January, 1945 Colt

[doubs43]

A friend recently acquired a Colt 1911A1 serial number 2249347 and I was able to examine it today. I didn't have my camera with me but I do have permission to photograph it later. I have no idea when that may be.

Finish is original and at least 98+ percent. We stripped it down and after examining it as closely as possible in the time I had, IMO it's 100% original and has not been overhauled or touched in any way.... except it was British proofed prior to the Proof Act of 1955 and has "Not English Make" stamped on frame and slide in addition to the usual proof marks.

The inspector's stamp "G.H.D." was in large font and placed vertically above the mag release. There was a "P" below the mag release. The slide markings were correct as per Clawson (I had the book with me) as was the hammer, sights and the seven line mainspring housing. The crossed cannons stamp is NOT present. Grips were the correct plastic type although I didn't note the backing. The frame has the letter "G" stamped near the disconnector.

The barrel is finished dark and marked "P" on the left lug and "C in a square" on the right. Under the barrel is the rather small letter "D". The "Colt 45 Auto" marking is not present on the barrel.

The magazine is unmarked on the base but I didn't look at it any more closely than that. It appears to be correct for that serial number pistol.

As near as I can tell, this is an untouched military issue pistol.... except for the British proof marks. My friend bought the Colt and an all matching P-38 with holster from the same elderly gentleman. (My friend isn't a spring chicken himself!)

[bgiven]

If it is British proofed, it should be marked on the slide, frame and the barrel hood. Additionally, the crossed cannons, or US Ordnance Escutcheon should be present, and stamped after finish, on a 1945 production M1911A1.

[doubs43]

If it is British proofed, it should be marked on the slide, frame and the barrel hood. Additionally, the crossed cannons, or US Ordnance Escutcheon should be present, and stamped after finish, on a 1945 production M1911A1.

The British proofs were on the barrel hood, frame and slide. I've just gotten off of the phone with my friend and he says there is a faint crossed cannons mark but it's not well stamped and only about 1/2 of it is clear. (I missed it earlier but I was at a match and didn't have as much time as I'd have liked.) He thought it may show more of the stamp under a magnifier and strong light.

I also asked him to check the magazine closer than I did and he says the base tongue has the letter "L" stamped on it's top.

[bgiven]

OK, anything else....????? And should we expect a question regarding your post ?????

[Axel]

Post pictures when you get a chance along with the P.38.

It sounds like a nice one and correct from your description.

Sometimes the crossed cannons stamp is faint even on original finish guns.

It is good the British set that one loose and that it made it back to the States.

[Johnny Peppers]

Strange that the U.S. was still sending pistols to England when the end of the war in Europe was in sight, and it wasn't like they had worn the others out from being used.

[doubs43]

OK, anything else....????? And should we expect a question regarding your post ?????

No and no.

[doubs43]

Strange that the U.S. was still sending pistols to England when the end of the war in Europe was in sight, and it wasn't like they had worn the others out from being used.

I wondered about that myself. I suppose it's possible that it was issued to an American GI and somehow ended up in the possession of a British soldier or civilian. With that in mind, I didn't want to suggest that it was a Lend-Lease pistol.

From personal experience with a good friend who served in the British Army in WW2 in England, N. Africa and Italy (that I know of) at least one 1911A1 was acquired through barter with an American GI. I don't recall any details of the pistol itself but I did have the pleasure of shooting it in the mid-1980's.

You may find his story interesting so I'll tell it. He was in communications and often served as a dispatch rider. He was offered a choice of a revolver chambered in .38S&W or a Thompson SMG. Ammunition for the .38S&W was so scarce that paperwork - in triplicate - had to be filled out if even a single shot was fired. He chose the Thompson because he could get all the .45ACP cartridges he wanted. Then he traded with an American GI for the 1911A1. Because it was a non-issue pistol, he was able to keep it when he was discharged. I was a member of an English pistol club for over three years and he became a very good friend.... one of the nicest people I've ever known at any time and a fine rifle shot as well. I wish now that I'd paid more attention to the details of his 1911A1.

One other interesting fact: The Viking Pistol Club building was what the Brits called a "Nissen Hut", the same as our Quonset Hut. Our hut was the RAF fighter pilot's scramble hut at RAF Martlesham Heath in Suffolk County near Ipswich during the Blitz and Battle of Britain. It was moved to the club grounds at Wickham Market - also in Suffolk - sometime in the 1960's I believe.

[Scott Gahimer]

When you get a chance to verify all the markings again, be sure to tell (or show) us if it is marked "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952".

We know the British, once they received the pistols, sometimes split those shipments up nd sent them to various locations. We also now know all the British Lend-Lease pistols were not commercially proofed for release at the saem time. They released their pistols over a period of years, not all in 1952

I suspect the pistol was a Lend-Lease pistol. It took time to get all the wheels turning to go to war here in this country. It also took time to get all the wheels stopped as the war came to a close.

There were Colt pistols in the same serial range known to be British Lend-Lease pistols.

Looking forward to photos and more info. Thanks for sharing the info. The magazine, to be an original magazine shipped by Colt in 1945, whould have the C-L, C-R or C-S on the bottom of the base plate, along with the lone letter on the top of the base plate toe.

[Axel]

Here is one that may have shipped over to England with yours.

I recall Johnny Peppers writing that the lend lease guns were usually mint when the British released them.
http://www.ghqst.com/img/1945s.jpg
http://www.ghqst.com/img/1945.Brit.jpg

[doubs43]

When you get a chance to verify all the markings again, be sure to tell (or show) us if it is marked "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952".

We know the British, once they received the pistols, sometimes split those shipments up nd sent them to various locations. We also now know all the British Lend-Lease pistols were not commercially proofed for release at the saem time. They released their pistols over a period of years, not all in 1952

I suspect the pistol was a Lend-Lease pistol. It took time to get all the wheels turning to go to war here in this country. It also took time to get all the wheels stopped as the war came to a close.

There were Colt pistols in the same serial range known to be British Lend-Lease pistols.

Looking forward to photos and more info. Thanks for sharing the info. The magazine, to be an original magazine shipped by Colt in 1945, whould have the C-L, C-R or C-S on the bottom of the base plate, along with the lone letter on the top of the base plate toe.

Scott, it was not marked "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952". The two "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" stamps - one on the frame and one on the slide - were in a very small font.

If this is a genuine Lend Lease pistol then I can verify that others were released after the 1955 Proof Laws became effective. The Colt that my father purchased from "Ye Olde Hunter" - Sam Cumming's Interarmco outlet in Alexandria, VA - about 1960 is not marked "NOT ENGLISH MAKE". It was absolutely brand new in it's brown issue cardboard box when we received it. While the pistol is still in the family and unmodified in any way, it went to my older brother and is 700 miles distance from me.

My friend lives over 50 miles from me but I'll make an effort to get with him in the near future to take pictures of the pistol. I'll be certain to closely examine the magazine for more marks as well.

[doubs43]

Here is one that may have shipped over to England with yours.

I recall Johnny Peppers writing that the lend lease guns were usually mint when the British released them.

Axel, thanks for both of your replies. That is an outstanding example of a British proofed 1911A1. When my father bought his Colt about 1960 - see my post above - "Ye Olde Hunter" was offering Colt, Remington Rand and Ithaca 1911A1 Lend lease pistols for $39.95 and they were brand new. Used, in NRA VG or Exc (I don't recall specifically now) were $34.95 IIRC.

I'll make sure to get pictures of the P-38 for you.

[Johnny Peppers]

The only Lend-Lease M1 Rifles sent to England was in late 1941 and early 1942, even though a main battle rifle was much more important than a pistol. By late 1944 M1 Rifle production was being scaled back from highs of approximately 100,000 rifles per month to less than 10,000 per month. Rather than Lend-Lease additional shipments of excess M1 Rifle production to England, production was simply cut. The U.S. was still sending 1911A1 pistols produced as late as March of 1945 to England. Were all the late Colts Lend-Lease or could they have arrived for U.S. troops in Europe about the time the war formally ended on May 8, 1945?
There are magazine ads from the 1950's advertising new in the box British proofed Ithaca 1911A1 pistols for just a small premium over a pistol without the box. There was a large surplus of unused 1911A1 pistols in England, whatever they were sent for.

[doubs43]

The magazine, to be an original magazine shipped by Colt in 1945, whould have the C-L, C-R or C-S on the bottom of the base plate, along with the lone letter on the top of the base plate toe.

Scott, looking on page 85 of Clawson's book, I see that WW2 unmarked base Colt magazines were correct with just the "L" on the lip or "L" plus "C-L". Is there further evidence that only the latter magazines with the addition of "C-L" were correct for 1945 Colts? Maybe somewhere else in the book that I haven't read so far?

[bgiven]

WWII contract magazines marked 'L' , 'R', 'G' and 'S' only on the top of the toe, were supplied to the US military as replacements, and were supplied to limited manufacturers being Ithaca, Remington Rand and Union Switch & Signal for their WWII production.

[doubs43]

WWII contract magazines marked 'L' , 'R', 'G' and 'S' only on the top of the toe, were supplied to the US military as replacements, and were supplied to limited manufacturers being Ithaca, Remington Rand and Union Switch & Signal for their WWII production.

After going back and re-reading page 85 of Clawson's book, I see what you're saying. Thanks for the clarification.