Military issue Colt 1911 with no serial number

[stormdragon]

My FFL recently took in a Colt 1911, Property of the United States Government with bi-tone mag and original grips but with no serial number at least not under the "Property" rollmark as I would expect.

Can anyone shed any light no why and how, perhaps on a date and provenance?

[Duane Hansen]

stormdragon, we would need pictures and way more information. If a Military 45 shows no serial number, chances are almost 100% that it was removed by someone after it came into civilian hands. With pictures we could narrow it down as far as possible date of mfg by inspector stamps and possibly finish although it may very likely be refinished at this point.

[stormdragon]

I'll get some pics tomorrow.

[bgiven]

It is remotely possible that a M1911 was not serial numbered, but highly unlikely. There are Colt and Remington UMC examples in Meadow's book US Military Automatic Pistols but they are extremely rare.

[stormdragon]

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt01.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt02.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt03.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt04.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt05.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt06.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt07.jpg

[stormdragon]

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt08.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt09.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt10.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt11.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt12.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt13.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt14.jpg

[stormdragon]

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt15.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt16.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/Colt17.jpg

[stormdragon]

Someone suggested this might be a "lunch box" gun stamped with "Property..." but pulled and slipped out before the serial number was stamped on the frame. All the other rollmarks seem to be consistent with what I've seen on other Military issue 1911s.

Someone did attempt at some point to scratch out or rub out the "Property" rollmark.

So, what say you? Any estimate of value?

[Richard Weed]

Can you get a real good close up of the serial number area and on th left side where the inspector stamped it?

[stormdragon]

Can you get a real good close up of the serial number area and on th left side where the inspector stamped it?

Can you clarify for me what area you mean or post a picture of that area from another gun? Thanks.

[Scott Gahimer]

It appears there are the remnants of the final inspection mark on the left side of the frame above the magazine release button. That, and the fact someone has attempted to remove the USP mark seems to indicate the pistol was accepted by the government at one time, and then later had the markings removed.

Close-ups of directly below the United States Property marking and above the mag release button would be of help.

[stormdragon]

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/ClUp1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/Colt/ClUp2.jpg

[Scott Gahimer]

Yes, but is there any chance of getting sharper images? It still looks like a final inspection mark, but I can't tell with the fuzzy images.

[stormdragon]

Yes, but is there any chance of getting sharper images? It still looks like a final inspection mark, but I can't tell with the fuzzy images.

Yes, I'll go by on Monday and get some better, clearer pics of those areas.

[wichaka]

That last pic of the serial number, appears to have a ghost image showing of some numbers.

I think the numbers have been taken off, then the gun refinished.

[Duane Hansen]

Just a clear and close up shot of where the serial number should be, right below the USP markings. Also, on the other side (left side) right in the mag release area should be an inspector mark of some sort. Get a close up of that area too.

[Pappy]

My FFL recently took in a Colt 1911, Property of the United States Government with bi-tone mag and original grips but with no serial number at least not under the "Property" rollmark as I would expect.

Can anyone shed any light no why and how, perhaps on a date and provenance?

Curious, what does your FFL have listed for a serial number??

[Hawkmoon]

Did anyone look under the slide stop to see if there's a number there?

[Richard Weed]

Did anyone look under the slide stop to see if there's a number there?


Colt didn't do that during WWI or prior when that gun was made.

[Richard Weed]

Curious, what does your FFL have listed for a serial number??


If there truly is or was no serial number on that pistol he wouldn't need one. Serial numbers weren't required until sometime after that gun was made. However, I do not believe it left the factory without a number but having a USP on it.

[OD*]

Curious, what does your FFL have listed for a serial number??
Probably listed as "None."

[Pappy]

Isn't it against the law to remove the serial number??? Assuming there once was one???

An after thought...suppose there was a ser #. Someone did a good job on removing the #, and another person botched the removal of the USP...

Conclusion; never a # and someone tried to remove the USP....

[OD*]

Isn't it against the law to remove the serial number??? Assuming there once was one???
If it was removed, it certainly is, if it never had one it isn't. Serial numbers were not required until the "Omnibus Crime Bill and Safe Streets Act of 1968" (AKA Gun Control Act of 1968).

[Doran]

Pictures in the Meadow's book show replacement pistols with the USP stamp. However, the USP placement on this pistol occurred long after the sequential serial number requirement was waived eliminating the need for replacement pistols.

[Pappy]

As a side note, I had a Marlin lever rifle without a #. Factory said to send it back and they would put one on..

And I think the BATF will put one on...but that is dangerous waters..

[Hawkmoon]

Colt didn't do that during WWI or prior when that gun was made.
True, but if it's a mixmaster the presence of a serial number where there should not be one might be instructive.

[Hawkmoon]

As a side note, I had a Marlin lever rifle without a #. Factory said to send it back and they would put one on..

And I think the BATF will put one on...but that is dangerous waters..
The BATFE will either allow a recovered serial number to be reapplied, or to provide a replacement serial number that must be applied ... in the case of a gun from which the serial number has been removed or defaced. The law does not require a serial number on firearms before 1968 so if there never was a serial number, the BATFE has no basis on which to require that a serial number be applied.

[OD*]

And I think the BATF will put one on...but that is dangerous waters..
They would at one time, I have one, but I don't know in today's climate.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/BATFENumber-1.jpg

[Richard Weed]

True, but if it's a mixmaster the presence of a serial number where there should not be one might be instructive.

Huh? How? Both parts were made prior to Colt stamping slides to their frames. The only that slide could have a serial number on it would be if someone stamped it themself in which case it means nothing. In any case, the slide is not the control part of the pistol.

[Richard Weed]

They would at one time, I have one, but I don't know in today's climate.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/BATFENumber-1.jpg


Did you see ATF do that? It really looks like something Bubba did.

[Richard Weed]

As a side note, I had a Marlin lever rifle without a #. Factory said to send it back and they would put one on..

And I think the BATF will put one on...but that is dangerous waters..


I had a Marlin .22 rifle that didn't have a serial number on it. It was stolen and when I reported it to the police they gave me some sideway glances when I told them that. I bought that rifle new from a large sporting goods store on sale in early 1969 just prior to going to Viet Nam. I'm guessing after the law was passed in 1968 whatever was in inventory was okay to sell but all production from that point on had to have a serial number.

[OD*]

Did you see ATF do that? It really looks like something Bubba did.
No I didn't, I know the son of the Deputy Sheriff that was with the agent at the time of the stamping.

[Hawkmoon]

Huh? How? Both parts were made prior to Colt stamping slides to their frames. The only that slide could have a serial number on it would be if someone stamped it themself in which case it means nothing. In any case, the slide is not the control part of the pistol.
But you are assuming that the slide is original to the receiver, or was made at the same time. I think the gun looks like a mixmaster and finding a serial number under the slide stop would confirm that. It certainly would not be the correct serial number for the pistol, but it would show that it's a replacement slide.

[kenhwind]

Why is the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" in the wrong place for a 1911 receiver?
Is this receiver a 1911A1 "reweld" that was made to look like a 1911?
This receiver looks funny IMO.
But I don't know, and neither does anyone else.
BATFE would be very skeptical of a USP marked .45 and no serial #.
Quite assuming it s right. It ain't, compare pictures.
BUBBA SPECIAL!!!

[OD*]

Why is the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" in the wrong place for a 1911 receiver?
The United States Property marking was OK'd to be moved to that location on 5 June, 1918.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/heartcutout1.jpg
[Charles Clawson photo)

[kenhwind]

The United States Property marking was OK'd to be moved to that location on 5 June, 1918.
OK, If I had "Clawsen's " I might of knowd that.

[Richard Weed]

But you are assuming that the slide is original to the receiver, or was made at the same time. I think the gun looks like a mixmaster and finding a serial number under the slide stop would confirm that. It certainly would not be the correct serial number for the pistol, but it would show that it's a replacement slide.

The slide on the OP's pistol is an M1911 slide and is marked as such. Those were not numbered by Colt.

[stormdragon]

I tried to take these from different angles. I honestly don't see any hint of a serial number.


http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/1911/19111a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/1911/19112a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/1911/19113a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/1911/19114a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/1911/19115a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~daoist/1911/19116a.jpg

[stormdragon]

Colt didn't do that during WWI or prior when that gun was made.

Am I reading you right here?

[Richard Weed]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was responding to the poster that was saying to check under the firing pin stop for a serial number on the slide. Colt didn't number slides on guns made during or prior to WWI. Your gun was made sometime during WWI as evidenced by the USP marking on the right side of the frame. I notice there's some discoloration where the serial number should be.

[stormdragon]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was responding to the poster that was saying to check under the firing pin stop for a serial number on the slide. Colt didn't number slides on guns made during or prior to WWI. Your gun was made sometime during WWI as evidenced by the USP marking on the right side of the frame. I notice there's some discoloration where the serial number should be.

We looked under the slide stop and there are no numbers. I've closely examined the area under the USP and I cannot detect any hint of any numbers at all. I don't think the gun has been refinished. I'm not sure what the discoloration would be but I cannot detect anything that appears as though there were numbers there. Several people at the FFL have examined it and cannot seen anything where the serial number should be.

The whole surface of the gun is like that discoloration and there is some surface rust with some pitting near the barrel end of the slide.

I'm not sure I can take any other pictures that would show it more clearly. Too bad you can't see the gun first hand.

[Pappy]

Would laying a straight edge along the frame show a gap where the # should be????

Seems to me if the # had been removed, there would be a depression there...

[stormdragon]

We could certainly try that and will. However, I would think if the serial number were stamped on the frame as opposed to laser etched it would be difficult to remove it without leaving some indication. The surface were it is supposed to be just looks like the rest of the gun. It is indistinquishable. On the other hand the attempt to remove the USP was crude and left the finish worn off.

I've run my finger of that area and I don't detect any depression at all.

[Duane Hansen]

Richard Weed, You state that it is a WWI pistol as evidenced by the USP markings on the right side over the serial number. All 1911A1s are marked that way too so I'm not sure what you are referring to. The restorers sometimes take a few thousandths off the entire side of the pistol to remove damaged areas and then renumber and reletter it. If it's a very small area it can be welded up and then machined flat again. This way there would be no low areas to detect.

[rekladan]

The way the USP mark was crudely scrubbed may be a clue...

How long ago would you recon this area was scrubbed?

A couple of years, maybe?

[A.B.]

I looked at three of the angles, they all show a depression there:

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t316/gordonsorensen/19112aserial.jpg

[Pappy]

Try the straight edge....an index card will do....

[Pappy]

....... The restorers sometimes take a few thousandths off the entire side of the pistol to remove damaged areas and then renumber and reletter it. If it's a very small area it can be welded up and then machined flat again. This way there would be no low areas to detect.

A calipers and blueprint dimensions would give proof the side was milled down...

[stormdragon]

I'm afraid that calipers and blueprint dimensions are way outside my available resources.

Is it not even remotely possible it didn't actually have a serial number? Assuming for a moment that it really never had one, what would be the reason? Or is that the issue, there is no conceivable reason except in the most outreaches of the imagination why it would not have a serial number.

[rekladan]

Have you tried standing up a card, or other flat object to see if there is any kind of depression there?

[bgiven]

The only possible reason that a USGI pistol would not have a serial number is when they were shipping in numerical sequence. It has been noted that Colt and Remington UMC kept un-numbered pistols at the ready for a condemed or rejected piece coming off the assembly line to facilitate the continuation of the numerical sequence. Basicaly they would pull the rejected pistol, duplicate the serial number on the replacement, and continue production numericaly. Nobody wanted to hold up production for one serial number. Some of these un-numbered examples have been found, as shown in Meadows book. The pistol in this thread was not manufactured by Colt during the time of numerical sequence shipments.

[texagun]

Is it not even remotely possible it didn't actually have a serial number? Assuming for a moment that it really never had one, what would be the reason?

I have heard stories, though I have NEVER seen one, of "Lunch Box Specials" that were smuggled out of the factory in lunch boxes by workers who wanted a Colt .45. These guns supposedly lacked serial numbers AND the USP marking. My question is: Were the serial numbers stamped at the same time the USP marking was stamped, indicating governmental acceptance of the firearm? If they were, absence of a serial number on a gun that had the USP marking would indicate the serial number had been removed sometime later. Any thoughts?

[bgiven]

I believe the kicker is the final acceptance initials of the Ordnance Executive Officer for that particular district. For example, the Remington UMC in my collection, that has not been serial numbered, does have USP rollmarks, sub-inspector, and provisional inspection marks. What it does not have is the final inspection initials of Major Edmund E. Chapman (E.E.C.) who was responsible for all Remington UMC production. Remington UMC production was all shipped sequencialy, therefore they had the need for un-numbered pistols per Meadows from Aug. 1918 through June 1919.

[stormdragon]

Have you tried standing up a card, or other flat object to see if there is any kind of depression there?

I'll give that a try.

I guess the absence of a serial number is almost inconceivable in this situation.

[stormdragon]

I believe the kicker is the final acceptance initials of the Ordnance Executive Officer for that particular district. For example, the Remington UMC in my collection, that has not been serial numbered, does have USP rollmarks, sub-inspector, and provisional inspection marks. What it does not have is the final inspection initials of Major Edmund E. Chapman (E.E.C.) who was responsible for all Remington UMC production. Remington UMC production was all shipped sequencialy, therefore they had the need for un-numbered pistols per Meadows from Aug. 1918 through June 1919.

I don't see an inspectors acceptance over the mag release either.

[stormdragon]

I have heard stories, though I have NEVER seen one, of "Lunch Box Specials" that were smuggled out of the factory in lunch boxes by workers who wanted a Colt .45. These guns supposedly lacked serial numbers AND the USP marking. My question is: Were the serial numbers stamped at the same time the USP marking was stamped, indicating governmental acceptance of the firearm? If they were, absence of a serial number on a gun that had the USP marking would indicate the serial number had been removed sometime later. Any thoughts?

Perhaps this is just an Urban Legend in the gun world. Many have heard of it but no one has ever seen one.

[TattooPaul]

Perhaps this is just an Urban Legend in the gun world. Many have heard of it but no one has ever seen one.


"Lunch Box Specials" are quite rare but do exist. Some were smuggled whole, some in parts. A friends father had a Colt's 'A1 with no crossed cannons or final acceptance stamp on it. It did have the assemblers stamp, "P", and "VP" suggesting it left the factory whole but before final inspection. It was in the early 70's that I saw it. I'm not sure where he or it are nowadays. There are photos of one on Karl Karash's photo CD of a Colt's 1911 with no serial no. or final acceptance stamps either that he attributes to liberation by an employee. They do exist, but are exceedingly rare.

[bgiven]

A friends father had a Colt's 'A1 with no crossed cannons or final acceptance stamp on it.

Remember Colt didn't start stamping Ordnance Crossed Cannons until about serial number 830,000 about mid-1942.

[Scott Gahimer]

1943 Colt 948655 is an all-original pistol with a direct hit in the National Archives noting its use on the USS Tisdale, a destroyer escort during WWII. When the ship returned from WWII, she was docked at Portland and prepared for decommissioning. I bought that pistol from a gun shop in the same area a few years ago. It has no final inspection and no crossed cannons Ordnance Acceptance mark. 1943 Colt 9528xx is the same way and is also original.

When I read the dealer's ad claiming the pistol was original finish, yet lacked the final inspection and crossed cannons, I just assumed he was incorrect. I looked at his photos and it looked original. Then I thought possibly a lunchbox...but with a serial number? So I checked the SRS database and saw there was a direct hit. That's when I ccontacted the dealer and bought the pistol.

An original Colt pistol without the final inspection and crossed cannons (when it should have them) is extremely rare, but there are at least a few. The observed pistols are believed to have possibly been factory repaired prior to leaving the factory.

This doesn't have anything to do with the OP's pistol, but is in reply to TattooPaul's post about the pistol that belonged to the father of his friend.

[TattooPaul]

As I think back to that Colt that I last saw when I was in high school (back in the mid '70's) I can't say for sure if it had a serial number or not. I can picture it both ways. Mike's dad liked to say that it had been likely "liberated" from the factory. He also was an NRA member and I can't see him owning a pistol with an obliterated or missing serial number.

On the other hand, the Colt on Karl's photo CD is definitely lacking serial number, proof stamps, assembler stamp, verified proof and acceptance markings.

[stormdragon]

We tried the card test and there is no depression. We also removed the grips and found no marks there either. The is an S with a circle on the trigger guard but no inspectors mark near the mag release.

[bgiven]

'S' in a circle is from The R F Sedgley Company, Philadelphia, PA who was a known outside third party armourer used by some branches of the US Military from time to time.

[OD*]

Did you see ATF do that? It really looks like something Bubba did.
Another BUBBAFIED ATF M1911

http://forums.1911forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43573&d=1249759506

DEnig
Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 1

My 1911 will make the purists cry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sadly my 1911 has no real value other than as a shooter. It has a story. And, I probably had bad advice at a time or two when I was trying to decide what to do. Hopefully I didn't make a bad mistake.
I found my 1911 in the attic of my old house. We had lived there about 4 years and one day I went into the small cramped area of the attic to run cable for a tv upstairs. I found an old brittle paper bag with an unloaded 1911 in it. The S/N and "Property of US Government" had been scratched off. Additionally, someone had scratched their initials into the slide. The finish was about 70% excluding the scratched areas. I was able to make out most of the S/N. BATF confirmed what I was able to make out and provided the last digit for me. That number was 1704XX. Dates the 1911 to the year 1917.
BATF had it a year and a half but as it was never reported as a stolen firearm, I was able to get it back. Of course, it had to have a new S/N (provided by BATF) that I had to have stamped on it.
Several gun shops told me it had no value. A couple (of course) expressed an interest in offering me a hundred or hundred and a half for it. Everyone I talked to said it had no collectors value. Perhaps that is so. I never bothered to research it more. Instead, the first thing I did after getting it back was drop in a new barrel. The old one was pretty well pitted. Cleaned it up, shot it a few times and other than taking it out a couple of times a year for fun, I pretty much put it out of mind until a couple of years ago.
Figuring that it had no collectors value, and seeing how it was really a sweet shooting pistol I figured why not have it rebuilt. I like the 1911 very much. I was introduced to the 1911 many years ago. I carried one in the military and would carry one on duty today if my agency would allow it. Off duty I sometimes carry a Colt Combat Commander. Something about the Colt 45 that I like better than the other 1911 copies.
I had the old 1911 stripped down to bare metal and refinished. Mostly in matte black but with a few parts left in natural finish. It is a phenomenal pistol. I personally think it feels better than my duty Glock 23. I get better results on the range with it than my Glock. It feeds everything I have put through it so far from ball to jhp.
I'm attaching a couple of photos of the 1911 as it is now. Sadly, I can't find the pics I took before I had the work done.

[CHILO45]

I met a retired police officer yesterday afternoon while out walking my dog at a wetlands reserve and we talked about firearms (as we were both concealed carrying). He stated that he has a WWII issued COLT 1911 that does not have a serial number. It belonged to his father who was a special forces guy and his story was that it was a run of guns specially for the "behind enemy lines" forces - factory accuratized weapons. I am hoping to meet up with him again so I can ask if I can take a couple of pictures of the gun and the areas where a serial number would normally be. Will post again if I can get those pictures.

[bgiven]

Post some pictures for interest sake, because the story is pure fiction.

[Scott Gahimer]

Agreed. The OSS was the closest thing we had to "behind the lines" special forces units during WWII and their pistols were standard issue with normal markings and serial numbers.