugs. When you let go, does the barrel "spring" back up...even a tiny bit? If so, you need to
reduce the tightness at the muzzle. It may not be dimensioned correctly for the coned barrel to allow it to fit the taper. The end of slide bearing on the sharp taper and is pulling the barrel into lockup too early.\, causing interference between the rear corners of the barrel lugs and the front faces of the slide lugs. Too early for the barrel lugs to mesh into the slots.


Standin' by...

Oh yeah...

Tic-Tock...Tic-Tock...

[John]

Went back to the first post and read it over carefully...Remove the top-end and lay the barrel into the slide. Put the barrel into lockup position and push the rear into the lugs. When you let go, does the barrel "spring" back up...even a tiny bit? If so, you need to reduce the tightness at the muzzle. It may not be dimensioned correctly for the coned barrel to allow it to fit the taper.

Johnny, this is what I've pointed out in our email exchange last week. This is not a plain barrel, it is a bushing-less one.

[1911Tuner]

Johnny, this is what I've pointed out in our email exchange last week. This is not a plain barrel, it is a bushing-less one.

Works the same way, bossman. If the bushing is too tight on a standard setup, the barrel gets into a bind as the bushing tries to slide up on it.
The bushingless coned barrels, use that taper to effect a tight lockup, but if the slide bore isn't machined correctly, it can't completely ride forward onto the taper.

Anyway...I'm 99% sure that I've got this one nailed, and it's got nuttin' ta do with da muzzle and da slide fit. Just wanted to cover all bases before droppin' da bomb. I just hope that Art hasn't killed the slide with all that clearancin' work he's done. Sorry for leavin' this one for so long. I got preoccupied with emmidio's equations over on the other thread.I could be wrong, since it's tough to find a bug like this without havin' the gun on the bench...but we'll see. ;)

Standin' by...

[SteelArt]

When cycled empty:
If the gun is pointed up at 45 degrees, the gun cycles perfectly. If the gun is horizontal, or pointed any degree downward, the barrel cams up and wedges into the top of the slide. When the gun is tipped downward, you can see the barrel drop at the muzzle and lift into the top of the slide at the chamber. In doing so, it also moves forward (as it would in normal linkup into the locking lugs), away from the feed ramp in the frame, which prevents a round from feeding properly into the chamber.

With a round:
The bullet pushing on the barrel has the same effect as pointing the gun downward. The barrel cams up and wedges into the top of the slide.

When the gun is jammed in this manner, you can push the barrel back into the gun at the muzzle and the slide will snap shut.

The barrel does not spring up and will attain 100% lockup in the slide. When the gun is assembled, it only has about 70% lockup in the top lugs. So, I didn't think that muzzle fit was the issue.

[CJR]

SteelArt,

Diagnosing a gun, without seeing it, is always tough. On my OM, at slide lock, the slide is rearward about a 1/4 inch past the barrel hood. When I hand cycle the slide forward, the barrel stays roughly horizontal until the breechface hits the barrrel hood and raises it into battery. There is no contact between my reverse plug and the barrel. At the muzzle of my OM barrel, the width of the maximum diameter is about 1/4 inch, after that it tapers down.

Since you stated this is a bushingless slide, does your barrel have a wider width at the muzzle than 1/4 inch? If so, the muzzle area in the slide may have been bored at a slight downward angle and this may be prematurely raising the barrel as it goes into battery. A wider contact surface at the muzzle and a misaligned bored muzzle area would automatically cause a barrel to prematurely cam up at the rear of the barrel before the breechface hit the barrel hood.

If it were my piece, I'd start miking everything, i.e. frame, barrel, slide etc. to see if I had any grossly out of spec parts. If you need some dimensions, I've got about 3 or 4 OM barrels, a couple fof slides, and a frame laying around that I could mike for you so that you could check yours.

Best regards,

CJR

[1911Tuner]

When cycled empty:
If the gun is pointed up at 45 degrees, the gun cycles perfectly. If the gun is horizontal, or pointed any degree downward, the barrel cams up and wedges into the top of the slide. When the gun is tipped downward, you can see the barrel drop at the muzzle and lift into the top of the slide at the chamber. In doing so, it also moves forward (as it would in normal linkup into the locking lugs), away from the feed ramp in the frame, which prevents a round from feeding properly into the chamber.

With a round:
The bullet pushing on the barrel has the same effect as pointing the gun downward. The barrel cams up and wedges into the top of the slide.

When the gun is jammed in this manner, you can push the barrel back into the gun at the muzzle and the slide will snap shut.

The barrel does not spring up and will attain 100% lockup in the slide. When the gun is assembled, it only has about 70% lockup in the top lugs. So, I didn't think that muzzle fit was the issue.

Bingo! This is a pretty common problem with the shorties, and has been for 20-odd years.

The locking lugs' location in relation to the slide lugs and slots are out of spec.
The rear corners of the barrel lugs are making contact with the front faces of the slide lugs...or in direct opposition to the abutments when the gun is fired.
Essentially an issue with the barrel cam-up/linkup timing occurring too early.
Note that individual parts' specs may be within allowable ranges, but tolerance stacking when the two are assembled throw the group out.

Check to see if the breechface is making hard contact with the face of the barrel chamber, and pushing the barrel forward prior to the hood contacting...
which it likely is. If it's close, you can scrape a bevel on the rear corners of the barrel locking lugs to provide a little delay in the lugs trying to enter the slots in the slide. (You can't do this to the #1 lug, since it doesn't have a rear corner.) It's highly likely that it's only one lug that is causing the problem. Buff any bluing off the tops of the lugs and coat with layout fluid
or even a sharpie marker. Induce the stoppage, and bump the barrel to let the slide snap forward. The removed color will reveal which lug...or lugs...that is/are causing the jam.

If the stoppage isn't eliminated, go back the chamber face to breechface contact and LIGHTLY relieve the barrel by filing straight across the area UNDER the hood. Be careful not to cut into the underside of the hood. Maximum of .003 inch of material removal. That should take care of it.

CJR. Sorry mah fren. Much to learn you have. Teach you I will. ;)

[CJR]

Hawkmoon,

In response to your email to me. According to Kuhnhausen's Vol.1, inside back cover, they talk about Mr. Kuhnhausen's experience. I quote, "Although his background is mechanical engineering, he is more an old-fashioned craftsman, as he will readily tell you." I would therefore assume, from that statement, that Mr. Kuhnhausen is a Mechanical Engineer.

When a 1911 barrel is in battery the link is not vertical. It is slightly forward of vertical. See Kart's New Math for Shooters booklet, pg. 7, Figure 3 which clearly shows this to be the case.

The link goes into compression when the barrel slams into the frame. It is a simple calculation to calculate the significant velocity that the slide/barrel has as it is moving rearward under recoil. When it slams into the frame it rebounds and the reversed forces put the link into compression when the impact area is the rear of the bottom barrel lugs with the vertical frame surface. Likewise the resultant rebound force, for this impact case, will always be a horizontal force and the barrel will typically stay down until raised by the barrrel hood. Metal pieces moving at a high velocity cannot hit a metal surface, stop instantly and not rebound. If it did that, then all the impact laws of Physics would be false. If the barrel hits the horizontal top of the frame first, the resultant force on the barrel will always be upwards so that the barrel can rebound upward during the rearward movement of the slide. If that happens, the slide can get slowed down by the rising barrel and that places additional tensile forces on the link until the link eventually fails. How a barrel responses(i.e bouncing up or staying down) depends on what acting impact forces are reversed.

Kuhnhausen's Vol. 2 talks about the link being in compression and goes into great detail describing the effects. I might add that this section in Kuhnhausen's Vol.2 was contributed by Schuemann Barrels, Inc. Therefore, in my view, the compression of the link is not impossible. It is only impossible if you assume there is no rebound of the barrel after it hits the vertical frame impact surface, i.e. barrel comes to a complete stop on impacting frame.

Best regards,

CJR

[SteelArt]

At slide lock, with the bottom barrel lugs against the frame, the slide is about 3/16 rearward of the barrel hood. When the gun is tipped downward at the muzzle, the barrel moves about 1/32" forward as it lifts on the link.

The maximum diameter of the barrel is .696" and is about 3/16" long. The tunnel in the slide is .699".

With the front of the gun tipped upward and the barrel is down on the frame, with the bottom barrel lugs against the vertical surface in the frame, as the slide is moved forward, the front of the slide starts to pick up the bottom of the barrel under the flared area about 3/8" from the muzzle of the barrel. When the gun is held muzzle down, the muzzle of the barrel drops and the barrel moves forward about 1/32". As the slide is moved forward, the front of the slide begins to pick up the barrel under the flared area about 9/16" from the muzzle of the barrel.

Continuing to move the slide forward as the gun is tipped downward at the muzzle, the slide will stop when the bottom of the slide tunnel is about 5/32" from the muzzle of the barrel. At this point, the slide still needs to move forward another 3/16" to contact the hood of the barrel.

I haven't miked everything yet, but have checked enough to be fairly certain that there is nothing grossly out of spec. I will check further though.

One other variable that I have been working on:
When the gun came in to my shop, it had vertical slop in the barrel at linkup. When you pushed down on the top of the chamber area, the barrel would move down. The slide stop pin hole in the frame is .203", the pin hole in the link is .200". The original slide stop pin was only .193". I didn't like this much clearance, so I replaced the pin with a .198" one. I would have liked to use a .200" or .201" pin, but I could not find one that size with an extended finger tab. The vertical slop is almost eliminated now, but I wonder if the horizontal slop in the linkage may contribute to the problem. I calculate the slop to be .005".

[SteelArt]

1911 Tuner

Just saw your last post after I sent my last. I understand what you are saying about early lockup because the slide is pushng the barrel, but the slide isn't that far forward when the jam-up happens. See my last post. The breechface is still 3/16" from any part of the barrel hood/chamber when everything comes to a halt.

[1911Tuner]

Art,

Your last post indicates that the early linkup timing is a little worse than I thought. Try a light bevel on the front corners of the lugs...LIGHT...in addition to the work on the chamber face and rear lug corner bevel. It won't hurt anything since the barrel tilts up at a more acute angle. I'm pretty sure that the chamber face cut will solve the problem, or get very close. Take as little as possible off the #1 lug wall if that's the area that's in a bind.

The link doesn't sit dead vertical in battery...in a correctly spec-ed gun with a correct barrel lug fit. it overcenters by about a half degree...or maybe a minute or two more. Some few do stand the link vertical, and do pretty well, though it's not to spec. These normally exhibit early unlock/linkdown timing.
How well they run depends on HOW early that is. Again...Kuhnhausen assumes that all is within spec...and it just ain't necessarily so.

CJ...Figgered out the answers to those questions yet?

Tic-Tock...Tic-Tock..

[SteelArt]

Tuner,

Sorry.....but I still don't think this problem has anything to do with linkup timing. The jam-up happens before the slide gets anywhere near the linkup phase. The breechface is still 3/16" away from the hood, and linkup start, when the barrel jams in the slide.

I've already beveled the lugs and it made no difference in this problem, because the barrel wedges on top of the chamber before the slide gets close to the barrel lugs.

I'm thinking this is a three point jam between the barrel and the slide. I know that one point is were the bottom of the barrel is touching the bottom of the slide tunnel at the muzzle. I know that another point of contact is at the top of the barrel chamber area against the lug area in the top of the slide. The last point of contact is the big question. Is the barrel dragging the bottom of the slide tunnel under the chamber area? (I know that it does slightly when the barrel is fully linked down, but is the barrel still dragging when the chamber area is up against the top of the side?) Is the link vertical enough for the barrel to be riding the link? Is it somewhere else? How do I find this third point of contact and what do I do about it?

:butthead:

[1911Tuner]

1911 Tuner

Just saw your last post after I sent my last. I understand what you are saying about early lockup because the slide is pushng the barrel, but the slide isn't that far forward when the jam-up happens. See my last post. The breechface is still 3/16" from any part of the barrel hood/chamber when everything comes to a halt.

Yep...That's why I posted my last post.

Curious...Where and how much did you "clearance" the slide? If gravity...and the excessive clearance in the top of the slide...allows the barrel to move high enough as it shifts forward, you may not be able to correct it with the bevel on the lug corners. Hope you're not lookin' at a killed slide, bro.

Read this and let it sink in...then go back and imagine that you're a millimeter tall, watchin' the cycle in slow motion.

The barrel is timed into the slide as the slide pushes it forward. As it moves forward, it also cams/links up. If gravity ties it up before the slide can get to it, it HAS to be moving forward and up too early to let the lugs mesh. Now...Determine WHERE they're hitting the slide lugs. Light jam, just before
battery suggests rear barrel corners, front slide corners. Jamming .187 inch
before slide contact suggests front barrel lug corners/rear slide lug corners.

Light bevel at the front barrel lug corners is an old armorer's trick to help cam the barrel lugs into the slide with a tight hood to breechface fit (early linkup) by allowing the slide to move just a hair further forward as the lugs try to mesh. If this doesn't cure it, it won't hurt a thing. Light bevels...maximum of 20% depth of the lug itself...MAXIMUM...at 45 degrees to the lug wall. Scrape the corner for the whole radius of the lug...all the way around the sides. Use the layout fluid to see where and what is hitting.

[SteelArt]

I took about .005" from the bottom of each side of the slide tunnel, starting from the back of the recoil spring plug area back through the locking lug area. This much material removal was necessary to get the barrel to bed on the frame and contact the vertical frame surface. The rest of the slide tunnel I polished with a lug iron and only removed enough material to smooth it up. The deeper machining marks are still present. When the barrel is linked down onto the frame bed, there is .020" clearance between the barrel and the slide lugs.

I don't think I have killed the slide, but I do not want to cut any more until I have an idea what I am dealing with.

The barrel is definitely moving up and forward too early, but is wedging even before it gets to the locking lugs. I think friction and/or gravity is pulling it up and forward, but so too does a cartridge when it is entering the chamber.

[1911Tuner]

Art...When you push the muzzle back to let the slide snap into battery...How far approximately does the barrel have to move back before the wedge releases? Is it just bare minimum amount? Or do you really have to move it? Do the layout fluid check and find out which lug(s) are creating the stoppage. My guess is that it's going to be the middle lug. Create a light bevel on that lug and retest the gun. When checking, create the stoppage, and push on the muzzle gradually until it releases the slide. Repeat 2-3 times and check the contact.

I'm assuming that the clearancing on the slide was done at the sides where the barrel's radius contacts? This is correctly done by clearancing the barrel...not the slide. (For future reference) Always cut, file, grind, etc. on
the cheaper of the two mating parts, whenever possible.

[SteelArt]

Tuner

You only have to move the barrel a minimum amount. With the recoil spring in, a trigger pull gauge indicates that it takes about 3.5lbs. of pressure, depending on how vigerously you allow the slide to go forward and create the wedge.
This gun will slam shut. That is, if you release the slide stop and allow the recoil spring to bring the slide forward, it will close. Likewise, it will chamber a cartridge if you let the recoil spring close the slide, but I have noticed that the dummy rounds that I have used to test the gun have had the bullets pushed back into the casing. The gun will not close without hanging up if you ease the slide forward by hand.

Slide clearancing was done in the area as illustrated in Kuhnhausen's volume 2 book on page 191. This was done on some ordinance guns; and no, I didn't get the idea there. I learned it from another 1911 smith. :) The book states that the ordinance guns were clearanced .030" plus. I only removed about .005", so I don't think that I did any damage. I will though take heed of your advice to cut on the cheaper part.

I didn't have time to work on the gun today as I was finishing a custom knife for another customer. I'll be dragging the gun out to the shop tomorrow and will check for contact areas. Also going to get the mike out again and go over the gun as CJR suggested.

Got to leave the hacienda tonight, so I won't be back on the 'puter till tomorrow morning. I'll let you know what I find on the gun. Thanks for all of the advice to date and if you think of anything else, please let me know.

[1911Tuner]

okay...I'm clear on where you mean now. Ordnance slides were cleanced there when they wre found to be out of spec. The work was done to bring'em in so they could be made serviceable. haven't seen a Commercial Colt or aftermarket slide that required it.
You say Caspian made the slide? Interesting...

Since it's just barely hanging, go ahead and find the lug that's contacting...it will be on the front corner of the barrel lug. Bevel it lightly. I'm a little concerned over the 70% depth. that would put the vertical lug engagement at .350 inch...Not nearly enough for a strong lockup, especially if only one lug is takin' the brunt in the horizontal plane.

Whose barrel is it? Hard-fit or drop-in?

[1911Tuner]

Okay! Sorry to jump off in a rush. Dogs had to be tended to...supper...TV shows, etc.

On reducing material in the slide to provide more barrel drop clearance, the risk that we run is in thinning the area adjacent to the lug corners, whcih can lead to cracking through to the slide rails.

If the slide is gauged and found to be out of spec, it's allowable by enough to bring it into spec, but it's always best to determine whether the slide dimensioning is responsible for the problem, or if it's something else. The barrel diameter can be out or close to maximum. Tolerance stacking between slide and barrel here is very possible too. The height of the frame bridge itself can cause the problem...also adjustable for a maximum of .003 inch removal. Clearancing the sides of the barrel is the best approach, often also used in conjunction with slight metal removal in the slide. Always better to get the desired clearance from many places than all from one. In other words...de-stacking the tolerances in your favor.

Preoccupation and haste caused me to overlook exactly what Art was telling us, and I got the idea that he had removed material in the top of the slide bridge to reduce the barrel binding that he had...My bad, and apologies to all.
Didn't realize that he was addressing two separate issues.
The cure is, of course, to eliminate the interference at whichever lug corner is
catching the slide.

Art...The barrel sounds like it's camming up too abruptly. Are you absolutely sure that the barrel isn't riding the link around the forward lug radius...even a tiny bit? Be sure of it...Double-check. If the pin is standing off the lug by even the thickness of a sheet of paper, eliminating that may allow the barrel to time correctly into the slide. Elongating the top of the link hole by enough to let the pin touch the lug at the radius and into battery may well cure it.
Find the lug that's got it in a bind and lightly bevel the corner too.

The shallow vertical engagement is still a concern, so go easy on the bevel.

I'll check back later tomorrow...Gonna be a Doggies-at-the-Vet Day...All freakin' day long, unless I can bribe somebody to help so I can make it in one trip...45 miles one way.

[CJR]

SteelArt,

Are you sure the bottom of the barrel is not being prematurely cammed upwards by the top of a large head on the recoil spring guide? Magic mark the top of the guide(i.e. concave portion) and the underside of the barrel just behind where the cylindrical part of the barrel ends and the chamber area begins(i.e. it's the downward taper section). Then hand cycle the slide to see if the top of the guide is prematurely touching the underside of the barrel. Early contact here will prematurely raise the barrel. Then assemble the slide to the frame, without the recoil spring, plug, and guide, and cycle it to see if the barrel links up properly or is still malfunctioning as before. If the barrel is still being cammed up prematurely, then I would think there is still some part of the slide hitting the barrel before the breechface hits the barrel hood. What kind of recoil spring/s are in this piece? Could the springs be bowing/buckling outwards and contacting the barrel? If so, guide rods can cure that.

It wouldn't hurt to Magic mark the sides of the barrel hood, the slide recess where the hood fits into and the underside of the hood on the extractor side and check for contact points. Though from what you've described this shouldn't be an issue. In my experience, when I get into a problem like this I don't trust anything and just start miking everything. Good luck.

1911Tuner: I must have missed your questions to me. Where are they? I like Pop Quizzes!

Best regards,

CJR

[1911Tuner]

CJR QUote:

>>Are you sure the bottom of the barrel is not being prematurely cammed upwards by the top of a large head on the recoil spring guide? Magic mark the top of the guide...<

Possible...Not probable. The guide rod doesn't touch the barrel except when it's fully down and in bed...unless it's oversized enough to keep it from falling to bed...and if it's that big, it probably won't even fit the tunnel, or will bind hard with the slide. True to spec, it should't even touch when the barrel is down, though some do contact in the radius. I cut'em for clearance when I find 'em like that. Interferes with full linkdown if a little dirt gets in the way, dontcha know...Good thinkin' though. These things are usually somethin' simple, and we go blind lookin' for the complicated.
A simpler way to check it is to just remove the recoil system and see if the bug goes away. Saves all that messy stuff. ;)

The quiz is post #18, 2 pages back. Have fun! :p

EDIT TO ADD:

Ya might also wanna check the sticky at the top of the Gunsmithin' page. John musta stuck it up while I took my afternoon nap. it might help ya along the way. The advice has helped a few others that I've trained.

[SteelArt]

Well.....I've spent most of the day with a micrometer and I cannot find anything grossly out of spec. As far a tolarance stacking, I haven't put a pencil to it, but I think this problem is more than that.

Tuner,
The barrel is a drop in, standard type OM barrel, supplied by Cylinder and Slide. Your question about the barrel riding the link around the lug radius caught my attention. It certainly is, and I thought I saw the problem. The front of the barrel lug area is cut 90 degrees to the barrel....not angled as is the typical 1911 barrel. I thought that someone had cut the angle off of the front of the lugs. Then.......I saw the illistrations in Khunhausen's books. Volume 2 page 139 and volume 1 page 21. These barrels are made that way. So is the barrel for the Commander. I assume that the angle has been removed to make room for the recoil spring guide in these short guns. With no angle on the lugs, these barrels have to ride the link into battery.

I checked to see that the barrel sets on the frame with no interference from the slide. It does. But, as the gun is tipped muzzle down, the barrel rocks forward and down to contact the slide tunnel again. I removed more material from the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to reduce the amount of contact that the barrel has with the slide tunnel, but I only succeded in providing more room for the barrel to tip. It appears impossible to keep the barrel from dragging in the slide.

As far as finding a lug corner that is binding, we're not even close to that. The barrel/slide jam happens when the hood is about 3/16" from the breechface. Marking the barrel lugs and pushing the slide into the jam-up shows the lugs are hitting directly on top of each other. The marker was removed directly on the top of both of the barrel lugs and also a spot 3/16" from the front of the chamber area. Unlock a barrel in a slide and push it 3/16" away from the breechface and that is were this thing is stopping.

Here's the way it happens........
Beginning with the slide all the way back, as soon as you start to move it forward, the barrel starts to ride the link up because it is dragging in the slide tunnel. The barrel moves forward until the forward surface of the bottom lug hits the slide stop pin. At this point, the top of the chamber area is against the top of the slide tunnel. Moving the slide forward, the barrel will skitter along with these two points of contact. When the slide reaches the pioint of picking up the front of the barrel, the third point of contact is acheived and the barrel/slide assembly jams. It is now wedged at the top of the chamber area, at the bottom front of the slide tunnel and on the slide stop pin.

Im still confounded by this.

[1911Tuner]

Art...dammitalltohellandgone...It almost sounds like the barrel is tilting at a downward angle at the rear when it hits the bed, and as the slide rides forward, it bears against the top of the chamber on that angle...and pushes it forward and up. Like a 3-point jam/failure to go to battery...except it's with the barrel instead of the cartridge. Just for chuckles, put a double thickness of typing or notebook paper in the frame bed to see if that helps. Might need to use a dab of silicone sealer to hold it in place.

Have you checked the vertical dimensions from the slidestop pin centerline to the top of the frame rails? Don't forget to add the slide rail thickness to see how high the top-end is sitting on the frame. if the stacked height is more than about .010 inch too high, that might be your bug. Not as much of an issue with a 5-inch gun, since the barrel arc is shorter...but it gets more critical as the barrel gets shorter.

[John]

Excuse me, but I have a question here (and pardon me if I jump in deep waters here).

As far as I know, the Officers model standard barrel is using a bushing. A very large one but still it is a bushing. If I remember correctly in the begining of this thread, you said this is a bushingless barrel. I checked C&S site, but couldn't find anything particular for an OM.

Maybe we are overlooking something obvious here?

[1911Tuner]

Hey John,

As far as I know, the barrels are the same. It's the slide that's machined to acommodate the coned barrel.

I think I'm about to get a handle on this one...Many things are outta whack.

[SteelArt]

I didn't answer CJR's question about the recoil spring guide. The barrel is not touching the guide. The barrel slide assembly will jam when pulled forward by the recoil spring and also without the recoil spring and guide as you push the slide by hand. Also, I have tried it with the supplied link, with a longer link, with a shorted link and with no link at all. The barrel/slide assembly jammed in each of these trials.

I think the issue is simply that the barrel will not stay down on the frame bed. When the gun is tipped muzzle down, gravity pulls the muzzle of the barrel forward and down. This lifts the chamber area of the barrel off of the frame bed and causes the bottom barrel lugs to start climbing the stop pin. The lifting off of the bed and climbing the pin is stopped by the top of the chamber area contacting the top of the slide tunnel. The slide will move forward, skidding along the top of the chamber area until it starts to pick up the barrel at the front of the slide. At this point, the assembly assumes a three point wedge. Top of the barrel, bottom lug on the pin and front of the slide at the bottom of the barrel.

So, the question I have had all along...........what keeps the barrel on the frame bed in this type of gun? With no support of the barrel at the muzzle, something else has got to keep the barrel down and back. I am starting to wonder if these guns HAVE to have the barrel ride the bottom of the slide tunnel for support. Granted, that is not the typical setup in a 1911 because of the added friction slowing operation, but what else can control the attitude of these barrels? I have removed about .005" from the bottom of the slide tunnel and about .004" from the bottom lower corners of the barrel to try to create clearance between the barrel and the slide. All that I have accomplished is to provide more clearance for the barrel to tip muzzle down before it again bottoms in the slide tunnel. The resulting added tilt angle complicates the chambering of a cartridge because it increases the angular difference between the chamber and the round as it enters the chamber. Hence, the bullets being pushed back in my dummy rounds because the bullet is impacting the top of the chamber at a sharp angle.

The math:

Stop pin centerline to top of the frame rail is .446. This measurement is near the minimum of .445.

Bottom of slide to top of slide tunnel is .849. This measurement is near the maximum of .850.

Aggregate slide/frame stack height works out to 1.074, which is just under the maximum of 1.075.

The bottom of the barrel bed to center of stop pin distance is .375. This is a bit high. The spec is .373 - .005.

The chamber area of the barrel is .688. This is under the spec of .696. But, this helps to offset the overheight barrel bed.

Clearance between the top of the barrel and the top of the slide tunnel at linkdown is .011.

Top lug engagement is .038.

If it turns out that these guns require the barrel to ride the slide tunnel for control. I may have killed the barrel, and I hope not the slide. The owner of this gun is coming to my shop tomorrow and is bringing a Detonics pistol that is a bushingless design. I hope to get some ideas fom it.

Waddaya think now boys???????

[John]

As far as I know, the barrels are the same. It's the slide that's machined to acommodate the coned barrel.

Johnny, I am not sure. A friend who had an Officers, replaced his barrel (a normal Colt barrel with bushing) with a Schuemann barrel and he didn't alter the slide, at least not at the muzzle end. The Schuemann barrel's outside diameter was proper to fit in the slide without any bushing.

[1911Tuner]

Art,

Nothing keeps the barrel on the bed. Lock the slide back and the barrel will move fore and aft freely for a short distance. When it moves forward, it also moves up a little.
No way around it. that's why one of the tweaks that I do to reduce a hard stem bind is to get the barrel off the link and onto the lower lug.

The problem isn't that the barrel moves up. That's inevitable. It's either moving up too early and/or too abruptly, or it's too far below horizontal at the rear. Lowering the front will help, but no way to tell how much it needs to drop, or whether it'll solve the problem. The specs look okay, and stack in the right direction.

Did you try the shim between the bed and the rear of the barrel yet?

John...The difference is very slight, but if you measure the standard slide with the bushing in...measure the thickness of the bushing walls...and subtract, you'll find that the diameter is close to the same as with the bushingless slide. The difference is in the way the end of the bushingless slide is machined to work with the barrel cone to take advantage of the
taper's tendency to self-center. That a given barrel dropped into a given slide and worked only means that the slide's bore diameter slid over the barrel's major diameter, and fit within tolerance specs. They might not on the next try...just like a given barrel and a given bushing. Might work...might not.

[CJR]

1911Tuner,

I read your Post #18 and your comments on Kuhnhausen(& Schuemann Barrels), Kart, and Swenson. Likewise, I read the problems you postulated and your request to give only a paragraph answer. Since I use Kuhnhausen/Schuemann Barrel/Kart techniques in barrel fitting and you feel that they don't have a firm grasp on how the 1911 functions, any answer that I would give to your questions would be, in your mind, wrong. Looks like I failed all your test problems.

Until someone better comes along I'll just continue to follow what these people recommend in barrel fitting. I happen to respect what these people(i.e. Kuhnhausen/Schuemanm, Kart) say. It's obvious that we have a fundamental difference of opinion on the competence of these people. That's OK. But at least they have published their thoughts for all to see, read, and evaluate. Maybe you should consider publishing a book on the 1911 for all to see and evaluate. I'd buy a copy.

I have no doubts that your statement, ".........have probably had my hands in more 1911s than the average gunowner has ever seen", is true. But I doubt very seriously that you've had more 1911s in your hands then Kuhnhausen+Schuemann+ Kart combined. Again we'll have to agree to disagree on our respective opinions of these people.

I would also like to suggest that we limit our exchanges to solving 1911 problems based on our collective experiences. Look forward to reading more of your future posts.

Very best regards,

CJR

[CJR]

SteelArt,

Tonight, I'll mike some of my OM parts and get back to you with some numbers. Maybe that will help you.

Best regards,

CJR

[1911Tuner]

Awwww CJ... C'mon lad...Those are Pistol Rebuilding 101 issues! :p
Getcher thinkin' cap on. It'll come to ya.

It ain't barrel fittin' technique that I'm askin' for, anyway. It's in correcting problems that will arise sooner or later... no matter how you fit it.

And no...I don't consider the Swenson/Kart EZ-Fit "Fit down from the Top" approach as the right way. It assumes that all the critical dimensions are mid-spec...and that just ain't the way it goes much of the time.

And, on all three combined....I wouldn't bet on it. Got any idea how many 1911 pistols there were in the armories on the NC Marine bases in the Vietnam era?

[wichaka]

CJR, have been tryin' to get him to write a book for a long time...............

Tuner........the time has come my friend!

[1911Tuner]

CJR, have been tryin' to get him to write a book for a long time...............

Tuner........the time has come my friend!

Seems like ever' dang time I get started, I get a virus that wipes it all out.
maybe I need a laptop that won't get connected. :rolleyes:

[wichaka]

Print it off as you go, or back it up onto a disc...........but FOR CRYING IN THE NIGHT MAN...........WRITE THE BOOK!

DON'T MAKE ME COME OUT THERE AND STUFF WILSONS IN ALL YOUR 1911'S!

[1911Tuner]

Print it off as you go, or back it up onto a disc...........but FOR CRYING IN THE NIGHT MAN...........WRITE THE BOOK!

DON'T MAKE ME COME OUT THERE AND STUFF WILSONS IN ALL YOUR 1911'S!

Did ya'll hear him threaten my pistols? That was uncalled for!

:D


CJ...I really don't mean to come off like a jerk. I'm just tryin' to reach into your head and turn on a light. I'm gonna try to break this to ya as gentle
as I can here, but these statements will go against the grain.

First...There are a dozen ways to build the gun wrong and still have it work...even work well. That's one of the great things about the design. It's very forgiving. partly because it doesn't demand precision in order to be functional.

Modern-day barrel fitting is done incorrectly by a good many smiths...and they know it. The reason most of'em do it is because the gun has been
used in competition for so long, that the customer has come to expect...even demand...match-grade accuracy, but the gun was never meant to be a target pistol, and fitting the barrel to bare minimum headspace and vault-like lockup results in essentially a variant pistol...just like the Colt Gold Cup. Additionally...BECAUSE most of the bullseye matches and action games are shot with ammo that is loaded to below full-pressure specs, the lockup doesn't need to be as strong or as durable as the full potential that CORRECT fitting will provide. This doesn't mean that these smiths are fitting the barrels badly. They actually fit them nicely, and the guns are wicked accurate.

Hypothetical situation:

A young lad with a gleam in his eye walks into your shop with a pistol in hand and informs you that he intends to shoot a steady diet of .45 Super in it, and wants a match-grade barrel for the project...and he goes on to explain that he knows about overpressure and increased wear and tear...but wnats it done anyway. Are you going to get a Kart Easy-Fit with the handy-dandy little pads that let the barrel lock anywhere on the arc...and hope for the best? Or are you going to bring everything into optimum specs and fit for a full strength lockup?

Stay with me for a minute...and consider this carefully. If the barrel is fit for maximum strength, you can weld a rod in the barrel in such a way as to prevent the bullet from moving at all...which also requires machining the end of the rod to match the bullet nose profile. A flat end will let the bullet deform
under pressure, and hence the base will move a little.

You can then chamber a GI-spec hardball round and fire the gun...and it won't break. (We're assuming that the chamber doesn't have flaws that would fail under pressure.) This gun may lock up like a vault and it might not.
that's not the most important consideration.

When I talk about building the gun correctly, I mean making a carbon-copy of the guns that passed the Army's torture tests in 1911...and even surpassing them. C'mon now...You don't really think that Browning grabbed random a gun off the line and headed for the proving grounds with it...didja? No. He wanted to get his pistol accepted, and Colt wanted that lucrative contract badly...so they hand-built to optimum specs, and match-grade accuracy wasn't their primary concern. Reliability and durability took top honors as long as accuracy was acceptable. Above all, they didn't want the guns to break in mid-test.

So...everybody can scream about tight guns and tiny groups at impractical distances, and the builders will continue to provide that because they can
and because it's demanded. After all...They're in business to make money by
giving the customer what he wants. That's partly why I'm NOT in business any more. I'm not under any pressure to finish the job and I can take my time
in massaging the gun into optimum specs, or as close as an individual gun will alow me to. Some have been completed in days, or even hours...and some have required weeks. I can work until I get tired or frustrated...take a day
or two off...and go back to it.

Cheers!

[1911Tuner]

BTT...Tic-Tock...Tic-Tock

[CJR]

SteelArt,

I did some miking on my OM parts. I used a digital caliper, instead of my precision measuring instruments, to get some quick ball-park figures. If you want some parts remeasured let me know.

Before I get into listing the part measurements, let me tell you what I did with my OM. First I removed the bushing, guide rod, reverse plug,and spring and moved the slide to the rear. Though the barrel had a slight droop, as the slide went forward the barrel went into the slide properly and into full battery. Next, I installed the bushing and placed a wooden dowel in the barrel. I pulled down hard on the dowel, as I moved the slide forward, to try to simulate the three-point jam you described. There was hardly any muzzle droop and my OM would not 3-point jam. As soon as the bottom ID of the bushing contacted the barrel, the barrel became aligned perfectly with the slide and the OM went into battery properly. I assume your bushingless slide is hitting the bottom of the muzzle and not the top of the muzzle as well. If its hitting the top of the muzzle, the barrel may be much too high for the installed slide.

The following abbreviations were used for the measurements; Ct=Colt, Cs=Caspian, W=Wilson, Bs=Bar Sto.

1. Stop pin C/L to top of the frame rail is 0.450(Ct)
2. Bottom of slide to top of slide tunnel; 0.853(Cs), 0.860(Ct)
3. Bottom of barrel bed to center of stop pin distance; 0.352(Ct)
4. Chamber diameter (12 & 6 O'clock); 0.692(W), 0.687 (Bs), 0.683(Ct)

I also measured from the top of the chamber to the C/L of the lug pin hole and got ; 0.868 (W), 0.873(Ct), 0.879(Bs).

Hope this helps. If you need more measurements or remeasurements, let me know.

Very best regards,

CJR

[1911Tuner]

Poor Art. I fear that he has given in to his primal urges and taken a large, heavy hammer to the little abortion.

Oh yeah...Time's up! Shall I start a new thread? :)

[SteelArt]

Sorry that I was incommunicado yesterday. Had a little family emergency. My youngest daughter's lunitic boyfreind tried to strangle her yesterday morning. Can't blame him much, I get the urge to strangle her quite often. Had to leave the shop closed for a day of cops, moving her personel effects and fatherly intervention. Ahhh....kids. I once heard that having children was God's way of making death less of a dissapointment.

I still have the "abortion" in my shop, sans hammer marks to date.

CJR, thanks for the specs. I will try to get back onto this gun after I look after some other customer's work and see if any of it makes sense.

Tuner, thanks for reminding me that the barrel is not going to stay on the bed. I am still concerned about the amount of muzzle down tipping of the barrel creating an over angle alignment with a round that is tring to enter the chamber.

Concerning the three point jam. This gun has no bushing. The barrel tunnel in the slide is not machined in any special manner for the flared barrel. The tunnnel is simply a straight .699 diameter hole. As such, the point of contact on the barrel at the muzzle is the two bottom front corners of the slide tunnel. Actually, we have a four point jam, but I am calling the two contact points at the muzzle a single contact point as they pick up at the same time. These two ponts of contact bear quite hard on the bottom of the barrel in the jam-up situation. In a gun with a bushing, or a gun that has some sort of flare machined into the front of the slide tunnel, the point of contact would be spread over a larger area and therefor the friction created at the barrel/slide point of contact would be less than that created by the two small sharp corners at the bottom/front of this gun's tunnel.

One way to eliminate a three point jam is to remove one of the the points of contact, or change the timing so the three points cannot contact at the same instant. What do you think of slightly chamfering the two lower front corners of the slide tunnel to change the timing of contact?

[1911Tuner]

Art axed:

>What do you think of slightly chamfering the two lower front corners of the slide tunnel to change the timing of contact?<
*********************

I think it would almost have to help, if nothing more than dropping the muzzle end closer to horizontal. Try the shims under the chamber to level it up a little. Takes 3 minutes, and might reveal one of the gun's wicked little secrets.

I'm still of the mind that the butt-end is camming up too abruptly. There's a strong possiblity that you just have a badly spec-ed barrel...lower lug...and nothin' that you do is gonna help much, if that's the case. This is a tough cookie, for sure.

Wonderin' at this point if the lower lug is located too far rearward.
The barrel comes forward and crashes the front of the lug with the slidestop pin...and forces the muzzle down hard in a sort of "tripping" move. Worth a check. Also...If the barrel is dropping too far below horizontal...the link swings a little farther forward
and places the lug's forward radius below the optimum point for the slidestop pin to cam it up...and hangs on the link in compression.
The 90 degree front face of the lower lug would tend to do that.

Have you tried a different barrel?

[SteelArt]

Haven't tried a different barrel yet. Don't have another one of the OM style barrels in the shop.

I not quite tracking on your suggestion to put shims under the chamber. The barrel is already tipping below horizontal at the muzzle. It would take a few paper shims to even touch the chamber behind the barrel lug. Do you mean put the shims ahead of the bottom lug to raise the muzzle?

[1911Tuner]

Haven't tried a different barrel yet. Don't have another one of the OM style barrels in the shop.

I not quite tracking on your suggestion to put shims under the chamber. The barrel is already tipping below horizontal at the muzzle. It would take a few paper shims to even touch the chamber behind the barrel lug. Do you mean put the shims ahead of the bottom lug to raise the muzzle?


Nope. Lay the shims between the frame bed and the chamber behind the lug to raise the rear up toward horizontal. I'm fairly sure it's too low. Might have to stick the paper shims with a dab of silicone in the bed. 20-bond paper is .004 inch thick...so try 3 layers and see what happens.

[SteelArt]

The Caspin's owner came to my shop last night and brought two of his other pistols. One is a Charles Daly that is the same size as the Caspian and is bushingless. The other gun is a Colt Defender, that has a bushing.

We swaped barrels betweeen the Caspian and the Charles Daly. The Daly would close perfectly with the barrel from the Caspian. The Caspian would still hang up with the barrel from the Charles Daly. The Daly showed signs of the lower front corners of the slide tunnel either being very slightly chamfered, or perhaps battered to clear the barrel. The Daly also had a tunnel diameter of .706 versus the .699 diameter of the Caspin.

I will get into these guns on Monday and let you know more of what I find.

[1911Tuner]

The Caspin's owner came to my shop last night and brought two of his other pistols. One is a Charles Daly that is the same size as the Caspian and is bushingless. The other gun is a Colt Defender, that has a bushing.

We swaped barrels betweeen the Caspian and the Charles Daly. The Daly would close perfectly with the barrel from the Caspian. The Caspian would still hang up with the barrel from the Charles Daly. The Daly showed signs of the lower front corners of the slide tunnel either being very slightly chamfered, or perhaps battered to clear the barrel. The Daly also had a tunnel diameter of .706 versus the .699 diameter of the Caspin.

I will get into these guns on Monday and let you know more of what I find.


Yep. Gotta get the muzzle end lower. When the slide was clearanced to let the chamber end drop, it got too far below horizontal. If you look closely at the top of the barrel, you may see where the top front of the slide bore has hit it. Seen it a few times on the shorties. Damned barrel arc with the chopped lengths is part of it.

Basic problem was likely with the frame bed and/or the slide installed height.
hard to say right now. Go back to my first suggestion and reduce the barrel diameter a little from just behind the point of contact into the curve of the cone...and
keep the taper gentle. Stop short of the major diameter to preserve the in-battery fit. Chamfer the slide bore at the front corners from 9 and 3 O'Clock to the bushing gap, and break the corners at the bottoms of the chamfers.
You may need to chamfer the whole bore, but try just 9 and 3 to the gap first and go from there.

Luck!

[CJR]

Steel Art,

If I understand your last post, the Daly has a 0.706"D slide bore and the Caspian has a 0.699"D slide bore. I see two possibilities happening here; if the centers of the slide bores of the Daly and Caspian were identically located, the Daly could be simulating a slide bore that is located 0.0035" higher. If the center of the Daly slide bore was actually located higher, the Daly slide bore could be simulating a slide bore that is 0.007" or higher. That's one of the reasons I sent those extra dimensions to you, i.e. top of chamber to link pin hole center in lower lugs. It appears you're getting warm on the proper solution.

Best regards,

CJR

[1911Tuner]

So...Art!

What's the Prognosis on this Persnickety and Precocious Pistol?
We're on Pins and needles...

[SteelArt]

Sorry about being AWOL for the last few days. This last week was a mess and I have missed a lot of time in the shop. My wife fell down the stairs in our house Monday morning. She's okay now, but was pretty bruised up and could barely walk for a couple of days. Then there was the holiday. Babysitting the grandkids Thursday night and all day Friday. And we were out of town all day Saturday and Sunday morning. Hope to get back to work in earnest tomorrow. I WILL keep you informed.

[1911Tuner]

Dayumm! Sorry for the bad Licks of Life, Art. Seems that Murphy had you in his crosshairs.

[SteelArt]

I spent most of yesterday playing with the little monster and comparing it to the Charles Daly that the customer brought up. First examination of the Daly revealed that it was SLOPPY. Everything about it was loose. It also has a very noticeable tapered cone reamed into the front of the slide tunnel where the muzzle of the barrel sets. The cone is reamed about 1/4 inch into the tunnel and is .708 in diameter at the front of the slide. The reamed cone is deeper than the major diameter area at the front of the barrel. The result is an extremely sloppy fit of the barrel to the slide at the muzzle.

I then started swapping parts. The Daly slide worked without jamming on either frame, with either barrel installed. The Caspian slide jammed on either frame, with either barrel.

Measurements:
The frames miked out almost identical. The Daly slide miked .841 from the bottom of the slide to the top of the tunnel. The Caspian slide is .849. Result was a difference of .008 less aggregate stack height in the Daly. The barrel from the Daly only measured .683 top to bottom of the chamber area. The barrel from the Caspian is .688 in that dimension. After all of the miking and swapping, I decided that I had not learned much from the exercise and focused on the front of the Caspian slide tunnel.

The Caspian slide tunnel is straight with no cone reamed into the front of the tunnel. I was not impressed with the amount of reaming that was done on the Daly, but the concept showed merit. The owner of the gun has decided that he would like to have a new barrel installed in the Caspian, so I decided to remove material from the bottom of the original barrel to see if additional clearance would help. I first slightly chamfered the lower front corners of the slide tunnel to remove the sharp edges. Then I put marker on the bottom of the barrel and assembled the gun, worked the slide a few times and checked the areas of contact. I filed the contact areas and repeated the process numerous times.

Each time that I filed off a contact area, a new contact point developed slightly higher on the barrel. In the end, I had removed all of the ridge between the tapered area of the barrel and the major diameter of the muzzle from the 9 o'clock point to the 3 o'clock point. The slide will now close with just a slight hint of drag. If you point the gun muzzle down, without the recoil spring installed and pull the slide back about half way, you can release the slide and it will close by the weight of the slide.

Now........what to do about fitting a new barrel. I could plan to do the same thing to a new barrel, or consider tapering the front of the slide tunnel. I don't know of a source for a reamer to taper the tunnel and it would be a delicate operation with a Dremel or files. I do not want to wind up with a sloppy fit like the Daly.

Any suggestions???

[1911Tuner]

Aha! Whupped'em ag'in Josey...(Tunerfish takes a bow) :D

The taper in the Daly slide is likely a too-deep overkill. They ran into the same thing that you did, and the fix was to get the muzzle lower. Tapering the slide bore will help, but lathe'turning a little off the barrel diameter behind the major diameter is what it'll take.

Unless I miss my guess, the taper angle on the barrel is probably 60 degrees
from the axis. Find a large enough countersink that will cut a taper inside the slide bore about .065 inch deep. May not take that much, so try a little at a time. Reduce the diameter of the barrel starting just behind the major diameter of the muzzle...maybe .050 inch behind it. Since it won't take much, you can do it with a smooth, half-round mill-cut file. Maybe .003 inch or so. This is gonna turn into a cut a little and try...Cut a little more and try.
You have my sympathies...

[CJR]

Steelart,

For what it's worth, the slide on my OM is a Caspian and the barrel is a Wilson made of 17-4PH stainless steel. My OM runs well without the tunnel taper you described as being on the Daly slide.

It seems that you're making some progress on this OM. No one said it would be easy.

Best regards,

CJR

[SteelArt]

CJR

Since I am in the market for a barrel for this thing, what model Wilson barrel do you have in yours? Is it the 33,0 barrel?

[SteelArt]

I'm thinking about ordering a bull barrel for this gun. My thought is that a bull barrel would not have the ridge at the muzzle for the slide tunnel to hang on and the chamber of the barrel would be held in a more horizontal position to facilitate cartridge feeding if the muzzle was supported. Not sure if I am going to open another can of worms.

Any opinions?

[1911Tuner]

Aret,

A heavier barrel with a more gradual taper toward the muzzle might help things as long as it drops to horizontal.

Something to consider:

The Browning short-recoil design is really nothing more than a straight blowback with a variable slide mass. The variable mass comes when the
barrel is locked to the slide under pressure, and loses that mass after the slide travels a short distance and the barrel unlocks. Since reduced slide mass causes many of the problems with the short pistols, adding to the mass with a heavier barrel may counter some of those issues by delaying the slide's timing a little.

You may have to drop the recoil spring a little in order to get full travel though. The Defender's recoil system...which was taken from the old Detonics system...may be more tuneable than it appears to be at first glance. I recently got up tp my neck in a Springfield Micro, which uses pretty much the same system, and the primary spring had the same spacing between coils as the standard 32-coil Wolff spring intended for the 5-inch guns. I was able to cut GM-length springs of various ratings down to 9 turns and make it work in the Micro without coil bind...and enabled me to get full slide travel without short-cycling. Your final number of turns may vary. Check for coil bind before test-firing the gun. Have a look at it and see if the Defender's outer spring has the same spacing between the coils. If it does, it allows a little leeway in fine-tuning the gun.

Yep...Right about now, ol' John Moses is lookin' down on all this and thinkin':

Three inches??? You GOTTA be KIDDIN' me!! ROFL!!!!!

[SteelArt]

Tuner,

Yea.......the barrel to slide mass ratio was the can of worms that I am concerned about. Don't know that I am too exited about opening that can. Maybe I should just use a standard OM barrel, since the owner doesn't care, and save myself some headaches.

I'm not concerned about the time involved in filing a tapered barrel to work in this slide tunnel. Being also a custom knife maker, me and Mr. File have a long history together. I just struggle with the concept of the barrel not having support at the muzzle and flopping around changing the angle of approach for a round feeding into the chamber.

Any particular brand of barrels you like? Lots of good ones out there.

[1911Tuner]

The extra mass may actually work in your favor...Only a possibly expensive experiment will tell.

Don't know about which barrel to use. I've never done a hard fit in a pistol shorter than Commander-length. I try to avoid the sub 4-inchers when I can.

[CJR]

Steelart,

To answer your question to me. I bought my barrel from Brownells. It is the 17-4PH forged stainless steel, 3.5" Wilson Match Barrel/Bushing Set, their #965-033-345. The Aerospace 17-4PH material is my favorite alloy for stainless steel barrels. Brownell's states, "Barrel and bushing are left slightly oversized at lockup areas to allow precise final fitting. Chamber is fully cut". Since you've invested so much time in this OM, I would suggest you determine what barrel muzzle diameter you need and then call Brownells and see if they would selectively pick a barrel from their stock that meets your requirements. Brownells is typically a good company to work with and I would expect them to help you. My Wilson OM barrel is superbly made and extremely accurate.

It looks like you've finally got your OM problems worked out. I'd also recommend you install a ISMI recoil spring/guide rod system. The cross-sectional shape of the ISMI spring wire is a thin rectangular shape rather than the typical round shape. This gives more room for the coils and helps eliminate any potential coil bind. Personally, I think the ISMI springs are the best quality springs out there. If I recall correctly, my past conversations with the owner of ISMI also indicated he is a OM user.

Keep us posted on how this OM project progresses. Good luck!

Best regards,

CJR

[SteelArt]

Hey guys,

Sorry it took me so dang long to get back to you about how this gun came out. Ive been swamped in the shop and have been busy making knives to take to the AKA knife show in Little Rock,AR on Feb. 4th.

I bought a Wilson barrel and fitted it to the gun. I had the same issue with the slide hanging on the Wilson barrel. Had to remove the ridge around the bottom of the barrel to get it to close. The more material I removed, the sloppier the fit became between the barrel and the slide at the muzzle. I stopped when the slide closed with just a hint of drag just before going into battery. The fit between the barrel and the slide on the customer's Charles Daly was extremely sloppy. The fit I obtained on the Caspin OM was considerably better than the Daly, but I am not really happy that the gun had to have slop built into it to work. I not sure it would be possible to make this design into a tack driver. I think this gun would be better off with a barrel like is used in the Colt Defender. Not having a taper on the bottom of the barrel would preclude the hanging at the muzzle.

Thanks again for all of the help. Of all of the 1911 guns that I have owned and all of the guns that have come into my shop, I have never worked on an OM size gun. I'm used to working on guns that have support of the barrel at the muzzle and I just had a hard time understanding how these flop barreled outfits were supposed to work.