Just recieved my 1911 back from Colt and it wasn't repaired

[west9883]

Hey guys, last month I sent my 1911 back to Colt to repair the infamous spring tunnel problem. Well I got it back today from the FEDEX guy and I was excited to open the new blue custom shop box, but was quickly disappointed when I saw that the slide wasn't fixed. Afterward I sent an email to Joyce Rubino concerning this matter, and I am currently waiting for a response back.

I know that a lot of you other 1911 owners have been through the same drawn out process, do those of you with experience in this matter have any suggestions?

I'll post a picture shortly to show everyone what I'm talking about.

:dead_hors

[feathers73]

They may consider it within spec?

[G. Freeman]

West, I'm sorry about your woes, but in looking at the previous pics you posted, they really didn't look bad at all. This spring tunnel issue is just very consistent with Colts that I don't even bother with stuff like this anymore.

[west9883]

I appreciate the empathy Freeman, but I refuse to resign to the stigma of lowered expectations that some people have of Colt these days. Here's a close picture of what I'm talking about, take a look at the slide around the spring plug.


http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu198/west9883/166.jpg

[Bluffton45]

This subject has seen extensive discussion here. I would like to hear a review of the problems encountered in setup, machining, & QC from an EXPRIENCED production manager to help us understand just what reasonable expectations should be.

West,
Did you recieve any explanation/communication from Colt?
Ron

[Hawkmoon]

Definitely off-center, but nowhere near as bad as some others. But ... if it's visibly off-center, as far as I'm concerned it's defective and should be replaced.

[Rio Vista Slim]

west9883,

While I certainly see the non-symmetry which concerns you, and think that Colt should have responded more favorably when you sent the pistol in, perhaps feathers73 hit the nail on the head. I have no idea what Colt's specifications are in this area, but I most definitely have seen worse.

In fact, I own this current production stainless Series 70.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_3020.jpg

Let's see what Joyce has to say.

[Jackman]

Hey guys, I'm new here but this thread couldn't have come at a better time for me. I'm shopping for my first 1911 and QC is a HUGE issue for me. Things like sloppy cratered stampings, lines that aren't parallel but should be, and asymmetries that shouldn't be there drive me nuts. IMHO, the common Colt frame assymetry discussed in this thread is totally unacceptable. I was leaning heavily towards a Colt for my first 1911, but not any more. Thanks to everyone for this thread and this forum.

[ashmesajim]

I bought a new Combat Elite and it is centered. Great trigger out of the box and accurate too. But I don't know if I would buy one I couldn't examine first.

[feathers73]

I don't think it is that bad. I've seen older colts much worse. I think Colt considered this within Spec. Does anyone know what the specification on the thickness tolerance on this part? Their drawing should have that measurement.

[lksstbls]

I don't think it is that bad. I've seen older colts much worse. I think Colt considered this within Spec. Does anyone know what the specification on the thickness tolerance on this part? Their drawing should have that measurement.


If I'm reading the detail drawings in Kuhnhausen's V II correctly, there's a max possible variance in thickness of that wall of .007". The drawings in the Kuhnhausen volume are not completely dimensioned or my drawing reading skills may have deteriorated, so I may be missing something. Three of my six Colt 1911s have the condition in question--two of the afflicted pistols are original Series 70s, and one is a Gunsite CCO. Never paid any attention to the condition. There's no danger of the thin-side edge breaking off so its a purely cosmetic issue in my view, and then one that you have to look for.

[dakota1911]

I guess I look for how well the pistol functions, or how reliable it is and how accurate it is. I am happy if my handgun launches lead reliably and accurately.

[Eddy Munster]

I was leaning heavily towards a Colt for my first 1911, but not any more. Thanks to everyone for this thread and this forum.
I am sorry to hear that. This is not the first time colt has had QC problems and I doubt it will be the last. That said, there is nothing like owning a colt. If these QC problems scare you, you could always look at used colts. I have been told, and found out for myself its best to treat colts on a case by case basis. Pay attention to fit and finish, and you could walk away very happy from an older colt. I do hope you change your mind.

[MOZART]

This is depressing, I am awaiting a repaired Colt as well. Now I'm scared.
Colt needs to tighten up. They are killing their name.

[tra]

I have yet to read where anyone has been able to show that this hole is in fact bored "OFF".

The important issue is, IS IT TRUE WITH THE BARREL BORE.

Unless something has changed, Colt slides are "FORGED" and that results in dimensional variances in the overall exterior of the part.

Appearing to be drilled "OFF" has absolutely nothing to do with whether it actually is.

I think Colt should machine all surfaces of their 1911's and raise the price to around 1500.00 to keep all of you happy.

Other 1911 manufacturers have less cosmetic issues with their products because they employ cheaper methods of manufacture, such as MIM and modern CASTING processes.

Let's hope Colt does not resort to these, CHEAPER, and PRETTIER manufacturing processes just to silence this nonsense.

I think those in charge here , would do us all and Colt a favor by addressing this spring tunnel fiasco and explain to everyone the truth behind this latest ,IT AIN'T MADE RIGHT......They all are off a little, it's the way it is, and always has been.

[OD*]

TRA, you hit the nail on the head amigo!

[WhoaCowboy]

Dan: I'll second your motion.

[WhoaCowboy]

west9883,

Did you receive a copy of the Product Service Repair Order? What did the hand written notes say as to problem, evaluation and any repair as well as test firing results.

[Icepick15]

Nevermind. I'll try again when I'm not so tired. I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone.

[dakota1911]

God bless junior members, tra hit the nail on the head, I think my Special Combat Gov. is fantastic, but for $1400. I think Gold Cups are one of the best 1911 deals out there in the $830-900 area. Should Colt go higher and compete with the $2-4K 1911 makers and make everything perfect?

[Shoota]

It's hard to notice anything looking down that barrel! So sorry that you are going through this, and I hope that you get it resolved. As others have said, discovery of what the specs are would be important, and if it is out, then it will get dealt with. I have found Colt to be accommodating, but like in any business, it will depend on who you deal with. Best of luck with resolving your issue.

[Bluffton45]

I have yet to read where anyone has been able to show that this hole is in fact bored "OFF".
Unless something has changed, Colt slides are "FORGED" and that results in dimensional variances in the overall exterior of the part.


But aren't the slides machined after forging & shouldn't that "true" it up?

Ron

[west9883]

west9883,

Did you receive a copy of the Product Service Repair Order? What did the hand written notes say as to problem, evaluation and any repair as well as test firing results.

Wow guys, I just got home from work and I am impressed at the amount of responses to this thread. It's been great to read all the varying opinions about this matter.

As of this moment, I am still waiting to hear back from Colt. I'm sure I'll receive an email tomorrow sometime. But I am definitely going to ask what the specs are when I do come in contact with someone from Colt. And as far as the repair order goes there was a communication breakdown and the R.O. says "repair slide to frame fit, adjust to factory spec, test for function." As soon as I saw this I called Colt while they still had my pistol in the shop, and I spoke to a CSR who said that "it shouldn't be a problem." One week later I received the pistol back with the same condition that I sent it in for.

Don't get me wrong guys this isn't an anti-Colt thread, I love my Colts and I don't have any plans to part with any of them. I actually plan on purchasing a Commander and an older Gold Cup sometime in the future to add to my collection. However, since this is a commonly recognized issue with Colts, I don't want anybody to think that this problem is going or gone away. For instance, I visit all the local funshops often, and four out of five of the new Colt Rail Guns that I have had a chance to look at have this issue. I want everyone to be aware of this when they go looking for their next or first Colt 1911. And if enough people pass on purchasing these less than perfect runs of Colts, then Colt will figure it out and stop shipping these pistols to dealers.

Happy New Year!

[P Kelly]

That's so minor that if it was mine I wouldn't worry about it, unless it impeded function or caused premature wear. I've seen some I'd definetly send back, this isn't one of them.

[DuckRyder]

The more pictures I see the more I think the folks that say it is due to the polishing of the slide radiuses are correct.

At any rate, I would keep sending it back until they get it right.

[paul45]

I also think the problem is so minor, I would not have even noticed it.

However, in an effort to keep a paying customer happy, I think Colt should make the effort to keep the customer satisfied, even if they have to bite the bullet a little.

The tunnel issue is from polishing, not from "drilling", is it not?

[Rio Vista Slim]

I also think the problem is so minor, I would not have even noticed it.

However, in an effort to keep a paying customer happy, I think Colt should make the effort to keep the customer satisfied, even if they have to bite the bullet a little.

The tunnel issue is from polishing, not from "drilling", is it not?
I agree with Paul, and all his points. That is the reason I didn't complain about the issue with my Series 70 when I finally noticed it.

[OD*]

The more pictures I see the more I think the folks that say it is due to the polishing of the slide radiuses are correct. That's a good question? I thought that too, but after checking my Colt's, all of them but two are slightly thinner on the left side (looking at the muzzle), one of them is all the way back to 1915 oops, that's the frames age, the slide is an Ithaca, so it appears it hasn't always been just Colt. Now I'm wondering if it isn't something in the manufacturing process. It's no big deal to me, you would never notice it without careful examination.

[Nettles23]

I guess I look for how well the pistol functions, or how reliable it is and how accurate it is. I am happy if my handgun launches lead reliably and accurately.


Are you suggesting that prospective Colt buyers should lower their expectations as Colt lowers its quality? I mean the gun still shoots. I do not understand that logic, could you explain it in length. If the pistols were $400 to $500 pistols and worked, I might agree with you. So I am confused. I have to agree with Hawkmoon! To me it is a mistake and should simply be repaired and everyone goes about their business.
Am I missing something?
Nettles23

[Dreadnought]

But aren't the slides machined after forging & shouldn't that "true" it up?

RonI'm pretty sure "forged" means the steel came from a billet blank which was hammered into shape as opposed to a billet which was cast into shape, and the billet was then machined to make the final shapes the parts are in. It's not like the parts are stamped (as I understand, tra's post indicates stamping) into the final shapes. From my limited experience with machining, my best guess for the process for making a slide is a block of steel goes into the CNC mill, blanks are cut out of the billet, the flats are milled, then the barrel tunnel and spring tunnel bored, and upper lugs milled (as they would have to be located using flats as references), the firing pin and extractor tunnels bored and milled. If someone with a cosmetically defective slide and some measuring tools would be kind enough, could you make some measurements of whether the centerlines of the spring and barrel tunnels match and whether they are actually on-center of the slide?
The picture posted by the OP looks like maybe the machinist was a little ham-fisted and ground off more of the right side giving a lot more chamfer. It might be an optical collusion (as we say around here in the shop), but one a QC inspector *should* spot.

[junior-colt]

I have yet to read where anyone has been able to show that this hole is in fact bored "OFF".

The important issue is, IS IT TRUE WITH THE BARREL BORE.

Unless something has changed, Colt slides are "FORGED" and that results in dimensional variances in the overall exterior of the part.

Appearing to be drilled "OFF" has absolutely nothing to do with whether it actually is.

I think Colt should machine all surfaces of their 1911's and raise the price to around 1500.00 to keep all of you happy.

Other 1911 manufacturers have less cosmetic issues with their products because they employ cheaper methods of manufacture, such as MIM and modern CASTING processes.

Let's hope Colt does not resort to these, CHEAPER, and PRETTIER manufacturing processes just to silence this nonsense.

I think those in charge here , would do us all and Colt a favor by addressing this spring tunnel fiasco and explain to everyone the truth behind this latest ,IT AIN'T MADE RIGHT......They all are off a little, it's the way it is, and always has been.
I am mechanical engineer and see the same way as you. I haven't sat with a Colt and inspection tools but from the pictures it seems as the exterior dimensions are the only difference. I dont beleive the hole is offcenter or out of runout tolerances. If dimensions were off on the ID, the gun would not run properly.

[Hawkmoon]

I am mechanical engineer and see the same way as you. I haven't sat with a Colt and inspection tools but from the pictures it seems as the exterior dimensions are the only difference. I dont beleive the hole is offcenter or out of runout tolerances. If dimensions were off on the ID, the gun would not run properly.
Of course it would. The recoil spring is flexible in all directions. The location and/or angle of the recoil spring plug could be off-center or off angle much more than shown in these photos and the pistol would still function.

[feathers73]

It would be interesting for Colt 1911 owners who happen to own micrometers to take some measurements and post them along with a picture. We could then get an idea of what is "normal" versus not normal versus what the drawings/spec say. Also, has anyone ever experience a failure of material at this location? Never heard of it myself.

[paul45]

It would be interesting for Colt 1911 owners who happen to own micrometers to take some measurements and post them along with a picture. We could then get an idea of what is "normal" versus not normal versus what the drawings/spec say. Also, has anyone ever experience a failure of material at this location? Never heard of it myself.

That has been done on and off for a number of years. I guess a search here and on 1911forum might be useful.

[Bluffton45]

Hawk is exactly right. There are various places in any gun where they may be out of spec and very objectionable to the eye but the gun will still perform normally.

The eye naturally picks up center. It can be quite surprising to see how small a dimension the naked eye can see.
Ron

[Eddy Munster]

But aren't the slides machined after forging & shouldn't that "true" it up?

Ron
I am inclined to agree with you. I work in a forge shop. (when Im not laid off) The parts we make are for airplanes, not pistols so there may be some differances but the basics would still apply. We would take a red hot piece of steel put it in the press and hit it. When it comes out it is now the rough shape of what we are making. These pieces get hit several times in the press with different dies that further refine shape. After all that it would then go to the machine shop to get machined. The machine shop takes off quite a bit so the final part is much smaller then when when we first start with.

[Pokem]

God bless junior members, tra hit the nail on the head, I think my Special Combat Gov. is fantastic, but for $1400. I think Gold Cups are one of the best 1911 deals out there in the $830-900 area. Should Colt go higher and compete with the $2-4K 1911 makers and make everything perfect?

I've got news for you all, my only Wilson and only Nighthawk are both back at their makers for the second time EACH right now. My four Colts (each one began life at less than half the cost of my semi-customs) are getting all of the carry duty and all of the range time in the mean-time.

No Colt that I have ever owned (six total) has EVER needed to go back to the factory. I've never sat and stared at the piddly stuff like in this thread's topic and am glad that I never had time for stuff like this. Besides, I've been too busy shipping my 2.5K semi-customs out just trying to get them to function at all!

[TonyW]

Because of this thread I just examined my Colt Delta from the 80's. I don't think I ever examined this area of the gun closely before since I always had expected Colts would be perfect. And in fact it is. So what has happened to Colt? I would think the current production shows inexcusable sloppiness. True, this defect won't affect the gun's reliability - but I guess the old time machinists that took pride in their work are no longer there.

[WhoaCowboy]

Thanks, Pokem. Well said!!

[daveyisgreat]

My O1991 I got about a year ago, brand new, first 1911, first Colt, second gun, is absolutely perfect. I have no complaints, other than I wish I had it right now. Colt has it and they are making it awesomer...


By the way, I also occasionally visit guitar message boards, you should hear the grief Gibson gets! And few will deny that a Gibson Les Paul is IT.

[daveohno]

Because of this thread I just examined my Colt Delta from the 80's. I don't think I ever examined this area of the gun closely before since I always had expected Colts would be perfect. And in fact it is. So what has happened to Colt? I would think the current production shows inexcusable sloppiness. True, this defect won't affect the gun's reliability - but I guess the old time machinists that took pride in their work are no longer there.

Or maybe they are now 75 instead of 55..........

[AJD]

To be honest I think that the increased awareness on this message board of this potential "flaw" is the main reason why people are posting more about this and not Colt shipping more pistols out with this problem.

I've seen it happen this way many times...

"I was reading about those off center recoil spring tunnels on another thread and ran to check my Colt 1911 and mines off center too!"

It is more likely a product of this issue being brought to otherwise oblivious people's attention then Colt actually shipping more and more pistols with off center holes.

[Pokem]

Thanks, Pokem. Well said!!

You're welcome, and thank you Sir (Great minds from Arizona and all that!).

[daveyisgreat]

I just came across this picture of what is supposed to be a Springfield GI model? Anyway, this one seems to have the same "quirk" that's being discussed...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2408/2091666020_21c1cc7f70_o.jpg

[west9883]

In my opinion, that's a little more acceptable since that model Springfield is made in Brazil, and only sells for a little over $500. However, I've always thought those Mil-Spec and GI models are great deals since they have forged frames at such a low price point. I wouldn't mind owning one after I satisfy my appetite for Colts.

[BadaBing11]

In my opinion, if I could choose between a gun with this flaw and one without, I would choose the one without. Gotta wonder when a defect is that visible, how many "unseen" issues might the product have?

I do happen to direct a Quality organization for a major corporation. With today's six sigma manufacturing techniques, and ISO 22000 standards, there are quality tools in place that would not only stop these issues from going to consumers, but they would vastly reduce the number of items produced incorrectly in the first place.

In the retail business, the consumer provides the definition of quality. If the manufacturer can't develop specs that meet that consumer's need... then the rest is history. (Of course there are minimal functional specs for safety, etc that are the ante for every mfgtr) The perception is what will sell them or vere them away. A new consumer to the category is most likely to be negatively impacted by this.

Colt is capable of doing better than this. They just like many other manufacturers have likely chosen to cut corners on quality processes and inspection due to economic pressure.

The great thing about this forum is you guys & gals help people see past the "perception" into reality. Yes,I agree that this is a cosmetic frustration to some. However it is great to hear the other side that still says the reliability piece is in tact.

And it seems the good news for Colt is that the money they are spending on quality, is where gunowners need it most... in reliability.

Even so, if it were me, I'd want that fixed.

Regards,

Jeff

[royal barnes]

I have a good friend who is a very competent 1911 smith. He is also a former IPSC shooter. His Series 70 has exactly the same problem. He said it was that way when he built it for competition and it never failed to function properly through 170,000 rounds. Well, once, when he loaded a round with an upside down primer. One of mine has the "problem" and three others do not. None has ever failed to function. I don't really understand all the hoopla!!

[OD*]

His Series 70 has exactly the same problem. He said it was that way when he built it...I don't doubt that at all, my 1950 Commercial is slightly thinner on one side than the other, this is nothing new.

[xkimberman]

West9883 don't feel like the Lone Ranger my gun came back not fixed to. On the other side of the coin my new Gold Cup Trophy has been flawless and everything fits llike it should. This tells me Colt can do it right when they want to.

[zenfly]

I don't think it is that bad. I've seen older colts much worse. I think Colt considered this within Spec. Does anyone know what the specification on the thickness tolerance on this part? Their drawing should have that measurement.

Thats why I stopped buying Colts a long time ago...I still have 3 good ones..

"maybe it's within Colt specs" WHAT??? ok...

I'd love to do a new Kitchen for a Colt big wig and hang a few cabinets crooked and then tell him it's within my specs...I would want my money back for those guns...

I'd buy a Taurus before another Colt and that makes me very sad as an American...

[egumpher]

I have a good friend who is a very competent 1911 smith. He is also a former IPSC shooter. His Series 70 has exactly the same problem. He said it was that way when he built it for competition and it never failed to function properly through 170,000 rounds. Well, once, when he loaded a round with an upside down primer. One of mine has the "problem" and three others do not. None has ever failed to function. I don't really understand all the hoopla!!

Hello and agree,

Consumers have evolved or maybe always have been fixated on perceived quality rather than actual quality.

Quality is simply making something to the specifications. If you design a piece of junk and make it to spec then you have quality piece of junk. Remember that the WW1, WW2, Korean War and Vietnam War 1911s shaked, rattled and scuffed their way without problems. Its not jewelry, its a pistol.

I wish everyone would detail strip their 1911's and compare the actual working parts of a Colt to the working parts of the competition in the same price range. I think that everyone would quickly learn how well built Colts are. In fact, I have so much faith in the quality of Colt internal parts that I replace the internals of other 1911s with Colt parts because I have learned that Colt make some of the best small internal parts in the industry for 1/2 the cost.

After this experience I really don't care much if I have a slide rub mark or not because I know that my 1911s will outlast and outshoot the competition.

Rgsd
Eric

[xkimberman]

Zenfly "Hit the Nail on the head". I know a lot of people don't like the enternal parts of a Kimber and others. I have a Gold Match that has had a bunch of rounds through it and not a problem. A local smith was correcting the angle of a sear out of a new Colt and it crumbled. He did not blast colt the just said it was a bad casting. If my mim parts fail I will replace them with steel. I love my new Gold Cup. the fit & finish is a good as any brand out there. I have my LW back at the shop where I bought it on consingment. I bought a Crimson Carry 4 inch to replace the Colt. Will I buy another Colt, yes if I can take a look at it before I buy it. I ordered the LW. Colt can and does build nice pistols. I think most of there issues are cosmetic.

[michael t]

I have better things to do. Than worry about little things like that. I have yet to have a Colt fail to work . Can't say that about the Para or Kimber I HAD. Both replaced by a Colt.
Its a minor issue that some are I believe blowing out of reason . Colts are a mid priced mass produced pistol . They are not a Ed Brown, Wilson, Night hawk, Heck I paid more for my Dan Wesson than any Colt I have If you want a several 1000 dollar custom pistol then buy one. If you want a bet your life on carry pistol Buy a Colt.

I don't think BG is going to notice or comment on this minor issue while looking at that end of the pistol.

[zenfly]

I have better things to do. Than worry about little things like that. I have yet to have a Colt fail to work . Can't say that about the Para or Kimber I HAD. Both replaced by a Colt.
Its a minor issue that some are I believe blowing out of reason . Colts are a mid priced mass produced pistol . They are not a Ed Brown, Wilson, Night hawk, Heck I paid more for my Dan Wesson than any Colt I have If you want a several 1000 dollar custom pistol then buy one. If you want a bet your life on carry pistol Buy a Colt.

I don't think BG is going to notice or comment on this minor issue while looking at that end of the pistol.

Thats a pretty valid point there...I have some Colts that are very good too but it's about the pride of ownership and pride in their construction and there are a few that are not satisfied with both thats all..Actually the third thing is the cust svs..

[Bluffton45]

Gotta wonder when a defect is that visible, how many "unseen" issues might the product have?

I do happen to direct a Quality organization for a major corporation. With today's six sigma manufacturing techniques, and ISO 22000 standards, there are quality tools in place that would not only stop these issues from going to consumers, but they would vastly reduce the number of items produced incorrectly in the first place.

In the retail business, the consumer provides the definition of quality. If the manufacturer can't develop specs that meet that consumer's need... then the rest is history. (Of course there are minimal functional specs for safety, etc that are the ante for every mfgtr) The perception is what will sell them or vere them away. A new consumer to the category is most likely to be negatively impacted by this.

Colt is capable of doing better than this. They just like many other manufacturers have likely chosen to cut corners on quality processes and inspection due to economic pressure.

The great thing about this forum is you guys & gals help people see past the "perception" into reality. Yes,I agree that this is a cosmetic frustration to some. However it is great to hear the other side that still says the reliability piece is in tact.
Jeff

THANK YOU!! At last something more than preference or opinion. Nothing wrong w/ those, we all do it & have em but here is something definitive from a person in the business
Ron

[egumpher]

THANK YOU!! At last something more than preference or opinion. Nothing wrong w/ those, we all do it & have em but here is something definitive from a person in the business
Ron

Hello,

Please don't read too much into Six Sigma for low volume production manufacturing.

Until we perform a Six Sigma Design of experiments to determine if the process shift that made the "seemingly" off set spring tunnel is actual a performance problem then we may fix nothing but rather create more problems. This is a lot of work for a “non-problem” problem.

For example, what if Colt aligns the spring tunnel to the outside of the dust cover to give the impression that it was made right but then so makes four functional problems because the tunnel isn't aligned with the barrel?

These aren’t satellites and it’s expensive to implement six sigma for low volume production.

Rgds
Eric

[BadaBing11]

Just because it is low volume doesn't mean the principles do not apply.

A DOE is usually the last step after the rules of common sense and some basic statistical principles are applied. This is a capability issue. They do it right sometimes and sometimes they don't. I didn't say it wouldn't cost money to fix it, but there are clearly some consumers that Colt will lose as a result. Is the investment less than or equal to the lost profit and rework from returned pistols? Don't know. That is only something Colt can answer.

It is all a value equation. If Colt feels it has the best profitability without addressing this ( as the case appears ) that is what they will do.

I agree, they are not satellites. But in today's world all companies need to consider what will keep them competitive. Also agree Six sigma can be expensive.

Other companies are getting this down without a problem. It is not anywhere close to rocket science to fix it. Colt does some things better than the others as well.

I know I wouldn't want new cabinets hung crooked

Regards,

Jeff

[egumpher]

Hello,

The Marine MEU(SOC) team doesn't seem to mind a slide rub

:dead_hors
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/ewgewgewg/060808-M-3378S-011-mod.jpg

I'll be willing to bet that their pistols are to spec!

Rgds
Eric

[WhoaCowboy]

Hey Eric, loved the pic. As you know we have discussed the QC issue previously in the CE threads. I will also admit that prior to joining M1911 not that long ago and reading Hunter's review and all the postings on the CE, I would have never given the slide rub a second thought. But like a lot of noobs I got all excited, did the photo postings, etc. I sent it in to Colt and the "problem" was rectified. It is great interacting with a lot of fellow Colt's owners both on the forum and by pm. M1911 is my one and only forum experience. I am having my son co-register on his newly issued permit my NY licensed guns even though all but one are now in AZ. When they totalled them up there were 41 of them! Since my first gun, a little Colt's Cobra purchased around 1975, I have never sent one back to the manufacturer. Colt's. S&W,Walther, Ruger ,etc. They all went bang and still do! I have three generations of Colt's SAA. All went bang, some after over a hundred years and they still do. I guess what I'm trying to say is that these forums are wonderful sources of information most of the time but they certainly can generate a bit of self propagating hysteria on occasion. But I do enjoy the give and take..Regards to all......

[egumpher]

Hello and thanks for the pep-talk Whoacowboy......Next we will work on "go bang" and "hit the target" ;)

Rgds
Eric

[TonyW]

This whole thread boils down to modern manufacturing in the age of CNC and MIM. And this applies to Colt and Kimber - as well as the high volume semi-custom companies. With CNC, a company does not need high priced and skilled machinists. They need CAD experts and ordinary folks to monitor the machines. The few highly skilled machinists that remain are in the custom and complaint/repair departments. Much less expensive to produce a gun this way - and in the vast majority of cases the guns will work just fine. There are only a few custom smiths now that take over-sized parts and carefully fit them by hand. And despite what seems like an exorbitant price of 3 grand or so - these custom smiths are not getting rich. Just the way it is with labor costs (and the cost of living) today- and the competition with labor costs overseas.

Now the cutting bits on a CNC machine are very expensive. There is a point where they should be replaced, but there is a lot of pressure for profits to not replace these parts as soon as they should be - leading to the off-center, uneven dustcovers pictured - and some other things. Does this hurt the reliability of the gun? No. Should this have been caught earlier? Yes- but then the cost of the guns would be higher. Should the manufacturer fix the 'fault'? If they did, then maybe hundreds of frames would have to be junked. Not likely to happen.

As for MIM, such parts rarely fail - and if they do, it isn't expensive for a company to replace them. Once the molds and machines are set up, the company saves megabucks. So, as was said, if a sear crumbles while being filed - it is just a poor casting. Tell that to the widow of the guy who just lost his life when a part failed. But what are the odds of that happening? Today, MTBF (mean time between failure), or in the case of MIM, the odds of a failure, drive manufacturing and costs.

As Eric stated, the active forces could care less how a weapon looks. I don't ever remember looking closely at the machining of the guns I was issued - they just had to work and pass inspection on cleanliness.

Did any of you see on TV the segment on AK-47s being made by kids over charcoal fires? The test one made before buying one of these guns was to fire off a magazine. That gets down to the true purpose of a gun.

But for the majority of us on this forum, we are looking for perfection besides reliability. Back in the days of the bright Royal Blue that Colt did - we could expect that. Unfortunately not today. If we want that today, the price is generally over 3 grand.

[OD*]

...but they certainly can generate a bit of self propagating hysteria on occasion.Amen brother. ;)

[WhoaCowboy]

But for the majority of us on this forum, we are looking for perfection besides reliability. Back in the days of the bright Royal Blue that Colt did - we could expect that. Unfortunately not today. If we want that today, the price is generally over 3 grand.

It seems we are all on a quest for perfection. For me the perfect fitting boot, hat, horse, gun. But eventually we settle for what works, fits, and satisfies our needs. Your description of the modern manufacturing process appears right on the mark. Machines vs machinists. And you did mention the Colt's Custom Shop. The SAA, WWI, and the Special Combat Government among others are crafted here. I have no desire to spend 2K-3K plus for a one off custom or a EB, LB, Nighthawk, Wilson etc. But the SAAs, and the others I mentioned previously are beautiful and very well made. So with this economy and my purchase of the SCG Carry my quest has ended. It appears perfectly made, beautifully blued ,totally reliable for hundreds of rounds and extremely accurate. I'll defer to Hunter and his upcoming report on the O1970CY. But this gun is no safe queen. It is a daily use tool. Cared for, respected but carried even as I compose this post. IMHO Colt's still delivers the best bang for the buck-production or custom ;)

[Eddy Munster]

If you and I can see there is a problem then you can bet money colt knows about it. If I brought home a new colt and found this problem I dont think I would lose sleep over it. If it was one of the worst ones I may send it back to colt to fix. That said, I just expect a higher level of quality from the original maker of the model 1911. It may be in spec, but in aint pretty. I am glad colt has not resorted to using cheaper materials. I do feel this is an issue that they should fix if they havent already. This thread and the amount of posts prove that it is a HUGE issue for some while others find it not so bad. If I were in the business of selling a product, I would want my consumer base to be happy. I hope colt feels the same way. I wont let this stop me from buying another colt but I will look at it close before I do. I wont just give them a pass just because they are colt.

[jda]

It's cold outside, and people have too much time to gun handle and foster silly concerns instead of shooting.

[WhoaCowboy]

Should be about 70 or so here in AZ today. Going shooting first and then saddle up. Take care all.....

[d90king]

I think I miss the old Colt, at least the pistol had soul and it was human error blamed for mistakes, not these new fangled wonder machines ...

[Nettles23]

It's cold outside, and people have too much time to gun handle and foster silly concerns instead of shooting.

Wonder if JMB would foster such silly concerns? ;)
Nettles23

[MOZART]

It seems we are all on a quest for perfection. For me the perfect fitting boot, hat, horse, gun. But eventually we settle for what works, fits, and satisfies our needs. Your description of the modern manufacturing process appears right on the mark. Machines vs machinists. And you did mention the Colt's Custom Shop. The SAA, WWI, and the Special Combat Government among others are crafted here. I have no desire to spend 2K-3K plus for a one off custom or a EB, LB, Nighthawk, Wilson etc. But the SAAs, and the others I mentioned previously are beautiful and very well made. So with this economy and my purchase of the SCG Carry my quest has ended. It appears perfectly made, beautifully blued ,totally reliable for hundreds of rounds and extremely accurate. I'll defer to Hunter and his upcoming report on the O1970CY. But this gun is no safe queen. It is a daily use tool. Cared for, respected but carried even as I compose this post. IMHO Colt's still delivers the best bang for the buck-production or custom ;)


Thank you for that post sir, very nice indeed.
I have a series 70 re-issue at Colt as we speak "ejection port problem" I have no doubt that Colt will do their very best to take care of me, i was nervous, not anymore.
I have had all types of 1911 pistols but there is truly something about a Colt. They feel different, they feel special, they are. But, we all know that quite well.

[WhoaCowboy]

You are most very welcome, my kind friend.

[BigM-Perazzi]

How's this for a brand new, out of the box, December 2009 manufactured Colt Gold Cup Trophy....

I can't even get to target center....

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/2010pics_047-1.jpg

[egumpher]

How's this for a brand new, out of the box, December 2009 manufactured Colt Gold Cup Trophy....

I can't even get to target center....

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/2010pics_047-1.jpg


Hello,

It looks like you are shooting to the left and probably low left too. If you are new to 1911s and more powerful pistols then this if common with new shooters.

Left and low left groups are because you are pushing the trigger, anticipating the shot and the pistol pulls out of your finger grip (right hand shooting).

See if you can borrow a laser bore sight or buy one for $40 to learn were the barrel is pointed relative to your sights.

If its any consolation, I shoot left and low left when I get tired and fatigued.

Rgds
Eric

[Nettles23]

Hello BigM-Perazzi,
Do not despair. Maybe be nervous. Let Colt have a chance to rectify the situation. I think it is much more likely that they will fix it properly.
This is why I counsel checking, before accepting. Good Luck.
Let us know of the outcome.

Nettles23

[Ric4509]

Let me check my Colts. I didn't really pay attention to its QC as long as the bullet hits what I want them to. My XSE Combat Elite had an issue with the left side of the slide rubbing against the spring tunnel.

[BigM-Perazzi]

Hello,

It looks like you are shooting to the left and probably low left too. If you are new to 1911s and more powerful pistols then this if common with new shooters.

Left and low left groups are because you are pushing the trigger, anticipating the shot and the pistol pulls out of your finger grip (right hand shooting).

See if you can borrow a laser bore sight or buy one for $40 to learn were the barrel is pointed relative to your sights.

Rgds
Eric

Lol, yes, I should have looked it over better.... somethings you just don't expect....Called Colt, they said "yeah, send it in"...

Eric, if you will notice, the rear sight assembly is installed .020 to the right of centerline. There's barely enough travel in the sight to get to center at 50 feet!!... Normal manufacturing tolerances of +-.005 are acceptable... +-.020 is not!! somebody in QC was sleeping on the job....

These were shot at 21 feet!! all were shot left handed, except the upper right hand one which was shot right handed..


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/2010pics_050.jpg

[egumpher]

Eric, if you will notice, the rear sight assembly is installed .020 to the right of centerline. There's barely enough travel in the sight to get to center at 50 feet!!... Normal manufacturing tolerances of +-.005 are acceptable... *-.020 is not!! somebody in QC was sleeping on the job....

These were shot at 21 feet!! all were shot left handed, except the upper right hand one which was shot right handed..


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/BigM-Perazzi/2010pics_050.jpg

Hello,

The picture that you published looks like the sight is all the way to the right which is an indication that you where tiring to compensate for shooting left. Thank you for the additional information.

Rgsd
Eric

[BigM-Perazzi]

Hello,

The picture that you published looks like the sight is all the way to the right which is an indication that you where tiring to compensate for shooting left. Thank you for the additional information.

Rgsd
Eric


Is the si

Eric, the sight blade is all the way to the left, because the sight base is installed too far to the right on the slide...

[Nikolai]

Hello,
My .02 cents, from a 1911 fan, not a Colt fan (or opponent). Defects, aesthetic or otherwise, are going to happen. What makes the difference is a manufacturer who responds to a customers complaints and problems in a professional manner and at least makes appropriate steps towards ensuring customer satisfaction. In all cases in this thread, whether it came from Colt or any other maker, I'd request action to be taken to make my support of their company worthwhile on my end. I paid good money and expect a product to be worth it what I paid. I give them my business, and I expect their business in return when or if I need it.

Brand loyalty means nothing to me, I look at the end product. I wouldn't accept obvious defects whether it inhibits function or not, nor would I dismiss the problems of others based on a name of a company.

-Nikolai

[egumpher]

Eric, the sight blade is all the way to the left, because the sight base is installed too far to the right on the slide...


Hello,

The good news is that Colt will fix it.

FWIW I needed to send back Walthers, Springfields (twice for the same TRP Operator) and Taurus too.

Rgsd
Eric

[BigM-Perazzi]

I'm sure they will... It's just disheartening. I've waited 30 years to get a Gold Cup.... *sigh*...

:sd:

[egumpher]

I'm sure they will... It's just disheartening. I've waited 30 years to get a Gold Cup.... *sigh*...

:sd:


Hang in there and buy more ammo in the mean time.

Rgsd
Eric

[xkimberman]

Good luck Big M-Perrazzi. I have not had good luck with Colts warranty work but others have. I think most would have missed the rear sight being milled off center. Dang can't they even do that right. I have a new production Colt Cup Trophy SA which has a rounded slide. They still use the flat top slide on the blue guns which looks much nicer. My GC has been flawless. My LW had to go back to the factory and they returned it pretty much like I sent it to them. I really like Colts but there QC seems to be hit or mis. Good luck and keep us posted. When you get one thats good there is nothing else like it.

[AFMan]

I'm not sure I've ever seen a Colt whose spring tunnel had a perfectly contoured exterior.

I'm not one to buy customs, so this had never really bothered me as long as it's not so severe I'd worry about the side-wall integrity.

Dust covers on the frame often exhibit a bit of inconsistency as well, but as long as the tunnel doesn't rub against the cover, I'm good!! :p

[Nettles23]

Flip side of the coin, I have never seen a Colt with the uneven recoil spring tube. That is until they have popped up in such quantity on the net. Makes me worry about a new Colt purchase. I agree that every manufacturer had it's lemons and I won't purchase any gun unless I can not accept it and get a replacement.
Also I do agree that when you get a good Colt, there is nothing else like it.

Nettles23

[rebut]

I may be nuts, but I just looked at the spring tube on 2 Commander Lightweights under bright daylight at my window. They both looked off center. Then holding them the exact same way in my hands, I did a 180, from facing due south to facing due north under the same light. Boom, they still looked off center...but to the other side. :confused: ...could it be an optical illusion?...I took the same 2 pistols and centered them under an 8" diameter circular flourescent light with a maginfying glass built into it and what do you know?...both looked perfect. So is it a trick of the light, and is that why Colt sent your's back "unrepaired"? I'm new to 1911s and hold no bias toward Colt Customer Service, but could it be that simple?

[Landman]

I may be nuts, but I just looked at the spring tube on 2 Commander Lightweights under bright daylight at my window. They both looked off center. Then holding them the exact same way in my hands, I did a 180, from facing due south to facing due north under the same light. Boom, they still looked off center...but to the other side. :confused: ...could it be an optical illusion?...I took the same 2 pistols and centered them under an 8" diameter circular flourescent light with a maginfying glass built into it and what do you know?...both looked perfect. So is it a trick of the light, and is that why Colt sent your's back "unrepaired"? I'm new to 1911s and hold no bias toward Colt Customer Service, but could it be that simple?

I noticed something similar to that before with the rear sight of a Glock pistol. It looked off center to one side but then when you turned the pistol around it looked off center to the other side. However, if you looked directly down at the sight with the light above it was centered. The shadow from the lighting can create an optical illusion. I don't know about this effect on the spring tunnel issue though. I have never seen a Colt with the offset spring tunnel issue except for pictures on the internet.

[Mhanis]

I don't think the mic at work was illusioned......(is that a word? :confused: )

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii44/mhanis-colt/end.jpg

[DuckRyder]

west9883,

Did you ever hear back from Colt?

[afterburner]

WoW. That's visibly off center. What gives? A Colt too? SHEESH. I thought they were the best

[cheap shot]

Maybe it's me, but the barrel bushing bore seems to be off-centered as well.

[tnhawk]

I like the Colts I have and plan to get additional ones. I will not buy a Colt without having a chance to examine it first however.

[BigM-Perazzi]

Me thinks they have some manufacturing difficulties....

I'm certain the mil-spec guns don't pass with these faults....

Ooops, I forgot, they don't make them for the military anymore, right?