Old Government 1911 as my duty weapon

[Jorge]

I saw you website while searching last night for more info about my newly acquired 1911. I acquired a Government Model 1911 with serial #16,598. It shoots very well and out shot my Glock during my qualification. I am now officially using this weapon for duty as my department let us use what we basically want with exceptions. The gun has been changed a little bit to keep up with technology. New sights, trigger, hammer, slide release , and Les Baer grips. Looks good and I shot a 99% with this compared to 94% with my Glock. My question is. What can you guys tell me about my 1911. I know that it is the the first 20,000 made. But how much can this be worth and where did it go for service. Did it actually go to the Philippines to fight moros as it was intended to! Thanks !

[Doran]

Does the serial # have a C in front of it?

[1911slabsides]

If your 1911 does not have a C in front of the serial number is appears that it was made in 1912. I don't know about the Moros I think they 1911 came about after the Moros but it could have been used against Pancho Villa. Its been around that long and 1911's along with others were used by US troops in Mexico when they chased Villa.

With the new sights trigger hammer grips etc it isn't worth as much as it would be untouched but I'd still venture to guess that it would be somewhere in the $400.00 to $600.00 range. What really kills the value on these old guns is when the grip tangs are cut in order to install a high rise grip safety.

The thing about your 1911 is that it really hasn't changed much. You can probably tell that by the upgraded parts you have installed on it. It is pretty amazing how accurate some of those old 1911's can really be, but you probably noticed that from your score.

Needless to say, it's a good gun, and you don't even have to worry about break in.

[Jorge]

It does not have a C in front of it and the lettering on this is different than others I see. But it has a stamp E.E.C. on the left side and a Colt symbol by the safety. And on the right side trigger guard, it has the #12 upside down. The previoue owner who is my wife's cousin kept all the parts that were replaced, including trigger, hammer, bobtail, old sights, slide release. If brought back to original, can this still be worth something. I am not looking to sell it, but want to know just in case I want to insure it. The only thing it does not have anymore are the grips. It is good to know that a 92 year old gun can still be this reliable and can be used for law enforcement duty. It has never jam once, and since I bought it, must have put 1000 rounds already. I am also using Chip Mcormicks 10 rounders and plan to install mag wells. Any added info would be appreaciated.

Jorge

[1911slabsides]

Having the origional parts certainly boosts the value, The weak spot you have now is the sight replacement, the origionals can be reinstalled but the sights are going to detract from the value. Also (if)the grip tangs are cut for a beaver tail that will make the value drop even further. The origional finish has a lot to do with the value of the gun too. An origional 1911 in very good condition can push upwards of $2000.00, one in fair condition can still bring around $700.00 I know that's a lot of difference in value but it's really hard to say where yours is without seeing it. Even if I saw it I'm not as good as others on this site at all the finer details. One amazing thing I've found about the origional grips for a pistol of your type, They are running around $100.00 or more in very good condition.

I really wish I could give you a solid value but it's hard to say. But if you are using it on patrol and it hits where you point it and shoots every time you want it to, it's probably worth a million to you.

Hopefully somebody else will chime in here and offer a little better info than I am or am not able to provide.

[Doran]

E.E.C. means your frame was made by Remington-UMC in the WWI era, yours appears to be 1919. The "Colt symbol by the safety" probably means you have a Colt slide.

If you had all the original parts and could put a UMC back together it would be worth more than most other WWI era pistols in the same condition.

[1911slabsides]

Doran, did those serial numbers overlap between Colt and Remington UMC or did I misread the list?

[Doran]

Remington-UMC was allowed to start serializing at number one.

[1911slabsides]

Doran,
I went back and found the error I made.
Jorge,
sorry about the date info I gave you Doran is correct, some of these guys know everything about these old guns and more. At one time I had a Remington UMC 1911 that had a Colt Slide, I sold it and a couple of months later I got a Colt 1911 with a UMC slide, Damn if I had of waited I would have had a pretty nice example of a UMC, The Remington UMC is not as commonly seen as the Colt. Swapped slides is not uncommon with military 1911,s there's really nothing wrong with the one you have, During WW II there were several manufacturers of the 1911 and while they all left the factory as one gun the parts often got swapped around later. Remington Rand (the typewriter company) made 1911's during WW II but that is not the same company as Remington UMC. Am I confusing you yet? If not please help me by explaining what I just said.

Daran thanks for the adjust.

[dsk]

Remington-UMC began production in late 1918 and started at #1, and continued past 20,000. What that means is there are over 20,000 M1911's with the same serial number (Colt and Rem-UMC). Fortunately Rem-UMC frames are easy to spot, as they are marked EEC on the left side and have a much larger font for the serial number (which is often very lighty stamped). There are other ways an experienced collector can tell also, but those differences are more subtle and are useful for spotting faked Remington-UMC pistols.

[1911slabsides]

If I'm not mistaken there is a firebomb stamp on the frame. I happened across a Remington UMC frame too early in the game and I didn't realize what I had at the time. Unfortunately I came across a colt frame with a Remington UMC slide after I already parted with the frame, The damn sad thing is that both the slide and the frame were in about the same origional condition. I just didn't get the timing right. Those would have been two very nice "Corrected" 1911's.

But the simple fact here is that you are using a very old gun for duty. Or possibly the gun is using a very young guy for patrol I guess it's all in your perspective.

I think the safe way to put it is that your 1911 is probably worth $600.00 Bucks on the low side. insurance is a gamble or a bet and I don't understand how the companies are able to get away with it, non the less I really wouldn't have a problem saying the gun is worth the $600.00 bucks, it's probably worth more but it's hard to say. If the insurance company can find one like yours for less than that amount have them contact me because I'd buy it sight unseen.

[Jorge]

How would someone know if one is a fake Remington UMC. This one has a light engraving on the slide and the Colt symbol byt the safety does not have a circle around it. It does have a #12 upside down on the trigger guard. Did Remington UMC use the Colt slide or did they make their own for Colt. How much would this be valued approximately if this was a true Remington UMC. I have a lot of questions but I appreciate everyone giving me all this info.

[1911slabsides]

It's been my experience that it is more common to see mismatched military 1911s that matching pistols. Remington UMC made their own slides, The roll mark is different but it had all the colts patent dates and even has...... well better than my weak attempt at explaining, http://usgi1911.tripod.com/gallery/Remumc.jpg

My Colt Commercial model made in 1917 has the same colt roll mark on the slide above the safety, Only the very early slides had the circle around the pony. heres mine, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/1911slabsides/Picture_012.jpg.

I think that if you have a complete remington UMC and a complete Colt in the same condition that the UMC would probably be worth more as there are less of them out there and they are harder to come by.

There is another 1911 that was made in canada during the same time span, North American, But those are very rare, and worth a small fortune,

Here a site Simpson Ltd, I'm not real good at bargain hunting but there is a remington UMC and a north american as well as a couple of colts on this page,
http://www.simpsonltd.com/Showroom/1911'sandRelated/1911s&related.htm

[Chief]

The discussion about mismatched frames and slides reminded me of a story someone told me. Back in the late 70's my friend was at a Navy range getting qualified on the .45. The Gunners Mate who ran the range had buckets of frames, slides, barrels, etc. and you had to properly assemble the weapon prior to shooting as part of the course. After the range period he had all the shooters disassemble their weapons and put the parts in the appropriate barrel of CLP.
One of the saddest days of my Navy career was when I went to the armory to draw my weapon for watch and was handed an M-9.

[Jorge]

My Colt/Remington UMC looks exactly like yours. Even has the same wear in the front of the slide. The only difference is the grips and the other parts but they look exactly the same. There's going to be a gun show here in town. I'll bring it there and get some more feedback as well. You guys have been very informative. Just want to let you guys know that I am a Deputy in the Jail division Hopefully to be on the road by next year. I also do Port Security with the Coast Guard as my part time job.

Again, thanks for all your help in this area! :)

[1911slabsides]

Well I guess I may as well tell you that about 10 years ago I was a police dispatcher, I ended up getting on patrol but I came to found that as exciting as it was, I couldn't do it. I couldn't look the other way as much as it was required, Thats neither here nor there, I hope you are good at it when you get on patrol. I personally left the police department and worked in an emergency room as a technician, much more excitement and i didn't have to look the other way, in fact you get extra points for maintaining focus, adreniline junkies take note!
Okay back to the Gun, dont' believe everthing you hear at the show, alot of those guys will act like it's junk in hopes that you'll sell it, and those assholes run in packs so if you hear negatives dont believe it. You've got a good gun there, Granted it will never be origional but you can correct it and find the parts that you need, Don't sell it at the show! It's worth more than those guys will give it credit for. I'm never bossy, even with my own son, but every now and then I have to jump up and say something. Don't sell it. its worth more than your average 1911 shooter. Input at a show is really output. Go easy with the shows they will con you.

[Jorge]

I'll go there with an open mind. The local gun shop owner, who is very respectable with all law enforcement officer locally was the first one to tell me that I do have the first production 1911 (first 20,000). He missed the Remington frame. He offered me a new Kimber Stainless for mine that he had in his showroom.

Anyone have the opposite combination of a Remington slide and Colt frame, let me know, let me know. Thanks :)