cocked and locked carrying

[emiddio]

i hope my terminology is correct.

i'm discussing carrying 1911 style hammer cocked, holstered, safety on.

usually a round in the chamber.

usually i carry 1911 unchambered round, not cocked/hammer down -- which requires working the slide to ready the gun. or i carry a glock like gun -- ready.

i'm practicing around the house carrying cocked, safety on, unchambered round.

my question -- seems like opportunity for dirt or clothing or some other obstruction to possibly enter the area between hammer and slide -- to potentially make shooting fail.

how do you in practice deal with this possiblilty -- how often is it a problem ?

thanks

[Ric4509]

My opinion is that if you keep your 1911 clean it will not be a problem. I carry a 3" 1911 everyday and so far have not seen any lint or obstruction in the areas you've mentioned. I have bought a couple of 1911s used with heavy lint in the barrel area and in the trigger assembly area.

Just keep your 1911 clean, inspect it regularly, unloaded of course. SAFETY FIRST!!!

[ArmyCop]

My first handgun was a Ruger P94 in .40 caliber. I got my permit about a week before actually getting the gun. Being new to carrying handgun's I started reading several forum’s about them.
I also carried without one in the chamber for a while till I felt properly educated and comfortable about it then started carry with one in chamber and still do.

Recently I got my Colt Defender. Same thing all over again. Not a lot of them around where I live so the "look" of one being actually cocked while carrying was new to me and while not really un-nerving was still something to get used too.
After a while - reading the 1911 forums, shooting at range & general study I felt ok with the cocked and locked mode of carry and that's the way it is every day for me now.

[Harlie]

Cocked and locked carry is a non-issue, as far as being rendered inoperable with normal carry and caution. Inspection of and cleaning on a reasonable regular basis and should be no problem. Personally, inspect twice a day, morning, when reholstering and night, when unholstering for night access at bedside. S&W 1911 Sc, Bladetech kydex IWB. The very limited amount of lint/dry skin that can appear is readily removed. Regular wipe down and light application of oil is required, for prevention of rust.

[horse 91-A1]

Harlie has the idea, my Colt is stainless and with Bianchi IWH there's a strap that goes between hammer and slide; never had any kind of build up and it's checked three times a day - morning, bathroom call and nightstand. At least twice per week I rotate out the cartridge in the champer and feed another one in.

Things will become second nature in time and then you will really be able to appreciate the design. John Browning was the first to design the slide and that design is still in use. :)

Adios,
Bob

[1911Tuner]

I've carried Cocked'n'Locked daily for years in an open-topped holster or butt forward "Mexican" style...as the clothing/temperature/mood suited me. Ling does get in, but doesn't render the gun inoperable. My carry guns used to be rotated every 3 months, and the carried pistol detail-stripped and cleaned.
Here of late, I've been carrying a GI Springfield...upgraded with USGI or aftermarket real steel parts...almost exclusively for over a year.

Remember that the gun was designed to function under adverse condtions of neglect and rough handling. Of course, if the tolerances have been tightened up beyond a reasonable point, that may not apply...and no...the slide doesn't
have to rattle on the frame in order to be reliable.

[warmrain]

At least twice per week I rotate out the cartridge in the champer and feed another one in.
Bob, I know you are aware of this, but I'll point it out for the thread's originator...

When unloading the chambered round and reloading (chambering) a new round - during inspections, oilings or whatever - it is a good idea to take a look at the round(s) near the top of the magazine (the ones that get continually chambered) to be sure that the bullet has not been pressed farther back into the case then originally loaded. Such a round may not feed or may (I have been told) be of higher pressure (though I think a modern firearm will not be effected by the latter)...

Best,

[fwarren94551]

i hope my terminology is correct.

i'm discussing carrying 1911 style hammer cocked, holstered, safety on.

usually a round in the chamber.

usually i carry 1911 unchambered round, not cocked/hammer down -- which requires working the slide to ready the gun. or i carry a glock like gun -- ready.

i'm practicing around the house carrying cocked, safety on, unchambered round.

my question -- seems like opportunity for dirt or clothing or some other obstruction to possibly enter the area between hammer and slide -- to potentially make shooting fail.

how do you in practice deal with this possiblilty -- how often is it a problem ?

thanks

In theory this can happen. Practically speaking I've never even HEARD of such a thing and I've been shooting 1911s since the 60s. The slot between slide and hammer is VERY open. The reality is that keeping something in that slot would be virtually impossible - there's nothing to keep it from dropping out. As an aside I've never had shirt tails or jackets tangle with it, and carried fulltime for over a year in Washington state.

In practice there just isn't a problem. The thing that concerns me about cocked and locked is knocking off the safety and putting one down my buttocks; careless methods of carry HAVE allowed this to happen along with pinned grip safeties. With cocked and locked one needs to be a bit more observant of the 1911 safety than one would be with something like a SIG 220 or a revolver (there inadverdent cocking of the hammer is the "threat" to one's security).

Frank

[horse 91-A1]

Warmrain, I've had that happen in the past with a bullet pushed back. When I'm working up a new loads on a new bullet I will manually cycle a full magazine (2 different .45s) and then do a full caliper check. I only reload jacketed bullets with crimps in the .741/.742 range so I am still head spacing on the rim. 230 JHPs seem to be the most stable with 185s sometime needing more patience with COAL and magazine combos.

I am having excellent results with 230gr Golden Sabers with accuracy and expansion. I've also had great accuracy with 200gr Gold Dots in the past, but haven't subjected them to my target "torture" test. Came across a bag of GS 185s and will string test a few loadings in the morning.

Thank you very much for the heads up; it's well appreciated. :)

Even tho the slide safety is protected by leather, I'm in the habit of checking the safety in the up position and slide fully closed.

Adios,
Bob

[warmrain]

...The thing that concerns me about cocked and locked is knocking off the safety and putting one down my buttocks; careless methods of carry HAVE allowed this to happen along with pinned grip safeties. With cocked and locked one needs to be a bit more observant of the 1911 safety than one would be with something like a SIG 220 or a revolver (there inadverdent cocking of the hammer is the "threat" to one's security).

Frank

Though in practice, this too, is not a problem if the holater covers the trigger and you keep you finger off the trigger until the gun is on target...

[warmrain]

...Even tho the slide safety is protected by leather, I'm in the habit of checking the safety in the up position and slide fully closed.

I haven't reloaded for semi-autos yet, still waiting to prove I can do consistant results with revolver loads. I appreciate your input greatly though.

I do the same thing on re-holstering... Be sure the safety is on and cover the back of the slide with the thumb while re-holstering to be sure the slide stays in battery. Yes, this is redundant with the 1911's safety on, but it is good practice, esp. if you shoot other (e.g. DAO) semi auto pistols. (Even though I own a fixed gear aircraft, I still do the "gear down" check, I might be flying a freind's or rental retractable sometime...

[Sandman1967]

i hope my terminology is correct.

i'm discussing carrying 1911 style hammer cocked, holstered, safety on.

usually a round in the chamber.

usually i carry 1911 unchambered round, not cocked/hammer down -- which requires working the slide to ready the gun. or i carry a glock like gun -- ready.

i'm practicing around the house carrying cocked, safety on, unchambered round.

my question -- seems like opportunity for dirt or clothing or some other obstruction to possibly enter the area between hammer and slide -- to potentially make shooting fail.

how do you in practice deal with this possiblilty -- how often is it a problem ?

thanks

emiddio - I usually carry with a round in the camber/ hammer down. When I feel the state of awareness, triggered by my surroundings, I carry cocked-n-locked!
I have never had any problems with junk getting into my gun. Then again, every night I wipe the gun down and inspect it, at least once a week I field strip, clean and re-lube.
I have also never dicharged the weapon while drawing or holstering it.

[MontanaMike]

emmiddio,

I have used a Mexican carry in the field for many years and just switched to one of Dillon's in-pants holsters because the finish on my new SA GI was wearing in my waist band. I generally carry a round in the chamber with the hammer down if I am where the gun rubs up and down on my body a lot, but otherwise carry locked and cocked.

I have been working a lot in Arizona the past 10 years, doing geologic mapping and related work that requires me to work a lot in thick brush such as Manzanita and pin oak. I find I get a lot of junk on the back of my gun, leaves, bark, twigs and the like, as I usually carry with the grip exposed above my pants, under the padded belly band on a pack. The junk falling onto my gun in the dense brush does not interfer with operation of the gun and, with the exception of dust and dirt, does not seem to get inside the gun. Needless to say, the gun needs frequent cleaning.

I like to keep the gun in a condition where I can fire it with one hand without working the slide. If I am tangled up in the brush, I may need the other hand to maintain my balance by hanging onto the brush. For example, I have shot several rattlesnakes with one hand while using the other hand to hold my body still against the brush that was trying to push me over. Most of the time, I carry locked and cocked for the latter reason. I will lower the hammer if I think it is likely I will fall or slide down a steep slope. Part of the time, I carry a stainless Colt Mark IV that cannot fire accidently if it is dropped. Although I originally did not like the idea that the orginal 1911 design had been modified, and the slide is slowly wearing out above the pin that keeps the gun from firing accidently, it is not a bad idea in some of the situations I work in. In any event, with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked or lowered on the chambered round, either way, you can still operate the gun with one hand.

All in all, I would say that it would be very rare for something to fall into your gun and interfer with its operation when carrying locked and cocked, based on my experience carrying a 1911A1 in thick brush. I hope you are not planning to try to carry your gun through something worse than manzanita! :D

[marinakorp]

I usually carry with a round in the camber/ hammer down.


How is this safely accomplished?

If SLOWLY dropping the hammer on a live round... YIKES!

[Pappy]

How is this safely accomplished?

If SLOWLY dropping the hammer on a live round... YIKES!

I agree. Should your thumb slip and the hammer falls......goodbye thumb!!!!!!!!!! Pappy

[MontanaMike]

Pappy and Marinakorp,

You might want to read my comments in the general discussion forum under the thread on Jeff Cooper's four rules of gun handling.

I was a witness to a guy shooting off part of his left finger while pulling a 1911A1 out of the holster (held in the left hand) and lowering the locked and cocked hammer with the thumb on his right hand. He did not experience any damage to his right thumb from the slide, but the bullet passed through the knuckle on his left index finger, effectively severing the entire finger.

If you must lower the hammer on a chambered round, put a finger on your left hand between the hammer and the slide so the hammer hits your left finger if your right thumb slips (vice versa for you lefties).

Better yet, pull out the magazine and eject the round out of the chamber by pulling back the slide, instead of taking a chance on dropping the hammer on a live round.

Regardless of the debate (by some) about the safety of carrying locked and cocked, the most dangerous moment of locked and cocked is probably when you lower the hammer, if you don't cycle the round out of the chamber or at least block the hammer when you lower it, for those (including me) who occaisionally carry a chambered round with the hammer down.

[res1b3uq]

I know more people who have shot themselves accidently than I know people who have needed the extra second it takes to chamber a round. Therefore, I shall continue to carry my weapon with an empty chamber-safety off-full magazine.

[1911Tuner]

I know more people who have shot themselves accidently than I know people who have needed the extra second it takes to chamber a round. Therefore, I shall continue to carry my weapon with an empty chamber-safety off-full magazine.

Better pray that if your dark moment ever comes, you have the luxury of having both hands free instead of fending off a knife or bludgeon with one and reaching for essentially an empty pistol with the other. These things rarely go down the way we think they will...and it usually comes without
much of a warning.

People who shoot themselves by accident are a puzzle to me. Don't they know that pulling the trigger makes it go bang? :confused: If you don't want it to fire, don't pull the trigger.

Of course, inept people can hurt themselves in a padded room with a rubber knife, given enough time to explore their options.

[Harlie]

res1Buq
Tell you what, any one who knows that many people that have been shot accidently is running with a sack full of dummies. Sounds rather fishy to me.
Lowering a hammer on a 1911 with a round in chamber, no very swift. Empty chamber for carry, falls pretty close as well. ND/AD's don't just happen, they are a product of a human making mistakes, poor training or lack of and mishandling of a dangerous tool.

[res1b3uq]

And we all know, don't we guys, that there are many people in this world who are not as smart as they think they are. If he's that close, I'll use it for a club, or run like hell.

[1911Tuner]

And we all know, don't we guys, that there are many people in this world who are not as smart as they think they are. If he's that close, I'll use it for a club, or run like hell.

Well...I guess people who can't remember to keep their finger off the trigger really shouldn't carry a gun.

[1911Tuner]

1. Yes. it's loaded.

2. Don't point it at anything you don't want shot. That includes parts of your own body. Especially, don't point it at me. If you do, I won't be kind.

3. If you want it to fire, just pull the trigger. If you don't...don't.

4. If you don't know what's behind your target, go back to Rule 2 and study it hard...then move on to Rule number 3.

Tuner's Law:

That pistol is NOT a toy and it AIN'T your friend. It's as dangerous as a Rattlesnake and should be regarded as hostile at all times.

If you are unable to maintain your focus long enough to bear these things in mind...do us all a favor and carry a baseball bat.

[marinakorp]

Pappy and Marinakorp,

You might want to read my comments in the general discussion forum under the thread on Jeff Cooper's four rules of gun handling.

I was a witness to a guy shooting off part of his left finger while pulling a 1911A1 out of the holster (held in the left hand) and lowering the locked and cocked hammer with the thumb on his right hand. He did not experience any damage to his right thumb from the slide, but the bullet passed through the knuckle on his left index finger, effectively severing the entire finger.

If you must lower the hammer on a chambered round, put a finger on your left hand between the hammer and the slide so the hammer hits your left finger if your right thumb slips (vice versa for you lefties).

Better yet, pull out the magazine and eject the round out of the chamber by pulling back the slide, instead of taking a chance on dropping the hammer on a live round.

Regardless of the debate (by some) about the safety of carrying locked and cocked, the most dangerous moment of locked and cocked is probably when you lower the hammer, if you don't cycle the round out of the chamber or at least block the hammer when you lower it, for those (including me) who occaisionally carry a chambered round with the hammer down.


Sorry... IMHO... without a de-cocking mechanism or DAO, there is NO safe way to get a round in the chamber and the Hammer down.

with my kimber... If a round is in the chamber, the weapon is cocked - ALWAYS. Safety is on when holstered, drawn... and removed once target is in aquisition. Finger goes on trigger when aquired... bang

If you are recommending to BLOCK the firining pin, drop the hammer (In any fashion) on a live round... IMHO - this is asking for more trouble than carrying cocked and locked, as there is a greater chance of the gun bgoing BANG when dropping the hammer (as it is intended to do)

again.. these are my opinions

[Pappy]

1. Yes. it's loaded.

2. Don't point it at anything you don't want shot. That includes parts of your own body. Especially, don't point it at me. If you do, I won't be kind.

3. If you want it to fire, just pull the trigger. If you don't...don't.

4. If you don't know what's behind your target, go back to Rule 2 and study it hard...then move on to Rule number 3.

Tuner's Law:

That pistol is NOT a toy and it AIN'T your friend. It's as dangerous as a Rattlesnake and should be regarded as hostile at all times.

If you are unable to maintain your focus long enough to bear these things in mind...do us all a favor and carry a baseball bat.

Y'all have beaten me to the draw so to speak. Pun intended. I was about to post safety and common sense rules myself. Too many shooters lately are not paying attention to these fundamentals. Thank you again 1911Tuner and Marinakorp.....Pappy

[1911Tuner]

Marinakorp,

Sorry. I trust my own thumb and fine motor skills far more than a mechanical device that I've seen fail on three separate occasions...with a loud bang as the result. No injuries due to adherence to the Four Cardinal Rules, unlesss you count acute embarassment. My thumb has never failed me. I use it even when I handle a pistol with a decocking lever.

The 1911 can be operated with one hand...Cocking...Decocking...Racking the slide... (Unless it's been subject to the modifications of a ramped rear sight and/or a full-length guide rod and upswept ducktails and such.)...All of it. Learn how. Takes a little practice.

[MontanaMike]

Sorry... IMHO... without a de-cocking mechanism or DAO, there is NO safe way to get a round in the chamber and the Hammer down.

with my kimber... If a round is in the chamber, the weapon is cocked - ALWAYS. Safety is on when holstered, drawn... and removed once target is in aquisition. Finger goes on trigger when aquired... bang

If you are recommending to BLOCK the firining pin, drop the hammer (In any fashion) on a live round... IMHO - this is asking for more trouble than carrying cocked and locked, as there is a greater chance of the gun bgoing BANG when dropping the hammer (as it is intended to do)

again.. these are my opinions

marinakorp,

I appreciate your comments but have experienced two situations where the safety got moved to the firing position while carrying locked and cocked. These involved external objects hitting the gun and/or a fall in brush. Consequently, I feel more comfortable carrying the gun on half-cock in some circumstances, as a safety measure that still allows me to operate the gun one-handed. I feel the same way about carrying the gun in my vehicle, again where during a vehicle accident, the safety might conceivably be moved to the firing position. Maybe I just worry too much, considering the presence of the grip safety, but I don't like the idea of the safety being off with a locked and cocked gun in my holster or vehicle, therefore, I lower the hammer to half-cock in certain circumstances.

[MontanaMike]

The 1911 can be operated with one hand...Cocking...Decocking...Racking the slide... (Unless it's been subject to the modifications of a ramped rear sight and/or a full-length guide rod and upswept ducktails and such.)...All of it. Learn how. Takes a little practice.

1911Tuner,

I fully agree with your statement above. I also like your comment about treating pistols like a rattlesnake. That is a good philosophy and I have been using that particular phrase for a lot of years when teaching new shooters about pistols.

That philosophy is behind my habit of putting a finger between the hammer and the slide when decocking a 1911 on a loaded chamber. There are certain circumstances where you cannot avoid pointing a pistol at something you don't want to shoot. For example, your house or your car when you are in them. When you decock on a loaded chamber, you must put your finger on the trigger. That inherently violates rule 2 of the Four Cardinal Rules if you are in a house or vehicle.

That is why I have got into the habit of putting my finger on one hand under the hammer while lowering it, not dropping it, with the other hand. Just my own little quirk, but it makes me feel better under those circumstances. I agree it is not necessary and you should be capable of one-handed operation of the 1911, a fact I recommended to emmiddio in my earlier comments. I am still using one hand only to decock, but the finger under the hammer is my extra insurance against an AD if my thumb slips off the hammer.

Overall, I discourage new shooters from developing the habit of lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber unless there is a reason. It is a bad habit to get into. I don't agree with marinakorp that you should never do it, but it is not necessary to do it all the time. I had to break myself of that because I shoot single action revolvers all the time and I have a natural tendency to lower the hammer to half cock. That is not necessary on a 1911 unless you intentionally want to carry it that way. Decocking over a loaded chamber as a habitual practice increases the odds that an accident will occur.

[John]

Consequently, I feel more comfortable carrying the gun on half-cock in some circumstances, as a safety measure that still allows me to operate the gun one-handed.

Carrying the pistol with the hammer in half-cock is one of the most dangerous practices. I am sorry, but I have to STRONGLY disagree with you on this. The half-cock is NOT a safety, and this is NOT a safe way to carry a 1911. It was never designed or meant to be carried that way.

Novices are strongly discouraged from using this carrying method.

[Hawkmoon]

marinakorp,

I appreciate your comments but have experienced two situations where the safety got moved to the firing position while carrying locked and cocked. These involved external objects hitting the gun and/or a fall in brush. Consequently, I feel more comfortable carrying the gun on half-cock in some circumstances, as a safety measure that still allows me to operate the gun one-handed. I feel the same way about carrying the gun in my vehicle, again where during a vehicle accident, the safety might conceivably be moved to the firing position. Maybe I just worry too much, considering the presence of the grip safety, but I don't like the idea of the safety being off with a locked and cocked gun in my holster or vehicle, therefore, I lower the hammer to half-cock in certain circumstances.
The half-cock is not considered a safe mode for carry. That's not why it was put there. It was put there as a safety provision to catch the hammer if it was accidently knocked off full-cock withiout the grip safety being depressed and the trigger being pulled. Once you start carrying in the half-cocked position, you essentially have no more back-up safety devices if it should fall off the half-cock notch.

I doubt I'm going to change your mind, but those who haven't made up their minds should be aware that this is not a good way to carry a 1911. IMHO if your thumb safety is getting knocked off accidently while the gun is in the holster, get it fixed. Maybe go back to a small GI thumb safety if you're using one of those over-sized extended thingies, or get the safety adjusted (or replaced) to cause more positive engagement.

[fwarren94551]

I'm not ALWAYS a fan of cocked and locked. I like it best when I have a hammer strap between the slide and hammer. If the safety comes off or the hammer gets jarred into falling, the strap will prevent a true AD. Many newbies to the 1911 are captured by the siren song of newfangled holsters which do not feature a positive hammer block and I wish them luck.

The DA auto is no safer than cocked and locked in my view. If the gun is being manipulated enough in carry to disengage the thumb safety, it is also being manipulated enough to do the hammer on a DA auto. This happens to cowboys all the time with their SA pistols where a piece of brush will catch the hammer while working cattle; men have taken a bullet down the leg as a result and if one does it long enough from horseback, it seems to happen sooner or later.

What does this tell us? You have to pay some attention to your gun to carry it with anything resembling safety. Being foolish and/or unaware is painful with a gun on you sooner or later. So be a bit careful! If you're packing a loaded gun, there's just no way it is "safe." Unloaded guns are useless, and loaded guns are always dangerous.

A little care by the user goes a long way to minimizing risk.

Frank

[garrettwc]

Here of late, I've been carrying a GI Springfield...upgraded with USGI or aftermarket real steel parts...almost exclusively for over a year.
Tuner, is that the one you used and abused for the THR Clinic threads? How's it holding up.

I'm squarely in the majority here. The gun was designed for cocked and locked and is perfectly safe in that manner. Someone mentioned Glocks or similar, that's cocked and unlocked. I don't see the logic in that being somehow safer.

The main thing is the 4 rules. If you follow them religously, nothing short of a breakage in the gun will cause an unexpected bang and that applies no matter what you are carrying.

[Harlie]

Safety is essential, but too many times we have convinced ourselves that we have safe ways of doing various things. With a 1911, being on half cock and carrying isn't safe, nor is lowering a hammer on a 1911 with a round in chamber, regardless of how cautious we think we are. 1911's have been carried safely by multitudes of persons, world wide for decades without the numbers of AD/ND that have been suffered by Glock carriers of very recent times. When you hear of person shooting him/herself in the leg holstering, it's got to be a Glock. Once we learn, adhere to and handle our firearms as intended, it's really amazing how few accidents there really are. Any safety brushed off in a holster, could just as easily be brushed to full cock. Have never removed a 1911 from holster and had the safety off, of course I also don't us a ambi. Carry daily and have no undue concerns about AD while in holster or reholstering. Maybe you need a better holster, one that covers trigger.

[emiddio]

my 1st post to this thread since i started it -- didnt realize it would generate so much interest.

since i never practiced 1 handed cocking of the hammer -- i always figured it would be just as quick to cycle the slide to cock the gun -- and that would chamber a round also -- so i didnt have to debate the issues with lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber.

also -- i like the regular GM GI spur hammer better than the 'commander' hammer -- so i've sold/retired my GI sized 1911 that dont have spur hammers. -- but i would consider a spur hammer much safer to lower than the 'commander' hammer.

also -- the newer guns i've looked at in comparison to my Colt's -- seem to have a much higher hammer spring tension -- much higher. i can easially lower the hammer on my non-spur hammer Colts ( gun is empty ) but found it more difficult -- even dangerous to try and do it with SW 1911's - i have 4 at the moment (inventory) - or the new SA model PX9109L full size all steel with the ILS.

i'm going to carry either cocked n locked or empty chamber hammer down-- dont feel the need currently for loaded chamber hammer down.

they say keep your eyes open -- be aware of your surroudings -- my current approach is to do just that and when my internal 'color code' goes up a notch -- will transition from empty chamber to cocked n locked.

i would feel safe however lowering a spur hammer onto a loaded chamber -- but not really with the 'commander' style non-spur hammer.

the SArmory gun would have the Single Action problem noted in a prior point if the hammer got lifted and droped and half cock didnt stop the hammer -- but SW and Colt's with the series 80 firing pin block would prevent that problem -- maybe more the Colts -- since holstered the trigger cant be pulled -- but the Smiths -- use the grip safety to control the firing pin block.

[1911Tuner]

Tuner, is that the one you used and abused for the THR Clinic threads? How's it holding up.
.

Yep. The same one, and doin' fine. Since the torture test and small parts upgrade, the gun hasn't missed a beat, and when I upgraded to a Kart barrel a while back, my ego got thoroughly trounced. The gun is so much more accurate than I am, it's a little embarassin' to hand it to a really good shooter. :o

On the safety strap for a Condition One 1911...Use it if it makes ya feel better, but it's not necessary as long as the hammer has true, captive half-cock. It will stop short even with .125 inch of the sear tip ground off...and I'm willin' and ready to demonstrate it to anyone who is willin' to make the trip to my humble digs. ;)

The newfangled quarter-cock shelf will stop it too, but it lets the hammer get too close to the firing pin for me to bet on it if the tip of the sear breaks.

I occasionally use a strapped holster...for retention...but not as a "safety" device. I also occasionally use a full flap military holster...Hammer down on a hot chamber. Yes...It's an inherently unsafe move to make. No...I've never had a surprise bang as a result in over 40 years. I cock and decock one-handed. Apologies to all whom that tidbit causes to have nightmares, but it
was the most common way to carry the gun for about 60 years. The gun was designed to be manipulated/operated with one hand. Be slow...Be careful...Be focused, and you won't have a problem. Get in a rush...Get careless...Think about your last fling on the beach, and you just might.

Hot chamber and half-cocked is probably the most dangerous way to carry, and is not advised under ANY circumstances.

Lastly....It's NOT safe. It's a GUN!

[MontanaMike]

The half-cock is not considered a safe mode for carry. That's not why it was put there. It was put there as a safety provision to catch the hammer if it was accidently knocked off full-cock withiout the grip safety being depressed and the trigger being pulled. Once you start carrying in the half-cocked position, you essentially have no more back-up safety devices if it should fall off the half-cock notch.

I doubt I'm going to change your mind, but those who haven't made up their minds should be aware that this is not a good way to carry a 1911. IMHO if your thumb safety is getting knocked off accidently while the gun is in the holster, get it fixed. Maybe go back to a small GI thumb safety if you're using one of those over-sized extended thingies, or get the safety adjusted (or replaced) to cause more positive engagement.

Hawkmoon,

I'm not particularly worried about changing my mind. I joined this forum to learn things about the 1911 from people who know more about it than me. If I put my two-bits in and they are wrong, I expect to hear about it. I am not a gunsmith or technical expert, but among the many guns I own and shoot, I have favored the 1911 for a long time and want to know more about it. I expect to find out more about it through these forum threads.

I can't remember when or why I first started using the half cock position when I thought there was a chance of a fall. I have some ideas where I learned this, but they are not worth mentioning, if it is not a defensible practice.

I gather from the comments made by the senior members of this forum that using the half cock position bypasses the grip safety and thus disables one main line of defense against an accidental discharge. I also know from my own experience that a gun with a bad step on the sear may not hold half cock. In considering these factors, the use of half cock appears to be illogical and not nearly as safe as cocked and locked. Is the latter conclusion correct? Is there more to this that I have not recognized?

I would welcome some expanded comments on this half cock business from you, John, or other more experienced members of the forum. It may keep me and other less knowledgable member from going off half-cocked (no pun intended)

[DSgt31]

Condition Zero- round in chamber, weapon cocked, safety off
Condition One- round in chamber, weapon cocked, safety on
Condition Two- round in chamber, weapon uncocked
Condition Three- no round in chamber, weapon uncocked

These conditions presume a magazine in the weapon. The 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition One. Live with it so. The main advantage to deploying the 1911 with speed and accuracy depend on the weapon being in Condition One when being carried. If you worry about dirt, fuzz, etc., get over it. If you are somewhat uncomfortable with Condition One carry, get a holster with a thumbsnap/strap which rides between the hammer and slide for extra protection against accidental discharge. Most importantly, get familiar with the weapon in Condition One status. Unless you have a POS weapon or are a blithering idiot (which I do not believe that you are) the 1911 will behave with the social graces of a virginal maiden. It WILL NOT go off on its own, and if constructed properly, is as safe as any other tool.

DSgt31 :cool:

In the immortal words of Socrates who said "I drank what???"

[Pointblank]

It's amazing how many people who are freaked out when they see a cocked and locked 1911 in an IWB holster think nothing of carrying a Glock that way. I know Glock claims 3 safeties, but the only one I see is the one in the middle of the trigger!:eek:

[1911Tuner]

The 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition One.
DSgt31

OOH! OOH! I beg to differ...somewhat.

The pistol was designed to allow it to be placed into Con-One if action was iminent...but the notion of continuous carry in that mode is a fairly recent one. That said, I've had personal knowledge of a 1911 that was stored fully loaded in Condition One for 62 years...and it functioned perfectly when fired with the magazine and ammo that was in it.

[warmrain]

It's amazing how many people who are freaked out when they see a cocked and locked 1911 in an IWB holster think nothing of carrying a Glock that way. I know Glock claims 3 safeties, but the only one I see is the one in the middle of the trigger!:eek:
Yes, you have to think (or imagine) back quite a ways...
But the trigger guard is probably one of the first "safeties", I wonder how many manufactureres/designers/spec. writers still count it. I know that in my Colt Series 80 1911 manual it was listed...

[1911Tuner]

It's amazing how many people who are freaked out when they see a cocked and locked 1911 in an IWB holster think nothing of carrying a Glock that way. I know Glock claims 3 safeties, but the only one I see is the one in the middle of the trigger!:eek:

Yep...and to take warmrain's analogy a step further...Many of these same folks don't give a second thought to a bolt-action hunting rifle or shotgun carried afield in Con One...through the brush...without the benefit of a covered trigger guard OR a half-cock. It's largely because they can see the hammer on the pistol. Gives'em the heebie-jeebies. :p

[emiddio]

what are the glock 3 safeties ?

trigger is 1,

FP block is another,

3rd ?

also -- when a cocked glock has its trigger pulled -- the striker is pulled farther back for additional spring energy before its released.

anybody know if the striker was simple released without any additional cocking -- if there's enough spring energy to make it go bang ?

[horse 91-A1]

The bottom line on my Glock is: pull the trigger and it goes bang.

I've carried my Colt M1991 C&L in a Smart Carry, you'll never catch me carrying a Glock that way. :nono:

Adios,
Bob

[Chessbum]

Just want to jump in and thank you guys for maybe the best advice I have heard on any site. I carry a .38 S&W Bodyguard I have owned for twenty years and hunt deer with a .44mag Super Blackhawk. Several years ago I owned a .45 Colt Lightweight Comander and got rid of it. Always regretted it after it left and several months ago I broke down and bought a 1911 Kimber full size Custom II I have fallen in love with ( I know it ain't my friend) but it is an awsome shooter. Reading all these post here has made me aware of all the mistakes I made in the past with my Comander. Anyway thanks for all this advice as you may have saved me a right thumb from being broke or worse and your never to old to learn something new. JohnV.

[Hawkmoon]

... It WILL NOT go off on its own, ...
It won't?

You mean those Brady folks haven't been telling me the truth? They keep tellin' me that "guns kill people." Isn't that why we keep them locked up in safes ... so they won't go on a rampage and murder us while we sleep?

[warmrain]

what are the glock 3 safeties ?

trigger is 1,

FP block is another,

3rd ?

The "Safe Action" system consists of three (3) automatic independently operating mechanical safeties which are sequentially disengaged when pulling the trigger and which are automatically re-engaged when releasing the trigger.

http://www.glock.com/_safe_action_.htm

[Pappy]

It won't?

You mean those Brady folks haven't been telling me the truth? They keep tellin' me that "guns kill people." Isn't that why we keep them locked up in safes ... so they won't go on a rampage and murder us while we sleep?

On that note a test should be undertaken. I suggest putting a surveillance camera on a few guns, place them on a table and see if they move about when we're not watching.
Perhaps a new forum to discuss "nanny/gun cams"?...Pappy

[1911Tuner]

Pappy...I dunno if they move around, but if ya put'em in a safe and leave'em alone for a week or two, they'll multiply. Anyway...That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :D (Even though none of my ex-wives bought it.) :D :D

[John]

(Even though none of my ex-wives bought it.)

I have to assume that they weren't open-minded enough to understand.

[1911Tuner]

I have to assume that they weren't open-minded enough to understand.

You're assumin' that the ladies even HAD a mind...after livin' with ME! :D

When #3 asked why I "needed" more than one gun...I knew it was all over with. ;)

[Hawkmoon]

You're assumin' that the ladies even HAD a mind...after livin' with ME! :D

When #3 asked why I "needed" more than one gun...I knew it was all over with. ;)
Did you ask her why she "needed" more than one pair of earrings?

[1911Tuner]

Did you ask her why she "needed" more than one pair of earrings?

nah...But the day she left, I sang "Thank God and Greyhound You're Gone"... :D :D :D

[John]

Did you ask her why she "needed" more than one pair of earrings?

True. How come women can buy things in pairs and we cannot???

[dartman]

I know why! I almost come in pair-my wife really wants to slice me in half when i bought "pair" of mags today, and I said to her i don't only bought pairs but also a "couple" (hoping she will put me in one piece) of rounds and she said "Let me pulverized you!" LOL :)

How come they always know?

Maybe she's a member of a bureau.

[Hawkmoon]

Maybe she's a member of a bureau.
You mean like the old Russian politburu?

[John]

You mean like the old Russian politburu?

Got you! Political discussions, you are banned!! LoL

[r_u_stuck2]

Did you ask her why she "needed" more than one pair of earrings?


I think I should have as many guns as she has shoes. Have you ever checked to see the ration of hers/his shoes?

[Hawkmoon]

:dead_hors

Right, Lads. We've had our fun at Tuner's expense. Now, let's try to get back on topic. Does anyone have any additional words of wisdom about modes of carry for the 1911?

[dartman]

Originally Posted by: John

Got you! Political discussions, you are banned!! LoL


Lol!!!!!:)

[marinakorp]

:dead_hors

Right, Lads. We've had our fun at Tuner's expense. Now, let's try to get back on topic. Does anyone have any additional words of wisdom about modes of carry for the 1911?


Several ways for you to carry your weapon. Only you can make the decision as to what works for you and the acceptable risks associated in carrying in that fashion.

All discussions assume weapon is in full working order, etc... in no particular order

1 - loaded mag, none in chamber, de-cocked. Highest degree of safety, slowest to get round off in a situation
2 - loaded mag, round in chamber, de-cocked (regardless of method). Lower degree of safety than 1. faster to get round off in a situation
3 - loaded mag, round in chamber, safety on. Lower degree of safety than 1. Faster to get round off in a situation than either 1 or 2

Various methods for dropping a hammer on a round with the intion to NOT fire the weapon (for carrying with hammer down on a round) have been discussed on this forum, and debated as to the safety of using this method.

It is my personal choice to carry C&L, as it meets my requirements for risk tolerance and weapons readiness in a situation. I keep all of my weapons in working order, test safeties regularly, and am comfortable with my decision.

[bearandoldman]

1 - loaded mag, none in chamber, de-cocked. Highest degree of safety, slowest to get round off in a situation

Various methods for dropping a hammer on a round with the intion to NOT fire the weapon (for carrying with hammer down on a round) have been discussed on this forum, and debated as to the safety of using this method.

It is my personal choice to carry C&L, as it meets my requirements for risk tolerance and weapons readiness in a situation. I keep all of my weapons in working order, test safeties regularly, and am comfortable with my decision.[/QUOTE]
I agree on your statement to the max. Letting the hammer down on a round or coking a decocked gun can lead to an accidnetal discharge and cause damage by an errant round an also to yiour hand from the slide.
In my opinion, condition 1 is as gooda s carrying a rock in your pocket except the rock is a lot less costly but just as useful as an empty gun. Friends have seen my pistol and said it cocked and I told them yes, you carry a spare tire in your car ready to yuse don't you. Never can tell when you will need eiather but might just as well be ready to use, not unloaded or with no air in it.

[Hawkmoon]

All discussions assume weapon is in full working order, etc... in no particular order

1 - loaded mag, none in chamber, de-cocked. Highest degree of safety, slowest to get round off in a situation
2 - loaded mag, round in chamber, de-cocked (regardless of method). Lower degree of safety than 1. faster to get round off in a situation
3 - loaded mag, round in chamber, safety on. Lower degree of safety than 1. Faster to get round off in a situation than either 1 or 2
Although you say these are listed in no particular order, you convey the impression that numbers 2 and 3 are equal in safety. They are not, especially if the pistol does not have a firing pin safety (as in Colt Series 80 or Kimber/Schwartz mechanisms). It can also be argued that in an emergency, it might be faster to perform an Israeli draw with an empty chamber than to attempt thumb cocking an uncocked pistol with a round already in the chamber. When adrenelin starts pumping, fine motor skills are adversely affected. In addition, perspiration may make your hand damp, impairing the ability to cock the hammer.

I see nothing to recommend carrying a loaded 1911 with the hammer down on a live round.

Various methods for dropping a hammer on a round with the intion to NOT fire the weapon (for carrying with hammer down on a round) have been discussed on this forum, and debated as to the safety of using this method.
And I believe the overwhelming consensus has been that this is extremely unsafe.

[1911Tuner]

A quote from Clawson's third edition, page 7...on the safety lock.
*******************

>In mid-1913, as a result of some officers carrying the pistol cocked and locked with the safety on, it was reported that the safety lock could be accidentally released when withdrawing the pistol from the holster. An addenda to Ordnance manual N. 1866 emphasized not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the manual safety on..."except in an emergency..." Firstly..."This was not the intended purpose of the safety lock."<

There's more, if any of the readers have the book. I'd be inclined to assume that Charles Clawson is one of the preeminent historians of the M-1911 and M-1911A1 pistol, and his credentials are pretty well accepted. Very likely to have seen documents that few of us are privy to.

The idea that the pistol was designed and/or intended to be carried full-time in Condition One simply isn't true. It was designed to ALLOW it to be safely placed in that mode when action was iminent...but not as a full-time carry option. That it can be is a plus...but that wasn't the original intent by the longest stretch.

[horse 91-A1]

When adrenelin starts pumping, fine motor skills are adversely affected.

I can't speak for others, but every time I've been in a lethal situation everything goes into slow motion and I can think very clearly. It takes awhile to get down from the rush; sometimes a couple of days as a lot of chemicals have been put into your blood system. I don't know where the notion of fine motor skills being adversely affected comes from; but I haven't seen it. :)

Adios,
Bob

[Hawkmoon]

The idea that the pistol was designed and/or intended to be carried full-time in Condition One simply isn't true. It was designed to ALLOW it to be safely placed in that mode when action was iminent...but not as a full-time carry option. That it can be is a plus...but that wasn't the original intent by the longest stretch.
Well, it is true, and it isn't.

I believe what Clawson wrote is correct -- as far as the original design goes, which was for a military sidearm. Soldiers didn't walk around Fort George, Maryland, wearing a 1911 in a flapped holster expecting to be accosted by persons unknown and have a need to defend themselves with said pistol. So for the original intent -- true.

The situation is different today, for "civilian" CCW or for LEO duty (or off-duty) carry. We can't predict when something will go down, thus it can be argued that action is imminent 24/7 and therefore full-time carry in the cocked-and-locked mode is justified under the original design parameters.

[1911Tuner]

Agreed Hawk...but in 1910, the pistol wasn't targeted at the civilian or police
market. ;) Most veteran cops wouldn't carry an autopistol. Didn't trust'em.

[marinakorp]

:dead_hors

In your previous post to the group, you posted the above graphic.

In an attempt to provide information that did not beat the horse again, I posted several things for the poster to consider. Since there was a poster that thought dropping a hammer on a live chamber (and several other supporters) I opted to not discuss thoses issues as previously been beaten.

I chose, however, to post the most common carry methods. they have been discussed many times in this thread and on this forum. I made no indication as to the degree of safety, other than that is is LESS safe than NOT carrying a round in the chamber. other postings have indicated that dropping a round on the live round is un-safe. other posters have indicated that carrying cocked and locked is unsafe.

I did this to let the poster choose their own method after reading all of the information available... and not just from a single, potentially biased source (me).

[Hawkmoon]

Agreed Hawk...but in 1910, the pistol wasn't targeted at the civilian or police
market. ;) Most veteran cops wouldn't carry an autopistol. Didn't trust'em.
Agreed -- that's why I differentiated between the original design parameters (or "mission statement") and the situation today. As Bob Dylan wrote of so many years ago, "The times they are a' changin' "

[emiddio]

Agreed -- that's why I differentiated between the original design parameters (or "mission statement") and the situation today. As Bob Dylan wrote of so many years ago, "The times they are a' changin' "


so the "original" design parameters were not for full time carry in "cocked n locked" mode -- only part-time.

does that mean Browning considered his "design" sufficient and acceptable for full time "cocked n locked" -- or are we speculating ?

since those who do carry full time "cocked n locked" consider it to be within his design parameters.

or maybe Browning would have elected for "additions" -- such as Colt's series 80 firing pin block ? -- for full-time C&L use ?

[1911Tuner]

I agree, Hawk...and also see marinakorp's points. Bottom line...no matter if the hammer's cocked or down...If the chamber is hot, it CAN'T be carried
safely.

Why? C'mon gang! Let's hear it! :p

[bearandoldman]

I agree, Hawk...and also see marinakorp's points. Bottom line...no matter if the hammer's cocked or down...If the chamber is hot, it CAN'T be carried
safely.

Why? C'mon gang! Let's hear it! :p

I have no problem, guess I am jsut an unsafe person, Must be all them years I rode the crotch rockets has had an effect on my brain,

Tuner give them dogs a cookie Woooooooofie says the Bear.

[Bob1987]

I'm jumping in at the end it seems. Just recently while training in S. Carolina, a discussion came up about lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. I've always carried cocked & locked but wondered about lowering the hammer at night, reason being, though I've always awoke fairly clear, it may not always be the case, having to pull the hammer back is just more time to focus. Currently I clear the chamber and at times keep it in simplex lock box. The topic came up during training, the instructor said at night he will lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. What I found interesting also was, I have several Para's. 1 of them, on the 1/2 cock, will not drop the hammer when the trigger is pulled. I believe that is an older version of the 1911. The other Para's, when the trigger is pulled at 1/2 cock, will let the hammer fall. Anyway... this has been an interesting discussion. I enjoy everyones opinions, I think I will continue to carry cocked and locked as I believe this to be the only way to respond to an attack quickly, which to me is also safely. Nightime, I'll still unchamber, though while unloaded I do drop the hammer just to see... My Chihuahua won't take down anyone, but growls and everything that moves and I wake up easily. I hope I haven't bored anyone.
Thanks Bob

[Woodman]

I agree, Hawk...and also see marinakorp's points. Bottom line...no matter if the hammer's cocked or down...If the chamber is hot, it CAN'T be carried
safely.

Why? C'mon gang! Let's hear it! :p
Doesn't it all hinge on what you consider "safe"?

For example, in my hands, I consider my gun safe, no matter what condition it is currently in because I only point it at something I intend to shoot. When handing my gun off to someone else, I drop the magazine and open the chamber to show there is no bullet, and hand the gun over open. Then I monitor the person handling my gun so that they do not point it somewhere it shouldn't be pointed.

What I consider "safe" in my hands I would not consider safe in someone else's hands however, because I ultimately have no control over what they do. I do know that when I feel the need to carry my 1911, it is carried with one in the chamber, 7 in the magazine, cocked and locked. I believe if I feel the need to carry my gun in a defensive purpose, then it is obvious it needs to be ready for action ASAP.

[bearandoldman]

Doesn't it all hinge on what you consider "safe"?

For example, in my hands, I consider my gun safe, no matter what condition it is currently in because I only point it at something I intend to shoot. When handing my gun off to someone else, I drop the magazine and open the chamber to show there is no bullet, and hand the gun over open. Then I monitor the person handling my gun so that they do not point it somewhere it shouldn't be pointed.

What I consider "safe" in my hands I would not consider safe in someone else's hands however, because I ultimately have no control over what they do. I do know that when I feel the need to carry my 1911, it is carried with one in the chamber, 7 in the magazine, cocked and locked. I believe if I feel the need to carry my gun in a defensive purpose, then it is obvious it needs to be ready for action ASAP.

My sentiments exactly. A lot of people would not be safe with an empty gun.

[1911Tuner]

Woodman...Inside joke.

Re: It AIN'T safe! It's a GUN, fer cryin' out loud! :p

[bearandoldman]

Woodman...Inside joke.

Re: It AIN'T safe! It's a GUN, fer cryin' out loud! :p

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Give them dogs a cooke, Bear said you should do it. :geek:

[Woodman]

Woodman...Inside joke.

Re: It AIN'T safe! It's a GUN, fer cryin' out loud! :p
:D

I thought you might be kiddin Tuner.

[grm]

Regular maintanance over the years and I have had no problem.

[Tom in Ohio]

IMHO the whole point to having a 1911 (or any SA auto) is to carry it cocked and locked. In all reality it is the safest, fastest, and - on the most important first shot - the most accurate system there is.

A note on the "Israeli Method" of carry - Condition 3. The Israelis only adopted this method because their military, the IDF, was armed with Browning High Powers. They considered the stock thumb safety on the HP to be so inadequate that they were actually faster racking the slide on the draw then fumbling with the safety. This does not translate to the 1911 and I certainly do not want to rely on a technique that demands both my hands.

[Mick_In_Texas]

My comment is related to this thread, so, chose to respond here, rather than start a new thread in re: the 1911/1911A1 being one of the last, if not the only, single-action pistol around...

Some of my friends are uncomfortable with the necessity of a 1911/A1 having to be cocked to be locked. Begging to disagree with them... it's a meat gun, by design, that is, a pure, defensive weapon. If it ain't loaded, it won't fire; if the safety is on, loaded and locked, it won't fire; but, if a person needs it, safety kicked off, it is ready to do the job, if that is required. No frills, no hesitations.

John's main site, has a link to some quotes on the .45 by various individuals, two of whom were Texas Rangers. One of them dealt with a question on the locked and loaded/cocked carry, by a citizen/reporter: question was, "Isn't that dangerous?" Answer was, "If it wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't carry the *** of a *****."

While as a Texas concealed carry individual, and an individual who has had to draw down on perpetrators three times in my life, I NEVER want to fire a shot at someone... I have to say, that any firearm is dangerous, in a roundabout way. It is the responsibility of the user, to maintain it and use it in a safe way, until needed. I have no problem with John M. Browing's beautiful weapon being a single-action, or with it having thus to require being cocked to be locked. A 1911, as any firearm, or a lot of other "things", requires its user to KNOW how to handle and use it. But, this goes for a lot of things: cars/vehicles, power tools, chainsaws, shop tools, bows, golf balls and clubs, lots of things. I think those of us here, who love the 1911 and the 1911A1 variant/modification, realize and understand this; it is a working piece of machinery, and it works very, very, very well. It is the user's responsibility to know how to use the piece. Just like my forklift operator's certification: my agency expects me to know how to use it, to operate it. And that... is MY responsibility.
Nuff said. Y'all all take care and be safe. I LOVE my single-action, loaded and locked, Springer 1911A1/s!!!
Mick

[dartman]

Yap I agree. Nothing is more dangerous than mishandling. Even when drinking coffee one might get blind. (if you forgot that there is still a teaspoon on it :))
Too me at first it looks dangerous. But i familiarize myself to it. To prove it to myself i used my dryfiring round, loaded in my guns chamber. I place a cut bondpaper between the breechface and the primer part of the dummy bullet. So if anything happens in between cocked and locked period or something that is unwanted accident, like when it fall or something. I may say that a discharge may happen if the paper gets a hole on it by the firing pin. I have tried it for a month and the result is good. I find no hole on the paper. Therefore no accidental discharge!

So for beginners i suggest try it and prove it to yourself - 1911 is the best!

[Frank]

It sure seems that a mechanically sound 1911 can be carried in condition 1 (chamber loaded, cocked and safety engaged) safely in a responsible manner. I've trained at Gunsite and on other hot ranges where everyone wearing a 1911 carried in it that way. Whenever I have been able to carry in public legally, I have carried a 1911 and carried it cocked and locked. I have been with, talked with and trained with others who have habitually carried a 1911 in that manner. And indeed those with whom I've trained who routinely go about in public armed with a 1911 would not consider carrying a 1911 in any other way. I've not heard of mishaps arising from that mode of carry.

The 1911 is at heart a fighting gun. While it may have many recreational uses, when carrier about in the course of one's normal business, it is carried as a tool for fighting if necessary. As such it is appropriate to carry it in the manner in which it can most efficiently serve that role. And that manner is condition 1, if for no other reason than that is the only method of carry from which the 1911 can quickly, effectively, efficiently and safely be deployed with only one hand.

While we all learn to shoot and manipulate our pistols with two hands, and we will prefer to use two hands when possible, one great strength of a handgun as a fighting tool is that it can be used effectively with one hand. And when the shoe drops circumstances may require that one's weapon be deployed quickly with one hand. Perhaps the other is needed to ward off an attack, to displace an obstacle or to assist someone to safety; or perhaps you're carrying your groceries at the time.

Cocking a 1911 with one hand on the draw stroke is not a particularly quick, graceful or efficient action, unless perhaps one has particularly large hands. It certainly isn't as smooth a matter as, for example, cocking a Colt Single Action Army revolver. And while there may be ways to rack a slide with only one hand available, they are far from quick, graceful or sure; and they are indeed techniques intended to be used only in special circumstances.

There are other weapons that can be carried in ways that might appear safer than cocked and locked yet still be effectively and swiftly deployed if necessary -- a double action revolver for example. But IMHO the way to carry a 1911 is condition 1.

DVC

[Mick_In_Texas]

Frank--

Agreed, especially for those of us who are trained in proper handling in a stressful situation. In another forum, I've dealt with this. It is true, that the absolute safest carry method--no other considerations--is hammer down, unloaded chamber.

That said, the 1911 cocked and locked--as long as an individual is trained and it is instinct to draw with finger on trigger GUARD, not trigger... having to unlock and move finger to trigger is fastest. Out of three armed encounters, in the one, my Beretta 92F was loaded, cocked, and the safety OFF... but, finger on trigger guard: this was due to the in-the-face relationship with me and the potential perpetrator. NO accidental discharge, NO intentional discharge (use of deadly force); and NO committing of a crime against me or my (at the time) wife. Training is the KEY, as well as the nature of one's action--SA (1911) or DA (P90; Taurus PT92AF) or revolver (GP100).

But, if individuals prefer the "old real safe" carry, and learn how to rack and draw at the same time... maybe that is best for them. On the other hand, if carried hammer down/empty chamber, when they snap safety off and rack one, they've got a cocked, loaded firearm with the safety off in that state. Something to definitely consider, in re: a situation and use of deadly force. That is where HANDLING becomes critical: that situation, they end up in a less safe condition than those of us who carry Condition one, and don't immediately snap the safety off on draw and coming onto target.

Just two cents's worth. Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick

[bmcnabb]

You must remember that the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked. I used to carry a Browning Hi-Power cocked and locked all the time. When I first started I just carried it around the house in the holster (www.wildbillsconcealment.com) to get used to the feel of having a pistol with the hammer cocked.

Brad

[Tom]

Personally, I feel more comfortable with my 1911 in a "cocked-n-locked" Condition 1 state, knowing that all I need to do is thumb down the safety. Like Mick said, if the gun is in Condition 3 status - empty chamber, not cocked - you have to work the slide to chamber the first round and now you've got a "cocked-n-NOT LOCKED" pistol in your hand. Now the only thing separating you from a discharge is your finger. Now who is to say what the situation might be when you have to draw your gun. In the heat of the moment, might a convulsive squeeze at the wrong moment cause the gun to fire? At least with the thumb safety on you've stiff got a mechanical barrier in place. And the removal of that barrier is a simple thumb down movement that doesn't take away from target acquisition.

Besides, Condition 1 carry gives you one extra round to play with! :)

[Frank]

It's been said, by me and others, but I think it's worth repeating. Consider that you may have to be able to quickly put your side arm into play in an emergency with one hand. Sure, you can put a 1911 into action quickly from condition 3 by racking the slide on the draw stroke, but that assumes that you'll have your weak hand free at the time. (Sure you can rack a slide with one hand. That's why I won't carry a 1911 with a FLGR. But it could be too slow. Even cocking a 1911 in condition 2, if you're practiced enough to do so reliably with one hand, could be too slow.)

When you really need roscoe right now, your weak hand may be otherwise engaged. You may need your weak hand for some important chore -- like pushing an oblivious buddy or bystander out of the line of fire, or helping someone who has been injured, or tossing something at the BG to distract him, or warding off an attack (Anyone see the movie Collateral?).

These sorts of things can happen. It's worthwhile to prepare mentally and to train for such possibilities. If you draw a 1911 in condition 3, and your weak hand isn't available, you are holding a club (a small one at that).

I have no quarrel with anyone who isn't comfortable carrying a 1911 (or BHP) cocked and locked. I'm suggesting that in that case a 1911 may not be the best choice. But at the end of the day, each of us get to choose whether to carry, what to carry and how. Like Elmer Keith said, "Every man gets to scratch his fleas his own way."

But IMHO it would be a fine idea before deciding to carry a 1911 other than in condition 1 to think long and hard about what you're going to do if in an emergency, when fractions of a second can count, you can't use both hands to make the weapon ready.

DVC

[Alaskan00]

My "me too" story. . . :dead_hors

About this time last year, I was just starting CCW and hadn't decided on exactly what firearm to carry and in what condition. I was trying different pistols/revolvers in different conditions. I was in Wal-Mart carrying my (then) 2 1/2 yr old in my arm. Some dude started freaking out about something in a really abnormal type of way. I turned and started walking away as store employees and a security guard were approaching him.

As I was leaving I just started assessing the situation and thinking about a response if another situation like that came up where I didn't have the ability to walk away. It was then that I realized I had a useless hunk a metal on my hip b/c I was with a 92 F/S in Condition 3 and I had no free hand. I was trying Condition 3 and thought about it before-hand but had figured that I could drop whatever was tying up my free hand if needed. Unlike a bag of groceries or a set of keys or something, I couldn't just drop her to free up that hand -- espically if she sensed something and was holding on!

That is the last time I was in anything but Condition 1.

[Hawkmoon]

Personally, I feel more comfortable with my 1911 in a "cocked-n-locked" Condition 1 state, knowing that all I need to do is thumb down the safety. Like Mick said, if the gun is in Condition 3 status - empty chamber, not cocked - you have to work the slide to chamber the first round and now you've got a "cocked-n-NOT LOCKED" pistol in your hand. Now the only thing separating you from a discharge is your finger. Now who is to say what the situation might be when you have to draw your gun. In the heat of the moment, might a convulsive squeeze at the wrong moment cause the gun to fire? At least with the thumb safety on you've stiff got a mechanical barrier in place. And the removal of that barrier is a simple thumb down movement that doesn't take away from target acquisition.

Besides, Condition 1 carry gives you one extra round to play with! :)
Gotta disagree with you here, Tom. You can do an "Israeli draw" with your finger alongside the frame rather than stuck inside the trigger guard. The rule about keeping your finger off the trigger until you are aligned on target and ready to fire doesn't get suspended for folks who carry in condition 3.

When you're at the range, do you have your finger on the trigger when you load up and rack the slide?

[Tom]

When you're at the range, do you have your finger on the trigger when you load up and rack the slide?
No, I don't. And I hope no one else does, too! The point I was trying to make - and I probably didn't make it was well as I could have - was that in going from Condition 3 to a "ready fire" state, you have a gun now without any mechanical safeties engaged, whereas in a Condition 1 state, the gun already has the thumb safety "ON". Statically, isn't the Condition 1 gun now "safer" than the recently activated Condition 3 weapon?

In the end it will come down to what you feel most comfortable with - Condition 3, Cocked-n-Locked, etc. - and how well you train to go from your carry condition to a "ready" one. I think on that, we will all agree. :D

If not, it is wireless laptops at 10 paces! LOL

[jridg]

I cannot honestly say I would ever carry in condition 3. That extra second or two could very well mean the difference between walking away and not. Not only that, but the one-handed operation advantage is huge as well. If you carry, there is a reason, that reason is to deal with an unimaginably horrifying situation that you never, ever want to be in. On the off chance that you do find yourself in that situation, you want to be able to protect and defend, not only yourself, but those around you from harm. In order to do that properly, you need to carry in Condition 1.

Safety must always be in your mind and training helps to ensure you are going to react as well as you can. Familiarity with your weapon of choice is critical and knowing how to safely handle and carry this thing we have on our hip or in our pouch or iwb, whatever is more than critical.

Not knowing how it all works and will function is like a non-pilot trying to fly an airplane. They may know the very basics as to how this contraption is supposed to work, but they have no practice. Why would we let them fly it? Well, we don't. It is incumbent upon all of us as responsible owners and operators of these tools to ensure that we are trained and practiced to the absolute best of our ability. In my humble opinion, that includes carrying in a condition that allows me to react to that most distasteful of situations in the most efficient manner possible. For me that is carrying in condition 1. I am comfortable with it and I know that I can draw and un-safe quickly - and my finger stays alongside the guard until I know I am going to have to use it.