M1911 just purchased

[mtb1bkr]

I just purchased a couple of 1911s and I have a few questions about them. I am a new to this pistol. The pistol I'm trying to find out about in this forum is Marked Model of 1911. U.S. Army on the slide and the S/N on the reciever is 209693. After some researce, I have found the pistol was made in 1917, but the lists I have found have USMC next to the range of serial numbers. Is this common, US Army on the slide, but it's a Marine Corps pistol, or is it likely the pistol has slide from a different pistol? Any help and info would be greatly appreciated.

[Scott Gahimer]

All the Marine Corps pistols have Army slide markings. They are identified by their serial number ranges.
Navy pistols through the 1915 production run were the only ones to have different markings. They were marked MODEL OF 1911 U.S. NAVY on the slides.

[mtb1bkr]

Thanks Scott. I was hoping that was the case. Is there anywhere I can go to find more info on this pistol, like when it was shipped and where to? I have seen some posts in this forum with that type of info, but have been unable to find anything online.

[John]

I always learn something new, from every post Scott contributes.

Tnx Scott.

Rgds

[Scott Gahimer]

Your pistol was shipped June 4, 1917 in a shipment of 200 pistols. Shipped to the U.S. Marine Corps, Depot Quartermaster, Philadelphia, PA.
That info is included in Clawson's first book entitled "Colt .45 Service Pistols
Model of 1911 and 1911A1" printed 1991 and reprinted 1993.
The info was taken by Mr. Clawson directly from the Colt shipping records while doing research for his books.
The book is out of print, and has been for several years. Copies sell for $450-1000 when you can find one. A Colt factory letter would tell you the same thing, but they charge about $100 just for the letter.
The good news is you can always post on the forum and someone will help you for free. You may also private message members with sensitive info you don't want to post.
BTW, Clawson's Collector's Guide (a smaller version of the book) 3rd edition is out of print but still available. It does not contain all the detailed shipping info that the big book has, but it has all the info you'll need, and has the most current, updated info available. It sells for about $40. I suggest you find and buy one while they're available.
BTW, your pistol is considered a prize among collectors if it is all original. There weren't that many Marine Corps pistols as compared to Navy and Army shipments. Nice find. Would love to see it.
Best regards.

[mtb1bkr]

Wow Scott, thanks for all of the info. After your original post, I was hoping for more good news. A little history about the pistol: I'm an active duty Marine. The former owner of this pistol, a retired Marine LtCol, died ~10 years ago. A few weeks back, his widow called my unit trying to seek a place to donate all of his possessions, mainly books, photos and uniforms. I went out to her place and accepted the donation, and have since forwarded it to the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico, VA. Last week, she called again saying she had come across a few pistols she wanted to get rid of as well. My CO went out and picked three pistols up, one Commercial 1911, the USMC 1911, and a 1903 Colt Officers revolver (which has been a nightmare to research.) My CO told the widow that he would attempt to sell the pistols and return the money to her. Upon hearing of the pistols, I told my CO I would be interested in buying them. We had them appraised and I purchased them, without knowing what I was actually purchasing them, and now here I am with at least one piece of history. After talking to my armorer about finding that the pistol was a Marine Corps pistol, he said it's very likely the pistol was issued to the LtCol, and he carried it until they were sadly replaced by the M9. The pistol was disassembled by my armorer, and he said it appears to be original, but I plan to have it checked out. It is in pretty good shape, the trigger and grip saftey are a bit loose, but all else is in tact. It's a bit worn on the outside, and I haven't had a chance to clean it up yet, I just got it yesterday. Here are three pics I just took of it.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid136/p71fe92a4283be9686f9a62ac92d1d3a5/f74ba47d.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid136/p59ff1aa7af618e3fd186c85a0b49b095/f74ba496.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid136/pb8efd33b3cc6443fb9fbc273ee4224fe/f74ba4a9.jpg

Hope these work

[Scott Gahimer]

I can't really tell too much about the specifics of the finish and markings from the photos. But, if what I am seeing is original blue finish (photos are a little dark to know for sure) I wouldn't change a thing.
I would be very careful not to alter anything if you clean it up. Don't use any steel wool (0000 or otherwise). The piece looks well-used but not abused.
I use only Clenzoil and bronze wool (if any wool is needed). It is a CLP.
Congrats on what may be a great find.
You might tell us about the bbl. markings and whether or not the final inspection is stamped before or after finish was applied. If after finish (correct), you should see some signs of bare and burnished metal there. The finish should be a brushed blue finish. Often on these pistols, the slide will show more wear and may appear slightly browned compared to the frame.

[mtb1bkr]

You might tell us about the bbl. markings and whether or not the final inspection is stamped before or after finish was applied. If after finish (correct), you should see some signs of bare and burnished metal there. The finish should be a brushed blue finish. Often on these pistols, the slide will show more wear and may appear slightly browned compared to the frame.

Being a New Guy to this circle, I have to say I don't know what bbl markings are. Also, where can I find the final inspection stamp? There's a stamp on the recieved just above the magazine release the has a circle with GHS, I believe inside. There is also what appears to be an A or V an the back bottom of the grip, just above the lanyard loop. I can't really tell if there is in bare meal around either of those stamps, but it still needs a good cleaning. I'm going to use CLP and a soft bristled brush to clean it. will have to try to take some better pics and post them on here if I can figure out how to get the Camera to work on closeups. Any other markings I should be looking for that might help with anything?

[Scott Gahimer]

The barrel markings I refer to are on top of the chamber and visible through the ejection port with the slide forward. Should be an H and a P there oriented with one vertical to the other (stacked) while holding the pistol in your hand with the muzzle up in the air. If those marks aren't there, look all over the bbl. and report what markings are there, and where.
The GHS is the final acceptance stamp. It should be stamped after finish.
As you clean the pistol, you can look at a couple things. Look for some bare metal on the inside of the grip screw bushings where they were staked into place after finish. Also check where the plunger tube (above the left grip) is attached to the frame on the inside. You should also see a little bare metal there. That's probably enough to begin with. Small parts looked right from what I could see in the other photos.
Even if you don't have a macro setting on the camera, try taking it outside and get as close as you can while still getting the whole pistol in the frame. With outside light, we should be able to see a lot more.

[mtb1bkr]

Ok, The barrel marking is there right in the middle of the ejection port. I'll check for the other stuff as I disassemble it.

[Scott Gahimer]

Is the bbl. marking a separate H and P? Or an intertwined HP with the leg of the H and P being one common leg?

[mtb1bkr]

Is the bbl. marking a separate H and P? Or an intertwined HP with the leg of the H and P being one common leg?

It's one leg. I just finished cleaning it and found a few other marks as well. Some of the nomenclatures of parts may be incorrect, I need to find a good high resolution photo of the disassembled pistol for better reference. Here's the marks I found.

Below the barrel link, on the link mount there is a G on one side and a 6 or 9 on the other side.
On the barrel, infront of the barrel link assembly there is a small mark that appears to be 8c or 8e.
Looking down on top of the receiver with the slide removed there is an HMG stamped around the ejector pin.
Above the firing pin stop on the rear of the receiver there is an H stamped.

One thing I noticed while taking the hand grips off was, on each grip one of the bushings came out of the receiver instead of the screw coming out. It appeared that those two bushings were tapped into the receiver, maybe as replacements.

[Scott Gahimer]

The intertwined HP barrel is from a little later pistol. The markings you describe are correct for the pistol. Hosmer's H mark is on both the receiver and the slide. These are in-house Colt markings.
I wouldn't worry about the bushing coming out of the frame. It will go right back in with the grip.

[1911slabsides]

This has been one decent thread. Nice find, amazing how these old 1911's turn up, sometimes when you are not even looking for them.

Scott, I picked up a bunch of information from you too (again) it is much appreciated. May I ask what year the intertwined HP barrel is from. I've got a Colt Commercial Model made in 1917 also, I don't think it's the correct barrel but it's closer than the one that I replaced it with.


Guys thanks for an interesting read.

[Scott Gahimer]

The intertwined HP is seen on M1911 barrels from 1918 and 1919 (about s/n 400xxx-629,500) and on the M1911A1 type bbl. of the 1924 Transition pistols.
There is a step on the 1924 1911A1 type barrels just in front of the chamber that is not there on the 1911 bbls. The 1911 bbls. have a smooth transition there. Markings and contours of the bbls. are different too.
You'll almost never run onto a proper 1924 bbl. and nice 1911 bbls. are becoming very scarce too.

[1911slabsides]

Thank you for the info, I was trying to hunt this information down just today when i spotted your mention of it on this thread, Unfortunately my Colt is a 1917 model so I missed it by a year. it does not have the step in front of the chamber. On the bright side I'm really surprized I found this barrel in this condition, Not that I've seen dozens of barrels from this era but this one is the best I've seen this far.

I really appreciate the information you gave and I appreciate mtb1bkr for asking the right questions and following up in such an orderly manner.

Thank you both.

[Scott Gahimer]

Your commercial 1917 pistol's bbl. would not have the same bbl. markings as a military. Nor is the finish the same. The chambers are polished on the commercials.
If I'm not mistaken, a proper commercial bbl. for your gun would have a P proof and perhaps another inspection mark on the bottom in front of the lugs, and no markings at all on the top of the chamber. But I don't really know much about the specific markings on the commercial bbls.
A question in the area of the site dealing with commercials would probably reap a much better answer than I can offer here. I've never really studied the commercial pistols.

[1911slabsides]

Thanks scott,

I just assumed that they used the same barrels, however I've been wrong before. I got to admit that asking about it on this thread was probably a mistake considering it is a commercial gun afterall, I've just always thought they were pretty much the same except for the roll marks, Who knows maybe I am right by default.