Hi Im new and hoping you can help

[the-cowboy]

Ok I know this has been touched on before but it has been a while and Im hoping some of you have more or new experiences that you can share.
Flamers need not apply : I dont want to debate whether shooting airsoft relates well to real firearms I know there are differences. I am more interested in people who have been there and done that and can possibly teach me something or shorten my learning curve.
I have been on alot of gun forums that love to hate on airsoft shooters , I have been on airsoft forums that love to hate on real firearm owners. Im hoping that this is a community where the 2 can co-exist....we will see
Ok I'm new.... and this below is my theory (you are not required to buy in)
Im am looking at a 2 pronged approach. I want to get in to competitive shooting. Additional background I have a 12 yr old son I want to share this sport with.
My plan is to purchase (this is where you guys come in) a pistol that is a worthy ispc uspsa,ipda or some sort of practical shooting etc platform that I can start with. I would like to know the brand and the caliber you like and quantify your answers please.
The second prong is I will be purchasing an exact duplicate in a airsoft version. Trigger time on an airsoft is better than no trigger time at all (my theory) plus that's where my son comes in we can have friendly competition here at the house. And he and I may compete in airsoft shooting events. So if you have airsoft experience also please I would love to hear from you.
My requirments in the airsoft realm are
I want it to be gas blow back, Full metal ,Highly upgradeable ( I love the race gun look) and a match to the real pistol I will have to start off.
My requirements in the real pistol world are: I want a semi auto single action 9mm that is better than normal accuracy right out of the box and a proven dependable performer.
At this point after much research I have narrowed my choice down to the CZ 75 B (in a real firearm) and a KWA kz75 I would love to hear your opions on these choices and feel free to offer up your suggestions or better options in either class with my criteria above keep in mind "I do want them to match and hold their own in either stock division competition".
Thank you in advance
Jim

[John]

While the CZ-75B is an excellent pistol, how many do you really see in IPSC? It can be fine for IDPA, but I am not a game person, so I am not well versed with what guns can be used in what competition style. So without that specific knowledge, I would say that the most appropriate gun for your requirements is an STI double-stack pistol. And you can use the Tokyo Marui equivalent in the airsoft version.

[Spyros]

First of all, welcome to the forum. Second, don't worry about airsoft bashing and flaming in here.

If you do a search on the forums, you will find a test of a CZ airsoft, by John, I believe of a KSC offering - which is the same as the KWA, but not all-metal.
EDIT: here it is: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=59460

Actually John, by far and away the most popular new gun in my IPSC club, over the past year, was the CZ SP-01 Shadow - which is basically a 75B with nicer, taller sights and a longer magazine. Italian CZ clones are not uncommon either.

Cowboy, since you mention both USPSA and IPSC, I assume you aren't interested in Open-style modifications, with long mags, comps, dot sights, etc. You also say you want a single action 9mm, while the CZ is a SA/DA pistol, but of course you can use it as a SA-only, if you wish.

My only problem with your choices is that, in airsoft format, I am not aware of any 'upgrading' options that you may find useful - I don't know what you mean by 'Highly upgradeable', though. The KWA is already all-metal, so what would you like to change on it?

As John says, the STI-like offerings of TM are probably the most upgradeable airsoft pistols in the market today. The real thing is available in 9mm. So it all depends on whether or not you like the STI platform, better than the CZ!

[John]

Actually John, by far and away the most popular new gun in my IPSC club, over the past year, was the CZ SP-01 Shadow - which is basically a 75B with nicer, taller sights and a longer magazine. Italian CZ clones are not uncommon either.

I guess you are right. Sorry for that.

Still, go find any replacement parts for that airsoft model and you will feel lucky of you find a different hammer.

[Spyros]

Still, go find any replacement parts for that airsoft model and you will feel lucky of you find a different hammer.I know, I read your test! :D

Perhaps the KWA has a different hammer, I haven't seen it. I don't know if the OP is perhaps worried about things breaking and needing replacing.

As a general point, about airsoft practice, I've found that I do more practice dry-firing mine, than anything else. The most visible sign of wear on my TM Hi-Capa is the black anodizing wearing off, right where my index finger rests, when out of the triggerguard. I can live with that.

But it gets worse. since the parts these things are made of, are not up to the same standard as that of real gun parts (to put it mildly), they do wear off. My grip safety no longer works. Also, I'm sure I will eventually need a new sear, and probably a new hammer, too - the trigger pull on mine has changed considerably, acquiring a VERY noticeable roll-trigger quality. Of course to achieve this level of wear, I kept this airsoft pistol next to the couch in the living room (we have no children at home) and toyed with it while watching TV, every day for about one year. This, in addition to actually firing the darn thing 2-3 times a week!

(this, by the way, is why I rarely 'air out' the beautiful TM 1911 Delta, which I bought second hand, from a VERY careful previous owner [not naming Johns - I mean names :D]. I figured he would kill me if he ever saw it again and it had scratches or anything else on it!)

Anyway, for the kind of use the OP is describing, frankly, buying another airsoft once a year or so, may be the easiest and simplest solution - I don't know your son, but if he's anything like most kids I know, he'll probably want to try another 'toy' after a while! Otherwise, TM's 1911-2011 styled pistols are impossible to beat, in terms of what you can change/replace on them.

[the-cowboy]

Thank you all for the comments Ill try to answer some of your questions here plus I have a couple. At the start I'm not looking at open class or limited in airsoft but I would like to work towards that direction as my skill devolops. I have looked at the (tokoyo mauri) tm Guns. The only problem I was anticipating with those are it seems most of them are plastic mostly so I had cut them from the list of candidates. As far as highly upgradeable I define that as trigger work and the other mods that would take the stock cz to a open class competitor down the road. My son has chosen the kwa np45 match as his starter piece. I'm still looking around at what competitions are available in my area and they seem somewhat limited that's why I am trying to keep all my options open. I'm sure I will probally eventually define my interest but I wanna get a taste of all before I do. It would be really nice if I could buy one gun and mod as I go and let it grow with me but that's probably not really gonna happen. So if I can get started on a good platform and go from there I can probably be alright with that to. I wanna thank you all for the warm welcome and the great comments and I look forward to more disscussion.

[John]

TM Hi-Capa is one of the most customizable airsoft pistols. There are many parts for it, I would dare say, many more than for any other pistol.

[Spyros]

If you see yourself evolving to compete in open-class shooting, I would strongly recommend that you follow John's advice and go for the TM Hi-Capa route, especially if you start with one pistol and keep upgrading it to get where you want to go.

Even if you eventually change pistols, I'd suggest you stick to one pistol design. There are other makers of STI-like airsofts - including this ALL-METAL model, that is actually licenced by STI:

http://www.smartstep.se/shopimages/349870.jpg

You can find a link for this one on STI's website.

Then there's a company called WE (weitech??) making several 1911 and 2011 models, based on TM's mechanism. Most accessories and replacement parts intended for TM guns will fit these, and this company is represented at several US shops (unlike STI's official licenced company). Their products generally seem to get good reviews, and are usually all metal. John tested one, and you can read about it here:
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=6249

The gun in John's test has a metal frame, slide and barrel.

But what I have for practice, is this:

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/rekladan/TM02.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo32/rekladan/TM01.jpg

Sorry for the bad pictures, but in my defense, they were taken in near-complete darkness...

This is a TM HiCapa, with an aftermarket slide, and a replacement grip - the TM grip looks like the one in the pistol John tested. Since this picture was taken (about a year ago), I've added a fiber-optic front sight, a replacement blade for the rear sight with a wider notch, and a (very prominent) aluminum magwell. My next step would have been to add a metal outer barrel, but my... airsoft interests went elsewhere at some point.

There's practically nothing you can't change in these pistols. If you wish to start with something a little more affordable, the WE models can use just about anything intended for the TMs. And in the future, when you want to add optical mounts, etc, there are even airsoft-grade, C-More-like sights (you could mount a real C-More on an airsoft, of course, but then you'll have a sight more expensive than the gun it's mounted on!

Of course, when it comes to actual firearms, the STI pistols are somewhat more expensive than CZs...

[the-cowboy]

Thank you for the recomendations....but it looks like economically thats a strecth for me. after doing a cursory price check

Sti/Svi real $1000+
Svi/Sti full metal gbb airsoft $300

CZ 75 real $500
Kwa Kz75 full metal gbb $149

I guess my question should be.... Can you come up with a combo air/real that will out shoot the cz combo for the same money $650-700 on both ends of the spectrum. Remember the real should b a 9mm gun that can hold its own in production class right outta the box and the airsoft must be a full metal gbb that can do the same........Man thats kinda tuff isnt it?

[Spyros]

An all-metal Wei-Tech Hi-Capa (the one John tested) costs about $95 in the US.

http://www.airsplat.com/mmAS2010/Images/GP-WE-HiCapa-51.jpg

Production class? in USPSA I believe all SA pistols are not allowed in Production division, so the STI is out.

[Buckeye Marksman]

Thank you for the recomendations....but it looks like economically thats a strecth for me. after doing a cursory price check

Sti/Svi real $1000+
Svi/Sti full metal gbb airsoft $300

CZ 75 real $500
Kwa Kz75 full metal gbb $149

I guess my question should be.... Can you come up with a combo air/real that will out shoot the cz combo for the same money $650-700 on both ends of the spectrum. Remember the real should b a 9mm gun that can hold its own in production class right outta the box and the airsoft must be a full metal gbb that can do the same........Man thats kinda tuff isnt it?

Here's something else to consider:

Tanfoglio (Armscor MAP1) $350
EAA 22LR Conversion Kit $240
KWA KZ75 Full Metal GBB $149

I qualified distinguished expert using a 22LR conversion kit on my Tanfoglio.

I too am interested in the KZ75 for home practice...

[John]

Keep changing your requirements and we'll stay here discussing this for days.

Read your original post and read your latest one. What are you interested in? Better than stock accuracy or just a production pistol accuracy? A highly-upgradeable airsoft, or one you will be lucky if you can find a different hammer for? Cheapest possible solution or what you posted in your first post?

Sorry but my time is precious, I ain't going to spend it answering questions from someone who does not know what he wants.

Define your requirements and come back to us.

[Spyros]

John, I think he is referring to USPSA Production division which, unlike the IPSC Production that we are more familiar with here, has little to do with production pistols.

An extreme example: a Glock 17 with a replacement Caspian slide, Bar-Sto barrel, adjustable sights, a tungsten guide rod and a 3.5lb trigger bar is actually legal in USPSA Production, but would fail IPSC Production requirements, on several counts. On that basis, a modified/accurized CZ or Tanfoglio is, I think, closer to what he has in mind.

[the-cowboy]

John I apogize if I changed my standards some. :nono: I didnt realize I wasnt allowed to alter my specs as you guys better educate me on the subject (bad attempt at humor...sry) :) But for real... You guys have really opened my eyes to options I didnt even realize were there since my first post so I do apoligize if I am somewhat shifty on my poisition. BUT.....I do want to thank you for the time you have spent so far because I do appreciate it. I would never want to monopolize anyones time but if.... and when you do have the oppurtunity to comment I will look forward to it because I value your opinon.

Now I know I am totally ignorant to the requirements (and I know its my responsibilty to find out) of the ipda stock ,uspsa stock ,or Ispc stock requirments. My plan is to read up on them tonight and try to determine if it is even possible to compete (competitively) across all or some of the formats reasonably with one gun basically stock right outta of the box.
Maybe after that I can define at least the organizations Im trying to get ready for. I would love to be able to do all of them because it really doesnt seem like there is an over abundance of events around here. Is any one esle cross competeting like Im talking about or am I crazy for trying to stock more than one shelf.