My "new" Colt M1911A1!

[ORCA72]

Hi again to all members, users and readers of the forum!

After a veeery long time I finally come back to post a new thread. The reason is this very gun.
It's a Colt manufactured M1911A1 with the serial # 809314 that I recently acquired. The slide and receiver both show this matching #. The gun seems to be in original WWII condition with the parkerized finish worn but not too badly. The slide to frame fit is really quite good, no real "rattle". The seller, a local arms dealer, told me the gun came from the collection of an old gentleman who just recently passed away.
Besides the original old proof marks and acceptance stamps it shows absolutely no post WWII or contemporary proof marks, which is usually the case with old military guns that came into civilian use, at least here in Europe.
From the serial # it seems that the gun was manufactured and shipped from Colt in 1942, right? How can I possibly best find out more about the history behind my gun? Should I contact Colt's Manufacturing LLC or are there other sources? Can anyone here provide additional info? I would also be very interested to learn more about the proof marks on the gun. What's exactly the name behind the "WB" acceptance mark?

What is the current value for such a gun in this condition? I am just curious to learn whether I got a good or fair deal on the gun. Good original M1911A1 are not too common any more around here...
The barrel and barrel lugs seem to be in a very good to excellent condition, so it doesn't seem to have been shot too much, rather just carried around and later kept in a safe.

Any comments, infos and advices are most welcome! I am very curious and hope to get some interesting feedback. Meanwhile with my very best regards from Austria,

Christian


http://www.pictureupload.de/pictures/250809154850_Colt_1911A1_1.jpg
http://www.pictureupload.de/pictures/250809155129_Colt_1911A1_3.jpg
http://www.pictureupload.de/pictures/250809155410_Colt_1911A1_2.jpg
http://www.pictureupload.de/pictures/250809155506_Colt_1911A1_4.jpg

[rekladan]

That's a nice looking Colt!

Do all the small parts look like they're the same age and condition as the rest of the gun?

[Jim Watson]

"WB" is for chief inspector Waldemar Broberg Colt S/N 750,500 to 861,000

Look around at www.coolgunsite.com for information on most characteristics.

Colt will charge US$75 for a factory letter that will probably tell you nothing but when the gun was delivered to the US Army.

[RickB]

That's very nice, and looks a lot like my '42 Colt. The slide and frame finish match, while the small parts - thumb safety and mag catch - have a contrasting finish. In the U.S., that gun would probably sell for $1500.

[ORCA72]

Hey,

thanks for all your comments!!!

@rekladan: Yes, all the small parts seem to be absolutely authentic! They are NOT parkerized as slide and frame, but seem to be blued! As I mentioned before, the gun seems to have "slept" in some knowledgeable collector's safe for decades.

@Jim Watson: Thanks for the provided info on the ispector's name and also for the link! I guess for the moment I will refrain from contacting Colt for more info...

@RickB: Hmm, if your calculation is correct, then I guess I got really quite a good deal on the gun, since I paid EUR € 680 (that are approximately US $ 975!).

I really hope for even more comments and info! Please don't hesitate...
Thanks a lot in advance!

The magazine that came with the gun is totally blued and without any markings. So I first thought it to be not original, but this seems to be a misinterpretation of facts.

Any special advices for maintenance and care? I really plan to at least from time to time also shoot the gun - only with 230gr hardball of course! What do you think about that?!

Right now I am hunting for accessories for my Colt (additional magazines, belt and shoulder holsters, mag pouches...).

Who knows what the "P" marks below the mag release button and on top of the slide in front of the rear sight stand for? On the right side, the trigger guard shows the mark "88" and on the left side an "R" and some kond of "triangle" (with a "P" inside" just below). The slide's underside on the rear shows an "UN" mark and an not too deep struck "G". The barrel shows an "F" on the right and an "P" on the left side of the flanks of the chain link mount and is totally blued. The "plastic" grip panels have no ribs on their insides and have oval "outcuts" or hollows.

The gun as a whole exhibits some kind of cool understatement compared to my other, newer 1911s of different manufacturers from Colt to Smith&Wesson, including Safari Arms and Detonics. The sights seem to be very delicate, but they served American soldiers well during decades of service and from WWII to Korea and Vietnam!

Looking forward to more posts! Cheers,

Christian

[Scott Gahimer]

The smal parts of the pistol are probably just dark, rather than blued, if original. The barrel has been changed. Te barrel in your pistol was amde by Flannery Bolt Company and is a field service replacement barrel, or is a barrel that was originally in a late WWII Ithaca or Remington Rand pistol.

The original Colt barrel that came in that pistol had a "G" on the bottom of the barrel, a "P" proof on the left lug and was marked "COLT 45 AUTO" on the left side of the chamber above the "P" proof.

The "88" marking is a Colt assembler's mark. The "R" is a Colt inspector's mark. The triangle-shaped VP is the Colt Veifed Proof (a seal of approval).

The "P" marks are firing proofs. The "W.B. in the box is the Ordnance Dept. Final Inspector's mark showing the pistol passed Govt. inspection and was accepted for the military. A civilian applied that mark.

The hollowback grips with wide rings around the screww holese are original to your pistol and are a transitional type grip seen only in the 801000-821000 serial range normally. Not all pistols in that range will have those grips, but most originally did.

The magazine should have a pinned base, not spot welded, to be an original Colt magazine.

A Colt factory letter will cost $100 and will not offer any information other than what we can provide here.

The W.B. final inspection mark appears on pistols from about 750000 up to about 845000. There are only a few strays past 845000 that wil bemarked W.B. There are only 2 known pistols in the 860xxx serial range that are W.B. marked. Almost all pistols after 845000 were G.H.D. marked until July 1945.

Condition appears to be about 90%. Value would be about $1500 here in the U.S. for such a pistol.

Thanks for sharing your new find.

[ORCA72]

Dear Scott,

thanks so much for the load of insight and information you provided me with! It's so interesting and exciting to learn more about the history of such a gun that was produced 67 years ago during times of war and that travelled a long way from Hartford to Vienna/Austria. Although I litterally "grew up" with Glocks - the Glock 17 in 9mm was and is as the "Pistole 80 (P-80)" the sidearm of the Austrian Armed Forces - and own several specimen, I got "infected" with the "1911 - virus" and ever since also wanted to once own a real military M1911 or M1911A1 besides my other 1911s.

What really delights me even more is the fact that I got the gun for less than the equivalent of $1000, when it's supposed to inherit a value of about $1500!

That means I not only got a fine gun but at the same time "saved money" although I know my girlfriend would not accept this argument! ;)

I do find it particularly interesting to learn that the barrel on the gun has been changed at some time. Even more since I am really quite convinced that the gun was rather "untouched" after it's service life in the U.S. Army. And the barrel really is in a very good condition. Is there any more info available on the "Flannery Bolt Company" that produced this barrel? So they made gun barrels during WWII as part of the war effort? Is the quality of their barrels good?

As I said before, I plan to leave the gun absolutely as it is! But I would really love to see how it performs and shoot some 230gr hardball with it just for the experience. That should not be a problem, right?! I mean I love this gun and am so happy to have found and acquired it, but it's not too precious to be shot a little bit, I guess. Should I first replace the recoil spring with a new one (from Wolff?!) before firing the gun?

What would be the best sources for contemporary holsters, mag pouches and magazines (not reproductions)?

Thanks again for all the info provided thus far! It really paid of big time to finally once more post a thread here in this forum. You are a great bunch of people! THANKS!!!

[Scott Gahimer]

...What really delights me even more is the fact that I got the gun for less than the equivalent of $1000, when it's supposed to inherit a value of about $1500!
That means I not only got a fine gun but at the same time "saved money" although I know my girlfriend would not accept this argument! ;)

Your savings is an investment. You've not spent anything as long as you invest wisely in the right pieces. The key to wise investments is knowledge. Learn the pistols as your first priority and familiarize yourself with the market as you go. Knowing before you buy is how to protect your investment.

...I do find it particularly interesting to learn that the barrel on the gun has been changed at some time. Even more since I am really quite convinced that the gun was rather "untouched" after it's service life in the U.S. Army.

If a barrel was not properly cleaned to counteract the results of the corrosive primers, only a few rounds might have damaged the barrel. Additionally, parts were designed to "drop-in" and be interchangeable, so anyone might have changed the barrel over the years. A swapped barrel is not terribly uncommon. Barrels, grips and magazines are normally the first things that end up being changed over time. I would not worry about it at this point. The pistol might be exactly as it left military service after WWII.

...And the barrel really is in a very good condition. Is there any more info available on the "Flannery Bolt Company" that produced this barrel? So they made gun barrels during WWII as part of the war effort? Is the quality of their barrels good?

Flannery Bolt Company took over operations to produce barrels for the war effort from Springfield Armory during WWII. The first Flannery "F"-marked barrels used in new production pistols show up in 1944 production pieces. The U.S. Govt. even provided barrels for new production pistols and charged those manufacturers back for the barrels. Flannery barrels used in new production pistols are most common in 1945 Ithaca pistols. Some were used in late 1944 Ithaca and Remington Rand production as well. The bulk of Flannery barrels were produced under contract as field service replacement parts.

The very best source of information available today is Charles W. Clawson's 3rd Edition Collector's Guide for the U.S. military M1911 and M1911A1 pistols. Feel free to contact me privately and I can help you acquire it and a photo CD with thousands of photos. The book has been out of print since 2003.

...As I said before, I plan to leave the gun absolutely as it is! But I would really love to see how it performs and shoot some 230gr hardball with it just for the experience. That should not be a problem, right?! I mean I love this gun and am so happy to have found and acquired it, but it's not too precious to be shot a little bit, I guess. Should I first replace the recoil spring with a new one (from Wolff?!) before firing the gun?

Damage is a possibility anytime a pistol is fired. Originality is therefore at risk with each shot fired. That said, your pistol was built to be tough and endure thousands of rounds being fired with regular maintenence. Originality was not a primary concern with the military, as it is with collectors today.

It is impossible to say how many rounds your pistol may have already fired. It is a used military pistol. It is 67 years old, as you've lready noted. Age does take a toll with anything mechanical.

I, personally, do not fire my collectibles. However, it's your choice what to do with your pistol. Your pistol is not 100% condition, and is not 100% original as produced. You got a good buy on your pistol. Even if something were to break, it would not be a total loss...unless a slide or frame were to crack. I would be most concerned about the hollowback grips. If they crack (they're not reinforced), they are nearly impossible to replace. Anything replaced is no longer original as well.

You are now the caretaker of a WWII collectible pistol. With proper care, the pistol will outlast you.

I, personally, have never swapped springs on any military .45 I've shot, but I try to preserve the originality of my collectibles. I do not fire them. I fire shooters, but they are modern commercials that are not as valuable to me. I fired my share of militay .45s while in military service. I understand your desire to shoot a piece of military history, but they all shoot and feel the same as any modern clone. I prefer to shoot and chance a $500 shooter as opposed to a collectible worth much more.

Others who shoot regularly, suggest swapping springs. We simply have different perspectives regarding the role of the pistols today. See the thread "Should I fire my pistol..." in the sticky section at the top of the board.

...What would be the best sources for contemporary holsters, mag pouches and magazines (not reproductions)?

I would not recommend holstering this pistol to preserve remaining finish. If you are talking aftermarket, commercial production accoutrements, I'd ask that question in the appropriate forum on the site. I would be most concerned with preserving the finish of the pistol and the originality of its parts.

...Thanks again for all the info provided thus far! It really paid of big time to finally once more post a thread here in this forum. You are a great bunch of people! THANKS!!!

Thank you for your participation. The site is packed with good information and those who have been around these pistols for years. It's always better to ask first and make informed decisions regarding anything you are considering to use or purchase.