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View Full Version : Introduction, and an interesting gun


Newbflat
7th July 2009, 14:14
Hello to all.... My name is Bill and i have been lurking around here for awhile trying to educate myself a little in Military issue 1911's. Im trying to research an interesting Colt for a good friend of mine and Im really impressed at what a great resource this is and the depth of knowledge floating around here... So i will now stop lurking and jump in.

Im in possession of a Pistol that belongs to a friend. It was his fathers and was used in Burma during WW II. He was Robert B. Walter USN (medic/ PhM 2/c) in the OSS Detachment-101 with the Kachin Rangers. For those unfamiliar with Detachment -101, read this http://www.burmastar.org.uk/101stair.htm#Personnel He was awarded the bronze star and a number of other decorations that im not sure of at the moment.

The Pistol is a 1911a1. It has handles of ivory carved by Kachin tribesmen and has the star/ sun insignia of the Kachin rangers carved into them. The No# is 9512XX (1943?) It has an OSS HD 101 ( i think its a HD, the D Isn't clear) "engraved" near the trigger on the handle. There is a lot of documentation about his fathers OSS service in the form of a special agent passport with chinese stamps in it and lots of photos of him in burma with the Kachin. I am told there are photos but haven't seen them of this gun and you can see the ivory handles. The owner has requested the newly declassified OSS records on his father but has yet to receive them.

One of the things Im trying to do here is verify that everything checks out with the gun. This is were you all come in!. Im new at this so if i ask silly questions please forgive me. The inspectors initials are GHD, there is an Ordnance Department Inspection stamp half struck, a "VP" triangle on the trigger guard with an 8 above it, a P next to the magazine release and a P on the top of slide 3/4 of an inch in front of the rear sight. There is also an un identifiable strike on the other side of the trigger guard... Maybe two zeros? The barrel has a P on one side and an HS on each side.

I have been trying to convinced my friend that his pistol is worth a fare bit of money and i think he half believes me. One of the things Im trying to figure out a "fare market value" for Insurance purposes. Its not for sail but it would be nice to get a good feel of what it is worth...... But mostly i think you all here would enjoy seeing this 1911 with such an interesting history..

Here are a couple of photos of each side..... just ask what you want to see and i will post them.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/bkcme/Pistolright.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/bkcme/Pistolleft.jpg

Scott Gahimer
7th July 2009, 15:45
Welcome to the forum. Neat pistol. I hope all the docuemnts come through for your friend to keep with his pistol.

The slide should be serial numbered on the back to match the number of the frame. You have to remove the firing pin stop plate to see it.

The barrel has been changed. Obviously the grips are not factory original, but with the pistol and docuemnts, will be nice and should not be changed.

The O.S.S. engraving is not original, either. Perhaps done after WWII? The OSS would not have marked a pistol that eay...at least it wouldn't make sense for them to do it.

Speculating on value at this time is difficult? Right now we see a pistol with an engraving and a pair of grips. With the proper original documentation, value and desirability would increase. Maybe $1000-1500 right now. Probably more than twice that with all the documented history. But there needs to be authentic documentation to elevate value much.

Newbflat
7th July 2009, 16:44
The slide numbers match ....

I suspected that the barrel was not original but wasn't sure.

The OSS engraving looks to be done with one of those vibrating engravers. I have no idea when it was done but was there before the owner inherited the pistol. I realize anyone could add that. It does seem odd.. i would be interested in finding out if any other OSS pistols had such an engraving or wether Mr. Walter did it after the war.

I have no doubt that the pistol is legitimate as i have seen many of the pictures of Mr. Walter in Burma and some of the documentation. The owner and i have been friends for 40 years and i have long known that his dad was part of the OSS Detachment -101. Most of the Interest in the gun comes from me as he is not trying to sell it. At the moment most of Mr. Walters documentation it is scattered in various boxes and not compiled into a "portfolio" of the guns history and provenance. I have been bugging him to do so.

I am curious just what constitutes "proper original documentation"? Is there something in his service records that would tie him to this pistol?.... what am i looking for here.

By the way...... I'm an avid sailor and i do know the difference between" sail" and "sale"..Sometimes the avid sailor part of me is apparently stronger. I have no excuse for the other spelling mistakes though.


http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/bkcme/Numbers.jpg

kwill
7th July 2009, 17:13
I have several pairs of similar grips in my collection, including some that could have been carved by the same craftsman. Did you notice that those are tiny rubies in the eyes? The star/sun emblem was the symbol for the CBI theater and the other side has the start of the USAAF symbol--the winged star. For some reason the wings were left off of some of them. My guess is that those were grips carved for Army/OSS personnel that were not in the Air Force.
Regards,
Kevin Williams
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/Grips/IMG_0011.jpg

Newbflat
7th July 2009, 18:04
Wow... Amazing!! I saw the eye's an thought .. no way. Are they real Ruby's? They do look like little raw red stones that glow a bit in sun light. Burmese bling!. Very cool.

I have looked and looked for what the circle with a star and ... stars? means. Yours explanation sounds as good as any. So are there a lot of these carved grips? The two in your picture look to be carved by two different people. The one on the right is a nicer carving indeed. The one on the left looks like the same carver as the one on the pistol above from what i can see. If you look at the star in the shield and the way the ears and tusk is carved ... very, very similar. Its the same star without wings too. If you have a bigger photo of the one's on the left i would love to make a carful comparison.

Do you have the pistols these came off of? any info on there history?.... any pertinent info on what to look for.

Thanks for sharing!

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/bkcme/Grip2.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/bkcme/Grip1.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad99/bkcme/Rubyeye.jpg

kwill
7th July 2009, 18:43
Here are the period correct shoulder patches that correspond to the motif of the grips:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/pre46ap.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/kwill1911/38215-1.jpg
If you want to email me I'll send you a high resolution photograph of the grips that are so similar to yours. I have some other examples I can also send you.

kevin at kwill dot com

d90king
7th July 2009, 19:01
Welcome to the forum and congrats on a very cool pistol, best of luck with it.

Scott Gahimer
8th July 2009, 01:55
...I am curious just what constitutes "proper original documentation"? Is there something in his service records that would tie him to this pistol?.... what am i looking for here.

It's hard to say what you are looking for. I would recommend looking at everything you can to get the whole picture. When researching anything, I try not to look for specific answers. I seek to find specific evidence and let the evidence determine my conclusions.

You might find an issue or purchase document. You might find photos of him in uniform in the CBI theatre of operations with the pistol...who knows?

I would recommend to have the son try to gather all the stuff that relates to his dad and take the time to sort it out. I'm sure it will be revealing and rewarding. I wish I was there to wade through the stuff with him.

Grumpa72
8th July 2009, 08:25
I LOVE those grips with the pistol. The history behind it, and the fact that they actually compliment the appearance, only adds to it. I hope your friend keeps this bit of family history.

It is also very impressive that others have similar grips and helped explain the various details of the grips.

Gary