1911 Navy

[hhs66]

I picked this Navy up in a pawn shop awhile back. It appears to the novice to be correct. First, the bluing on the parts matches and has not been refinished. It has all the correct parts according to Clawson's book. There is a some mottling on the top of the slide, a tiny bit of freckling on the left side of the slide near the muzzle, some holster wear there, as well, and a slight "dummy" scratch on the left side of the slide from the take down lever. Over all, other than those issues, I would rate it a conservative 90%. The bluing on the frame is nearly mint. It was one of the 500 produced in 1915. Based on this sketchy description and the photos, would someone please give me some sort of idea what it might be worth? Thanks, Skip

[hhs66]

:fp:


http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/left.jpg
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/right.jpg
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/top.jpg

[bgiven]

How is the barrel marked, and what does the magazine look like. The reason I ask, the lanyard loop looks very skinny for some reason. Also is that some kind of rack number stamped on the LH side of the frame.... 18 ????

[hhs66]

The barrel is marked HP on the top and for some reason has a "J" on one of the legs. Don't know what that's about. Here's a photo of the mag. If you need it, I will get a photo of the barrel. Thanks, Skip

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/top.jpg

[bgiven]

HP how..... intertwined .... seperated.... vertical....horizontal ??????

Would like to see that mag photo you mention....???

[hhs66]

Sorry about that. I'm having a tough time navigating. I'll try it again.

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/Picture005.jpg

[bgiven]

Mag looks fine.... I don't know why the loop looks skinny, but it does.

Maybe post some pics of the barrel and the rack # on the frame.

[hhs66]

Separated. P first (nearest breech) and then H. Vertical (in line with the barrel). I can photo it if you like. Skip

[hhs66]

I guess that "18" on the frame is a rack number. Skip

[hhs66]

Here's those photos you requested. What's do you think it's worth? Thanks, Skip





http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/Picture011.jpg
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/Picture005.jpg

[hhs66]

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv232/hhs66/Picture010.jpg

[Scott Gahimer]

From what I can see, your pistol looks nice and is quite valuable if the only thing wrong with it (not factory original) is the "18" on the frame.

Values are always subjective on such collectibles, based on a lot of things. But...probably above $5K...even with the 18. That doesn't mean someone will pay $5K for it. They might pay less, more or not even be interested in it because of the 18. That's just the way the collectibles market is.

[hhs66]

Thanks, Scott. I'm going to spend the hundred bucks with Colt to get a letter. BTW, I noticed an ex-Navy collector on the board while I was cruising that has Colts that are tied to specific ships. How is that done? Skip

[Scott Gahimer]

There is no need to spend the money on a factory letter. The letter will not tell you anything we don't already know and have published in Clawson's 1st book. Mr. Clawson shows the Colt shipping records for your pisto in that book.

Your pistol was one of 500 pistols shipped to the Naval Militia. It is one of the last Navy-marked pistols. I'm away from home at the moment and can't give you the shipping information, but Johnny Peppers or a number of other collectors can, if they read your request for it.

As far as pistols assigned to specific ships in the records? There are some blocks of specifically assigned numbers. But some of the guns you are probably referring to do not have known shipping records.

Some collectors attempt to speculate where some pistols went through interpolation...a fancy word for constructing facts that are not established with known records.

Example: We know "A" block of pistols went to ship 1. We know "D" block of numbered pistols went to ship 4. We calculate that blocks "B" and "C" went to ships 2 and 3.

The problem is, there aren't any documents that specifically establish those records. We do not know pistols were assigned in numerical order, or in any specific order as far as ships go. Did they issue to ships in alphabetical order, by location, by date...? By specific need? All we know is what is estalished in the records.

Unless there are official shipping records or known offical military records somewhere like the National Archives, we might put together evidence we think we have, and then calculate a pistol was used on a specific ship...but that is often not based on established facts.

Sometimes it might be wishful thinking on our parts. If I state a pistol was used on a specific ship or at a specific location, I try to cite the source of my information. Personal or private records reportedly retained by individuals or family members, relatives, etc., don't generally hold as much water as records which are from known governmental sources or in factory shipping records.

Some records are known to have been fabricated to boost value and interest over the years. I'm referring specifically to GI bringback or "capture" papers. But the same principle might apply to any privately owned record. That's why so many collectors are skeptical about records other than those which are undeniably original and are part of known public records such as the National Archives.

I typically look at evidence or documents and ask myself "How difficult would that be to fabricate?" That usually helps me form an opinion about how much I'll value that piece of information.

When we have a copy of an official record that is on file at the National Archives, that's a pretty good record IMO. Without a record being known to be on file, it doesn't mean that record is fabricated, it just means it isn't a confirmed record. It could be a fake and generally should be qualified when presented.

Documentation is a gray area much of the time. We think we know where something was shipped, issued or used. What we often have when all the facts are established is a nice story, but little hard facts.

I don't think there is any set way to determine across the board what is fact and what is fluff. I typically like information that is confirmed and verified by multiple "official" sources.

I keep personal records I am given with pistols, but don't expect others to attach that much value to them. Others have different opinions.

It still all boils down to buy the gun, not the story.

[doubs43]

According to Clawson, 500 Model 1911 pistols were shipped to the USN (Militia) on Feb. 3, 1915 and were serial numbered from 109501 ~ 110000.

[bgiven]

I certainly agree with Scott.... $5x maybe more to the right person. Everything seems to be correct, with the exception of the '18'. For a Navy, it appears to be in very good condition. While it is one of the last Navy marked examples, it seems that the early versions carry all the value with hardcore collectors, especially serial number 3500 and down.

I'm quite positive your trip to the pawn shop has been quite beneficial.

[Scott Gahimer]

According to Clawson, 500 Model 1911 pistols were shipped to the USN (Militia) on Feb. 3, 1915 and were serial numbered from 109501 ~ 110000.

Thanks for providing the shipping info.

[_Dr]

Very nice indeed. I have never seen a Navy.