Blued RS Colt on AA

[Duane Hansen]

Does the Colt markings on the barrel look legit to you? I see there are other problems with this Colt as well. The sights for one thing and I don't see an RS stamp on top of the frame either.
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9228821

[ulfman]

Hi
I like the pistol and I was bidding on this before on GB. The CSR on the top and RS marking on the frame makes it intresting. But as I pointed out in AA (small text under pict) the seller says it refinished in his feedback to the seller on GB.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewUserFeedback.asp?User=152405

Best regards Ulfman

[bgiven]

Does the Colt markings on the barrel look legit to you? I see there are other problems with this Colt as well.

If you can't figure it out the barrel..... but you think you see other problems, maybe it's just best to move on.

[Duane Hansen]

Bgiven, Thanks once again for your constructive remarks. You are always so helpful.

[TattooPaul]

That barrel just doesn't sit well with me. I pulled my '43 apart and sure enough, they just don't seem right. I know there are variations during manufacture as stamps replaced but I have not seen stamps that look like those. I may be wrong but I have my doubts about that one. Here's my '43's appearance. The price isn't bad but with new sights and other non-original points it is up to you if you want to look for more originality or not. The barrel does send up a flag to me.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/TattooPaulie/barrellug2.jpg



http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o138/TattooPaulie/barrellug.jpg

[Duane Hansen]

The only reason I called attention to this Pistol on AA is because their were so many bogus things wrong with it. The barrel has been restamped by someone with their handy dandy stamp set. I wanted it to be a learning time for some of the new comers to collecting 1911s

[Johnny Peppers]

Barrel is correct and correct for the pistol, but may not be original to the pistol, and is the small G variety. The barrel shown by TattooPaul is a large G with an F barrel. The marking was put on with a roll die, and the markings cannot be duplicated by hand stamping.
The front of the slide has been milled down, apparently for some reason in installing a new front sight.
Not much condition, but interesting variation with CSR provisional inspection and RS acceptance.

[bgiven]

Bgiven, Thanks once again for your constructive remarks. You are always so helpful.

You are welcome.

[Scott Gahimer]

There is nothing wrong with the barrel. Like Johnny said, it may not be the original barrel to the pistol (only a firsthand inspection could verify that), but it is an authenticate Colt barrel that was used when the pistol was manuactured.

Let's stick to commenting on the pistol and not about our site members.

[bgiven]

Small G Colt Type 6 barrel looks fine to me as well. Wear patterns will determine originality to this particular example. As Johnny eluded to, you can't get much closer to the CSR to RS changeover than that !!!!! Very interesting as I recall this was done at about s/n 723,000.

[mackey]

Just for my own education...what are some of the other things that stand out to you guys? For me, noticed the replaced sight, milled top of slide as the seller stated, punch pricks on R side of slide, polished ramp seems like an obvious attempt to hide refinishing. One thing I like was lots of pictures, hard to say the seller was trying to hide anything.

[TattooPaul]

There is nothing wrong with the barrel. Like Johnny said, it may not be the original barrel to the pistol (only a firsthand inspection could verify that), but it is an authenticate Colt barrel that was used when the pistol was manuactured.

Let's stick to commenting on the pistol and not about our site members.


I have seen font variations in person and in photos but this one seemed so large and is placed higher and more forward of others I have seen. This one looked too "off" to be correct. I thought it may be a non- "Colt 45 Auto" barrel that had be restamped to appear as vintage Colt material.

Those prickpunch marks are likely from a hardness test.

[Johnny Peppers]

There is no way to restamp the barrel and make it look that original. The original markings were put on with a roll die. Firearms restorers have to resort to engraving the letters and numbers as they are impossible to restamp.
Also notice that the top of the marking is weak, which is an indication that the roll die was not exactly perpendicular to the barrel. Someone trying to individually stamp each letter and number could not have aligned the dies that correctly for every stamp.

[bgiven]

Those prickpunch marks are likely from a hardness test.


I agree... Rockwell 'C' testing.

[Johnny Peppers]

The Rockwell "D" scale was used for the 1911A1, except for the part of the slide that was not tempered, and it used the "B" scale.
Remington Rand checked the tempered area of their slice frequently, but those punch marks are in the part of the slide that is not tempered.

[bgiven]

Thanks Johnny... I knew it was one of them there Rockwells !!!!!

[TattooPaul]

There is no way to restamp the barrel and make it look that original.

If so, how did Bill Adair and how do the folks at places such as Turnbull's restore these markings? I have seen three barrels that Turnbull's restored and the rollmarks had to be helped on at least two of them and they looked looked the same as the original ones, nice and linear and the font looked as original. These are why I was suspicious of the font on that barrel as I had not seen it before. I now have added it to my mental reference as a correct vintage rollmark.

[Johnny Peppers]

Firearms restorers have to resort to engraving the letters and numbers as they are impossible to restamp.


As noted in my previous post, they are engraved.

[TattooPaul]

That is some incredible engraving to restore rollmaks and stamps. I figured you may be referring to how smaller, local (for lack of a better term) restoration 'smiths do it. The ones I have seen looked like the factory ones. All the characters are even and perfectly shaped. It doesn't take much at all for a slight misstep in shape or depth to show up big when dealing with type (just like the tattoo business!). Thanks Duane, Johnny, Scott and everyone for helping with the ongoing education in looking for clues to correctness and originality. One's knowledge base is never complete!

[Johnny Peppers]

I figured you may be referring to how smaller, local (for lack of a better term) restoration 'smiths do it.

A few years back a collector/dealer I know came by my table and told me to drop by and see his 1911 Navy. It was the centerpiece of his display, and I was ask what I thought of it. I told him the Model of 1911 U.S. NAVY wasn't engraved deep enough. He then wanted to know why I thought it was engraved, but did admit that he had just gotten it back from Turnbull. He agreed that he didn't like the engraving as he didn't think it was deep enough either. I never saw it again, but he told me later that he returned it to Turnbull and it came back looking better. I doubt that the slide was a Navy slide, and the engraving was from a blank slide, and it just wasn't engraved correctly. With the original markings still on the pistol, all the engraver has to do is chase the numbers and letters, which doesn't require a master engraver.
The original markings were put on with roll dies under almost a ton of pressure which is beyond the scope of restorers. The markings cannot be applied with just a flat die, and they cannot be hand applied individually. Engraving is the only way left.

[Richard Weed]

Here's Bill Adair's website. For those of you who don't know, Bill passed away awhile back but his site is still up. This short cut should bring to a project that he shows step by step. It will give you the idea of how he was able to replace lettering. He was extremely good at it and priced it reasonably. Most times, it was worth the money if you had an old dog you wanted to make like new again. Remember, this was all done by hand.

http://www.restoration-gunsmith.com/RGFeatured1903Hammer.HTML

[bgiven]

Bill was 'The Man'.

[TattooPaul]

Excellent info folks. Thanks again! Bill was certainly a master. I'm glad that his site continues to run. I have spent much time there.

[Richard Weed]

I don't think it will be there for too long. I don't know the status of his estate, but there's a good chance it will go away if it isn't paid for.