LAPD authorizes 1911 for patrol!

[garrettwc]

The LAPD has authorized the carry and use of personally owned Colt, Springfield, and Kimber 1911s for uniformed patrol officers.

Will wonders never cease.

Edit to add: The reported source of this info is John Farnam.

[boehlertaught]

Wow, that's cool.

[garrettwc]

Update!!

This may be more limited in scope than originally reported. A rep from LAPD is stating that this applies only to firearms instructors and previous SWAT or SIS who are rotating out and going back to regular divisions. It may not be a wholesale change rolled out to all officers.

I'll post more when I hear something definite.

[Dave Williams]

Keeping my fingers crossed for LAPD Coppers to be able to carry John Browning's Masterpiece!

Dave Williams

[CDogg]

bad guys beware! 45acp WILL sit you down with 1 or 2 shots on center mass......NICE :appld: The crime rate in LA county is insane and gangsters actually do go after cops. Big bore is definitely a good idea

[Tom in Ohio]

An LAPD firearms instructor posted on another site yesterday stating that this is bum scoop. He said that they're only doing this to allow former SWAT and SIS officers to continue to carry 1911's when assigned to patrol. He also said that some of the firearms instructors will also be allowed to carry the 1911's, but he was very adamant that there were no plans to allow anyone else in patrol to carry 1911's.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=90059&an=0&page=0#90059

[Deadman]

they are probably concerned about the cost of training, or re-qualifying existing patrol officers that would be required.

[Dave Williams]

San Diego authorizes the 1911, when I was out at Front Sight there was a big group of San Diego coppers there getting tuned up on their 1911s.

Hopefully LAPD will allow their people the option also.

Dave Williams

[Doms1]

I have a good friend at LAPD Metro Div which includes SWAT (D Platoon), K9 Platoon, Mounted Unit (E Platoon), A Platoon (handles Metro Armory and protection details for LA Mayor and LAPD Chief) and B and C Platoons. He says as of now only D Platoon can carry Kimber 1911s, but according to their Capt starting in Sept 2010 after they get trained the rest of the Division will be able as an option to carry 1911s. Right now former SWAT and Special Investigation Section Detectives can carry 1911s as well as some Firearms Instructors. This is real scoop.......

[Dave Williams]

Thanks for the update.

Dave Williams

I have a good friend at LAPD Metro Div which includes SWAT (D Platoon), K9 Platoon, Mounted Unit (E Platoon), A Platoon (handles Metro Armory and protection details for LA Mayor and LAPD Chief) and B and C Platoons. He says as of now only D Platoon can carry Kimber 1911s, but according to their Capt starting in Sept 2010 after they get trained the rest of the Division will be able as an option to carry 1911s. Right now former SWAT and Special Investigation Section Detectives can carry 1911s as well as some Firearms Instructors. This is real scoop.......

[Garand1911]

LAPD has been carrying the glock 45acps (optional) for a few years now, ever since the north hollywood shoot out.

[Dave Williams]

"Currently only SWAT and SIS and former SWAT and SIS members who purchase their own weapons.

However starting the first of the year all Department instructors and expert or above level shooters will be able to carry private purchase 1911s.

2 day transistion school and required to qualify every month, vs 4 times a year for the rest of the Department.

The whole issue is the 1911 is the only duty handgun with a positive lock safety system. None of the other duty handguns are carried safetydecocker on. By restricting the weapon to, for lack of a better term, "gun guys", the Department feels it will prevent someone from having brain fade under stress and forgetting to take the safety off."

"ANY Colt, Kimber, or Springfield weapon. For once the people writing the paperwork realized the real world changes faster then the paper can catch up with it."

Dave Williams

[Deadman]

aren't there a large number of Beretta 92s in service in L.A. ?

it's difficult to belive that if they're still out three, on patrol they are not carried decocked.

[Mike Grasso]

LAPD has been carrying the glock 45acps (optional) for a few years now, ever since the north hollywood shoot out.

Nope. I wrote the request before the shootout and it was for upgrading the S&Ws to 45. It was approved the week before the shootout at the Police Commision and went Department wide slightly after. Glocks didn't come along till Chief Bratton from NY came to power.


aren't there a large number of Beretta 92s in service in L.A. ? it's difficult to belive that if they're still out three, on patrol they are not carried decocked.

Do you mean with the decocking lever in the down position? Or do you mean that the hammer is cocked?

We carry the 92F, hammer down in double action mode, decocking lever up. It's been that way since I was one of the transition instructors in the 80s.

As for the 1911, I've had it for more than six months on the Instructor Pilot program and it's doing well, we hope to get it out to the troops in the new year.

Mike

[Deadman]

exactly what I meant carried double action first shot as designed.

[ultra45]

Nope. I wrote the request before the shootout and it was for upgrading the S&Ws to 45. It was approved the week before the shootout at the Police Commision and went Department wide slightly after. Glocks didn't come along till Chief Bratton from NY came to power.




Do you mean with the decocking lever in the down position? Or do you mean that the hammer is cocked?

We carry the 92F, hammer down in double action mode, decocking lever up. It's been that way since I was one of the transition instructors in the 80s.

As for the 1911, I've had it for more than six months on the Instructor Pilot program and it's doing well, we hope to get it out to the troops in the new year.

Mike

Mike, which 1911 are you carrying? Does there seem to be a preference among those waiting to get qualified?

[Mike Grasso]

Mike, which 1911 are you carrying? Does there seem to be a preference among those waiting to get qualified?

Can't go by me :) Have had 1911's for a long time.
I have 11, 1 Colt, 4 Springfields (Pro, TRP, A1 and EMP) and 6 Kimbers (BP 10, TLE, SIS, Super Carry Custom, Super Carry Pro & a 22 Target)
9 of them are set up for duty / off-duty use.
Due to my assignment, some of them are set up for specific duties.

I have not heard any one maker touted more than another although Colt is not a front runner. TRP's and TLE's are the models most talked about.

Mike

[Deadman]

so the insider scoop.

SIS still carrying Kimbers ?

[Mike Grasso]

so the insider scoop.

SIS still carrying Kimbers ?

I apologize to the Court, your Honor, but I have no independent recollection of the incident, if the Court has any Written, Oral or Electronic evidence that may be used to assist me in my recollection I would like to review them and then make a statement.

;)

Mike

[garrettwc]

Mike, I know you've had these apart and given them a thorough once over. Other than checkering and night sights, are there any other differences between the TLE and the standard Custom?

[Deadman]

I apologize to the Court, your Honor, but I have no independent recollection of the incident, if the Court has any Written, Oral or Electronic evidence that may be used to assist me in my recollection I would like to review them and then make a statement.

;)

Mike

duly noted.

;)

[Mike Grasso]

duly noted.

;)

:D Yes.

Mg

[Mike Grasso]

Mike, I know you've had these apart and given them a thorough once over. Other than checkering and night sights, are there any other differences between the TLE and the standard Custom?

No.

You are basically paying $220 for the front strap checkering and night sights....

About what you would pay if you had someone do it...



Mike

[daveohno]

Can't go by me :) Have had 1911's for a long time.
I have 11, 1 Colt, 4 Springfields (Pro, TRP, A1 and EMP) and 6 Kimbers (BP 10, TLE, SIS, Super Carry Custom, Super Carry Pro & a 22 Target)
9 of them are set up for duty / off-duty use.
Due to my assignment, some of them are set up for specific duties.

I have not heard any one maker touted more than another although Colt is not a front runner. TRP's and TLE's are the models most talked about.

Mike

Ya need another Colt or 2!

It is nice to hear that at least one large police department isn't brainwashed completely by that Glock Perfection nonsense.

[Mike Grasso]

Ya need another Colt or 2!

It is nice to hear that at least one large police department isn't brainwashed completely by that Glock Perfection nonsense.

Believe me it's still Glockwashed.

As for Colt's, a friend has my old 9mm commander, I'm working on him to get it back. Other than that I'm waiting to see whats available at the 2011 Shot Show, see what the big three are offering.

Mg

[daveohno]

Well. if someone wants a black tactical (that's what all tactical stuff is now, right?) pistol with all sorts of tactical doo-dads on it, they won't be looking at a Colt. If they just want a traditional pistol, a Colt could fill the bill.

Glocks are ok for the average police officer as the average copper isn't really a shooter and is on the cheap side. They really don't need or want to spend a lot of money on a pistol. They're spending money on private school tuition for their kids.

[garrettwc]

Well. if someone wants a black tactical (that's what all tactical stuff is now, right?) pistol with all sorts of tactical doo-dads on it, they won't be looking at a Colt.
Colt makes a few models that fit that description. They just aren't advertised as well as some of the other options out there.

[cool-breeze87]

Just out of curiousity due to this new ruling, would someone who was military trained on the use of a 1911 pistol and carried one during the military be able to carry a 1911 pistol if they joined the LAPD. I'm working on a screenplay where the main character is former Special Forces working as a detective in the LAPD and he carries a Kimber.

[Mike Grasso]

Just out of curiousity due to this new ruling, would someone who was military trained on the use of a 1911 pistol and carried one during the military be able to carry a 1911 pistol if they joined the LAPD.

No.

Anyone who wants to carry the weapon system must first be in the "Expert" category ( 380 out of a possible 400 point system) He must then sign up for a spot in the transition class and pass the transition school. Outside schools are not approved due to the lack of Departmental control over the subject matter.

Mg

[cool-breeze87]

I'll just have him mention that he went through the transitional school then.

Thanks :)

[Mike Grasso]

I'll just have him mention that he went through the transitional school then.

Thanks :)

Exactly.

Mg

[daveohno]

No.

Anyone who wants to carry the weapon system must first be in the "Expert" category ( 380 out of a possible 400 point system) He must then sign up for a spot in the transition class and pass the transition school. Outside schools are not approved due to the lack of Departmental control over the subject matter.

Mg
What are the highlights of the 400 point system? If LAPD is anything like other big agencies, the explanation could be enormous. I'm just curious how hard it would be for the average, regular shooter PO to qualify.

In Chicago, now they dictate that all new officers buy either a Glack 17 or 19. After probation, they can buy one of the other, half cocked, single action, striker fire systems. Oops, did I say half cocked, single action out loud? I meant to say, safe action or dao striker fired system. They go as far as forbidding the S&W M&P with a thumb safety. CPD has forbidden anyone carrying a 1911 platform for well over 20 years now.

[Mike Grasso]

The bonus course is used to earn shooting medals and bonus pay. You may also perform your bimonthly qualification on the bonus course. The bonus course consists of 40 rounds fired on two silhouette targets.

The targets are ring scored, e.g. a round in the 9 ring is worth 9 points, a round in the 8 ring is worth 8 points, etc. Head shots are scored 10 points. The maximum possible score is 400 points. The minimum score for qualification is 280 points.

Only approved duty weapons that are registered with the armory may be used. Only approved duty gear may be used, competition gear, (e.g. open front holsters are prohibited.)

Any violation of the rules or procedures will result in disqualification. There are no excuses or alibis for weapon malfunctions, b/o ammo, shooting out of sequence or shooting on the wrong target. You may not load more than 6 rounds at any phase. The slide must lock open at the end of every phase unless you hold rounds. The targets start on edge and turn towards you on the timer and then turn away.

The "Ten Ring" is approx 5"x7".

PHASE ONE - 4 body shots in 3 seconds, 2 on the right target and 2 on the left target. The targets will turn. When they turn back, 2 head heads in 1.5 seconds, 1 round on each head. Start in a Close Contact position on the 7 yard line.

PHASE TWO (considered the fastest phase)- 6 rounds in 3.5 seconds, 2 on the right target, 2 on the left target and 2 on the right target. Start in a Close Contact position on the 7 yard line.

PHASE THREE - This is a repeat of Phase one except you start in a Low Ready position on the 10 yard line.

PHASE FOUR - 2 rounds in 2 seconds. First pair on the left target, second pair on the right target, third pair on the left target. Start in a Low Ready position on the 10 yard line. Between each pair, return to a Low Ready and decock.

PHASE FIVE - 10 rounds in 30 seconds alternating right target, left target. Start on the 17 yard line with 4 rounds in the holstered weapon and 6 rounds in the spare magazines. At the signal draw and fire 4 rounds alternating right target, left target. Speed reload and continue.

PHASE SIX (Barricade position) - 2 rounds in 4 seconds, 1 right, 1 left in each barricade position (right hand barricade, left hand barricade, and over the counter). Start each barricade position with the sights aligned on target, finger on the trigger.


You can only shoot this course once a day. Again, there is no alibi for any type of malfunction.

SHOOTING MEDALS

DISTINGUISHED EXPERT 385 point average over six consecutive months. (less than 1%)

EXPERT 380+ points (less than 7%)

SHARPSHOOTER 340-379 points

MARKSMAN 300-339 points


To be an Instructor in any of the Weapon Systems it is expected that you are a Distinguished Expert.

I hope this clarifies your question about standards. It also explains why the LAPD has one of the highest Training reputations in the US.

Mg

[daveohno]

Thanks for the post! That 380 isn't something everyone can achieve. 6 qualifications per year is pretty good. We have once yearly and the people who can't shoot (there are plenty of them) start sweating every January. Our qualification box is about the size of an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. No scores, just you hit the desired percentage in the box and you pass. I have several alternate prescribed and auxiliary firearms and they don't pay for the rounds to qualify with them.

I believe there might be at least 3 reasons they don't qualify us in such a rigorous manner. They'd have to fire some people once in a while that can't shoot, it costs money and we don't have any of that and the shooting records are subpoenaed for shootings and if one were to qualify at the higher levels, I could see a plaintiff's attorney asking the nit wits on the jury why this sharpshooter didn't just shoot my client in the hand? The officer was an expert shooter! He didn't have to kill my felon client! LA has the same level of idiocy in their jury pool northern Illinois has. The fools want to pay everyone.

[Mike Grasso]

We have the same problems. I forgot to add one thing though, if you switch to the 1911, you must qualify every month, period. Again, it's a professional weapon system and the belief is that it takes a much longer learning curve. The monthly qualification and maybe a qual in between, guarantees familiarity.

mg

[daveohno]

Does the department pay for all the ammunition?

We used to qualify with our carbines 4 times per year, 2 marksmanship and 2 tactical. They reduced it to once for each because of our budget problems.
I shoot in a 3 gun league to make sure I get some practice with the carbine.

[Mike Grasso]

Does the department pay for all the ammunition?


Only for Qualification, not for our "Bonus" shoot. There is a pay increase attached to bonus. I shoot Distinguished Expert which gives me an extra $32 a paycheck, or $768 a year...

Mike

[JM likes loud mouth]

The LAPD has authorized the carry and use of personally owned Colt, Springfield, and Kimber 1911s for uniformed patrol officers.

Will wonders never cease.

Edit to add: The reported source of this info is John Farnam.
One of thier models from Kimber is the SIS, Commissioned by thier swat team, i have thier short barrel version. And as those who own Kimbers know this gun is a shooter. Mine out shoots my full size Colt and Loaded Springfield. This is my carry arm. ;)

[cool-breeze87]

One of thier models from Kimber is the SIS, Commissioned by thier swat team, i have thier short barrel version. And as those who own Kimbers know this gun is a shooter. Mine out shoots my full size Colt and Loaded Springfield. This is my carry arm. ;)

You're wrong about the SIS being for the SWAT team. The LAPD SWAT team has a custom built Kimber that resembles the Kimber Custom II TLE more. The SWAT one is called the LAPD SWAT Custom II.

[JM likes loud mouth]

You're wrong about the SIS being for the SWAT team. The LAPD SWAT team has a custom built Kimber that resembles the Kimber Custom II TLE more. The SWAT one is called the LAPD SWAT Custom II.
My bad, your right, its the special investigation service, been a while since i owned it, got caught up in the swat talk. My apologies. :(

[garrettwc]

My first thought was 5" X 7" is a generous 10-ring. Then I read the course of fire. :eek:

Do you guys serve ice cream with the humble pie at the end of quals? :D

[Mike Grasso]

My bad, your right, its the special investigation service, been a while since i owned it, got caught up in the swat talk. My apologies. :(

Common mistake. SIS (Special Investigations Section) is a plain clothes detail of Detectives. SWAT is a uniform detail of Police Officers.

My first thought was 5" X 7" is a generous 10-ring. Then I read the course of fire. :eek: Do you guys serve ice cream with the humble pie at the end of quals? :D

You'd be surprised Brother, the excuses, the excuses....

Mike

[daveohno]

I shoot SASS once in a while and I know, that you know, that I know, how easy it is to miss those rather large steel targets. This is my Sam Adams Jr. Esquire moment.... ;)

The nice thing about the LAPD qual is that once you know the course of fire, you can practice it and hopefully shoot it to the best of your ability and it won't be that intimidating. But, no matter how you cut it, 380 on that course of fire is awfully hard.

On a good day, I can shoot a 465 out of 480 at our league. The targets are out to 75' at the farthest point so it's got more distance shooting in it, but we don't engage multiple targets and I believe the times are similar. I don't think I could get the 380 on a good day. And I'm already shooting slightly modified Colts. But you better believe I'd be trying.

[Mike Grasso]

The nice thing about the LAPD qual is that once you know the course of fire, you can practice it and hopefully shoot it to the best of your ability and it won't be that intimidating. But, no matter how you cut it, 380 on that course of fire is awfully hard. .

Dave,
I feel your pain brother.
The thing about it is that it's a cold shot. You need to be on from the beginning or go home. As one of the more senior guys I'm expected to stay in the 385s for the DE Medal. It's hard. My sight is finally starting to move out further than my arms!!! Hilton Yam helped me out with a 10-8 sight and with "shooting glasses" I brought my Bonus scores right back. But then again in my current position I live fire at least twice a week with each weapon system. But I can see the day coming when I can't keep up with the kids! Thank god it's two years to retirement!

Mike

[JM likes loud mouth]

[QUOTE=Mike Grasso]Common mistake. SIS (Special Investigations Section) is a plain clothes detail of Detectives. SWAT is a uniform detail of Police Offic ers
thanks mike, Jack ;)

[daveohno]

Dave,
I feel your pain brother.
The thing about it is that it's a cold shot. You need to be on from the beginning or go home. My sight is finally starting to move out further than my arms!!! Hilton Yam helped me out with a 10-8 sight and with "shooting glasses"

Mike
What do you mean "cold shot"?

Do the 10-8 sights help that much?

What did you do for glasses?

I have shooting "readers" 1.0X. The insert is down low and difficult to use. I have started using my non-dominant eye for shooting since the vision is better up close. I went to an eye Dr. that I was told could make shooters glasses and they put me with some new clueless eye Dr. so, I'm going to have to go and see what the real eye Dr. can do for me.

[Mike Grasso]

What do you mean "cold shot"?

Do the 10-8 sights help that much?

What did you do for glasses?

I have shooting "readers" 1.0X. The insert is down low and difficult to use. I have started using my non-dominant eye for shooting since the vision is better up close. I went to an eye Dr. that I was told could make shooters glasses and they put me with some new clueless eye Dr. so, I'm going to have to go and see what the real eye Dr. can do for me.

Cold Shot is when you have no practice, it's how you would perform. It's a left over from sniper training.

10-8 with the .156 opening is the quickest sight I've ever used.

Doctor made me a pair of glasses that close focus on the focal length of my front sight.

Mg

[promod1385]

What do you mean "cold shot"?

Do the 10-8 sights help that much?

What did you do for glasses?

I have shooting "readers" 1.0X. The insert is down low and difficult to use. I have started using my non-dominant eye for shooting since the vision is better up close. I went to an eye Dr. that I was told could make shooters glasses and they put me with some new clueless eye Dr. so, I'm going to have to go and see what the real eye Dr. can do for me.


If you are looking for shooting glasses i would call:
http://www.truespotscopes.com/61631.html
They primarily make products for the target archery community but i know a couple people who have had them fill a need for shooting glasses built to your spec and style.

[ahern25]

Nice to hear the LAPD training. Just dont give to much away. Hope they allow patrol to carry 1911's. Lots of other departments carry 1911's. LAPD is the best and should have the best to do their jobs with.

[daveohno]

If you are looking for shooting glasses i would call:
http://www.truespotscopes.com/61631.html
They primarily make products for the target archery community but i know a couple people who have had them fill a need for shooting glasses built to your spec and style.

Thanks for the link, I sent them an email to see what they might be able to do for me.

[Mike Grasso]

Nice to hear the LAPD training. Just dont give to much away.

Never a problem of that happening, in fact, I cut and pasted the course from a publication found on the internet! Didn't have to copy it from the manual!!

Mike

[Dave Williams]

Thought I'd post a pic of one of LAPD's Finest with a 1911. Stainless Steel Colt? This is an old pic I found somewhere online. I don't think recoil control is an issue with this shooter. ;)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/825/weavery.jpg

Dave Williams

[Mike Grasso]

Thought I'd post a pic of one of LAPD's Finest with a 1911. Stainless Steel Colt? This is an old pic I found somewhere online. I don't think recoil control is an issue with this shooter. ;)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/825/weavery.jpg

Dave Williams

One of our best SWAT officers shooting Bonus, back when all the weapons were rebuilt from confiscated parts!

Mg

[stuartd99]

Never a problem of that happening, in fact, I cut and pasted the course from a publication found on the internet! Didn't have to copy it from the manual!!

Mike

Hi Mike

Just trying to find at least a broad outline of what the course involves...I'm writing a piece that needs to be (excuse the pun) accurate...!

Hope you can help

Cheers

Stu

[daveohno]

I just shot our carbine qual with my Colt SP1 with an EOTech XPS2.0. I had trouble with two damaged rounds that wouldn't feed. Other than that, I was 100%. They sped up the course of fire somewhat and the range officer was saying that some of the officers are having trouble passing because of the speed needed. I've been shooting 3 gun this season again, so my comfort level with a carbine is higher than before.

I'm glad LAPD doesn't run our range, I'd be in trouble and I can shoot better than most around here. LAPD Range Master: "Here's the course of fire, engage 6 targets, fire a Mozambique drill on each in 9 seconds!"