War time 1911 without markings?

[sovrapposti]

Is it true there're war time production military 1911/1911A1 without any marking & ser. #s? TIA

[Frank]

Is it true there're war time production military 1911/1911A1 without any marking & ser. #s? TIANo, it's not true.

DVC

[Johnny Peppers]

The serial number was the only way both the manufacturer and the military had of keeping up with the pistol. Colt originally shipped the 1911 and 1911A1 in numerical serial number order, but this proved to be such a headache when the shipments became large, the practice was dropped.
A 1911 or 1911A1 without a serial number has had the serial number defaced.

[bgiven]

Colt originally shipped the 1911 and 1911A1 in numerical serial number order, but this proved to be such a headache when the shipments became large, the practice was dropped.
A 1911 or 1911A1 without a serial number has had the serial number defaced.


.... but during WWI production, didn't Colt and Remington UMC keep un-numbered pistols at the ready, so to be able to replace a rejected pistol on the line, to be able to ship on time, in serial number order....????? Hence the pictured examples in Meadows' book of original un-numbered examples.

[Duane Hansen]

Yes, unnumbered pistols were kept for such situations but were never shipped out without being renumbered and inspected. Meadows examples are possible but I think are much more rare than we are maybe lead to believe. Many, if not most of the examples we see are frames that have been defaced, with ground off numbers and inspector marks.

[Johnny Peppers]

.... but during WWI production, didn't Colt and Remington UMC keep un-numbered pistols at the ready, so to be able to replace a rejected pistol on the line, to be able to ship on time, in serial number order....????? Hence the pictured examples in Meadows' book of original un-numbered examples.

I believe the only example shown in Meadow's book without a serial number is a Remington-UMC, and from the text of Meadow's book:

"Any pistols discovered by the inspector which did not bear a serial number would not have passed final inspection."

[bgiven]

I believe the only example shown in Meadow's book without a serial number is a Remington-UMC, and from the text of Meadow's book:

"Any pistols discovered by the inspector which did not bear a serial number would not have passed final inspection."


Meadows Page 216 (One example pictured)

"Remington UMC Model 1911 pistol without inspection marking or serial number. Twenty two such pistols are noted in company correspondence with the Ordnance Department."

Also on page 212, A Remington UMC engineer is quoted about the possibility of unmarked pistols 'slipped through' and 'pistols shipped without serial numbers.'

Meadows Page 184 (Two examples pictured)

"A late model Model 1911 US Army replacement pistol with out serial number or inspection markings. These pistols were kept on hand to replace condemned pistols."

[sovrapposti]

Apologize for I obviously have not read "Meadows" book you're referring to, but according to the above post, did the above quote in the book p.212 confirmed any possibilities there're unmarked Remington UMC pistols "slipped through"?

[bgiven]

Actually confirmed the probability. They are few, but they are out there. I have one in my collection, and viewed another in Louisville at NGD a couple shows ago.

[sovrapposti]

Actually confirmed the probability. They are few, but they are out there. I have one in my collection, and viewed another in Louisville at NGD a couple shows ago.


Thank you for your information, I heard of such guns, and one had a letter from BATF stating it's legal to transfer. I don't know all the details, I'd like to see one's picture if possible.

Best regards.

[Johnny Peppers]

"A late model Model 1911 US Army replacement pistol with out serial number or inspection markings. These pistols were kept on hand to replace condemned pistols."

It does not say that they remained unnumbered when they replaced rejected pistols. The Remington-UMC unnumbered pistols have been known for years, but there is no proof that they were ever transferred to the military.

Is it true there're war time production military 1911/1911A1 without any marking & ser. #s? TIA

No, there are not any war time production military 1911/1911A1 without any markings and serial number.

[TJH3781]

http://www.1911info.us/images/1911/colt%20lunch%20box%201911/colt%20lunch%20box.htm

Is this what is being discussed?

[Frank]

I'd be very skeptical that any of these unfinished (insofar as they were not serial numbered and stamped with inspector markings) ever legitimately left the factory. They certainly would never have been delivered to the government.

There is the legend of "lunch box" guns -- guns built by individuals with stolen, unnumbered parts smuggled out of the factory. But most guns seen without numbers had their numbers removed, and possessing one would be a serious violation of federal law.

DVC

[Scott Gahimer]

All printed information is dated, too. I had a discussion with Scott meadows regarding those specific pistols and the descriptions shown in his book more than a year ago.
During our discussion he stated the information was th best he had at the time of print. He also agreed un-numbered pistols were not shipped to the military.

Once the requirement for consecutive serial numbered shipments was dropped, an un-numbered pistol sitting in the factory while production rates were so drastically increased to meet needs makes no sense to me.

I believe those pistols would have been numbered and sent out the door with others.
In fact, Mr. Clawson states one of the ways to identify oneof these pistols is that the serial number will be stamped after finish.
Also, I would add to this that the characteristics of that pistol might not match the serial range. If a pistol had been produced earlier and stored for later use, it might have earlier features, depending on when it was actually manufactured.

[bgiven]

It does not say that they remained unnumbered when they replaced rejected pistols. The Remington-UMC unnumbered pistols have been known for years, but there is no proof that they were ever transferred to the military.

I agree...some of the unnumbered pistols were numbered and used, but some certainly 'escaped' out into the general public, probably via the 'back door'. I would doubt that any were actually transferred to the military, but Remington UMC did elude to the fact that some could have 'slipped through'.

[Johnny Peppers]

This is a blued 1911A1 that missed getting the M1911A1 U.S. ARMY stamped the first time. Whether caught by Colt's inspectors or the Ordnance Department inspectors, it was sent back through and had the stamp put on after finish before it would be released.

http://i42.tinypic.com/n1rprr.jpg

[Frank]

...some certainly 'escaped' out into the general public, prbably via the 'back door'....In which case they'd be stolen property.

DVC

[bgiven]

In which case they'd be stolen property.

It's no secret that most military 1911s and A1s are just that.

[Scott Gahimer]

I think the point being made was that if stolen from the factory, they were not technically even a military pistol yet. They were never inspected, accepted or used by the military...they were just a piece of stolen property.

And yes, I agree, many of the U.S. military pistols we see and collect were technically stolen and carried home by someone.

[doubs43]

Roughly 15 years ago I sold a USS 1911A1 to a gentleman in PA who was a retired USS senior manager. During the course of several telephone calls he explained that he had a "Lunch box" USS 1911A1 without serial number or inspector marks. The pistol had been taken out of the factory piece by piece and final assembly was done at home by the thief. It was confiscated by the local police at some point and returned to USS where it sat in a safe for years. Knowing of his interest in USS pistols, a senior manager offered it to him and he accepted it.

While the above pistol is an unusual case, it illustrates the possibilities that such guns do exist.

[Frank]

Roughly 15 years ago I sold a USS 1911A1 to a gentleman in PA who was a retired USS senior manager. During the course of several telephone calls he explained that he had a "Lunch box" USS 1911A1 without serial number or inspector marks. The pistol had been taken out of the factory piece by piece and final assembly was done at home by the thief. It was confiscated by the local police at some point and returned to USS where it sat in a safe for years. Knowing of his interest in USS pistols, a senior manager offered it to him and he accepted it....I have to say I'm skeptical. I question even a senior manager selling his company's property in such a way.

We hear all sorts of stories like this, usually third hand and always without any documentation. Could it be true? Perhaps, but I think the odds favor the explanation that the story is simply a way of explaining a gun with the serial number removed.

DVC

[bgiven]

We hear all sorts of stories like this, usually third hand and always without any documentation. Could it be true? Perhaps, but I think the odds favor the explanation that the story is simply a way of explaining a gun with the serial number removed.

I agree completely.... but there is a difference between a gun with a serial number that has been removed, and one that never had one.

[doubs43]

I have to say I'm skeptical. I question even a senior manager selling his company's property in such a way.

We hear all sorts of stories like this, usually third hand and always without any documentation. Could it be true? Perhaps, but I think the odds favor the explanation that the story is simply a way of explaining a gun with the serial number removed.

DVC

I've just gotten off of the telephone after speaking with the gentleman in question and rather than debate this here, I have permission to give you his name and telephone number which I will PM to you a bit later along with information that he gave me about USS production. However, I think you'll find that he has far more information than I can possibly detail in a message. If you still doubt his story, so be it..... but I have no reason to doubt what he says and there's no motive for him to not tell the truth that I know of. He certainly had the opportunity to learn more about the USS 1911A1 production than anyone else I know of.

Let me also amend my original story to say that the gun did have a serial number that was removed and now bears an ATF issued serial number.

[Johnny Peppers]

In 1991 a fellow collector and myself corresponded with a Mr. J. R. Egnot of U.S.& S. who was putting together the company history during WWII. Try as we might we never convinced him that some of the US&S pistols were not accepted under the authority of Col. Frank J. Atwood. We explained in detail why the initials of Col. Atwood would not have been on any US&S pistols, but in the end he chose to ignore the information. Some of the early serial number lists have pistols in the Remington Rand serial number range listed as US&S pistols, and in the end he chose this outside and incorrect information to put in the company history.
Since Mr. Egnot worked at US&S he should have had the opportunity to know or at least find out who the only Army Inspector of Ordnance was during US&S 1911A1 production, but didn't.

[Scott Gahimer]

And of course Mr. Egnot concluded there were Parkerized US&S pistols, too. One thing worse than no information is bad information.

[doubs43]

In 1991 a fellow collector and myself corresponded with a Mr. J. R. Egnot of U.S.& S. who was putting together the company history during WWII. Try as we might we never convinced him that some of the US&S pistols were not accepted under the authority of Col. Frank J. Atwood. We explained in detail why the initials of Col. Atwood would not have been on any US&S pistols, but in the end he chose to ignore the information. Some of the early serial number lists have pistols in the Remington Rand serial number range listed as US&S pistols, and in the end he chose this outside and incorrect information to put in the company history.
Since Mr. Egnot worked at US&S he should have had the opportunity to know or at least find out who the only Army Inspector of Ordnance was during US&S 1911A1 production, but didn't.

Oddly enough, my source - now known to Frank via a PM - worked with Mr. Egnot and together they produced a three chapter story that was never published. Chapter one dealt with the history of the 1911 and 1911A1 while chapter two was specific about USS pistols. Chapter three detailed information that was not verified at the time written.

My source had extensive conversations with every USS employee he could find who had any involvement with production of the USS pistols. They included Byron Light, one of six men sent to the Colt factory to learn how to tool up and produce the 1911A1. Light became Production Supervisor upon his return from the Colt factory. C.C. Thomas was in the Standards Lab and directly involved with the Du-Lite finish applied to all USS production pistols. Another individual with whom extensive conversations were held was a former Army Captain responsible for acceptance of the guns.

My source once owned a pre-production USS 1911A1 with the serial number "EXP 66". He sold it through Rock Island Auctions about two years ago. The EXP pistols numbered from 1-100 were distributed among management and staff after the war and EXP 66 went to a secretary working in Department "A" that was set up specifically for 1911A1 production.

In our discussion by telephone tonight, my source said that Remington-Rand had problems with their production in the Summer of 1943 and acquired parts - including slides - from USS. He believes that those slides ended up as Remington-Rand produced pistols on their frames and were Parkerized.

There is a single hand typed hardbound book produced by USS after the war called "Union Switch & Signal War Production" and the USS .45's are given an entire chapter. Mr. Egnot has a complete copy of the original book and my source has copies of the USS pistol production parts.

The gentleman I spoke to worked for USS from 1953 until he retired in 1991. He has had a long term interest in the USS pistols and has a great deal of information he's collected over the years. I can only repeat what he's told me and whether anyone chooses to believe what he says is up to them.

BTW, what do you know about seven USS Commemorative pistols privately commissioned to be built by the Colt Custom Shop between 1995 and 1997? They are blued with gold lettering and became the property of USS managers/employees.

Check your PM's.

[doubs43]

And of course Mr. Egnot concluded there were Parkerized US&S pistols, too. One thing worse than no information is bad information.

The man I spoke to tonight assured me that all 55,000 USS produced military pistols had a Du-Lite finish. (I may not spell "Du-Lite" correctly.)

[Frank]

...a retired USS senior manager...explained that he had a "Lunch box" USS 1911A1 without serial number or inspector marks....While the above pistol is an unusual case, it illustrates the possibilities that such guns do exist.But in your PM to me you wrote:

"...The "Lunch Box" pistol lay in a vault for 42 years ...The ATF was contacted as there appears to have been an original serial number that was removed and the pistol now has an ATF assigned serial number...."(emphasis added)

So the gun in question here appears to have been produced with a serial number which was removed. There's no doubt that such guns exist. That doesn't support the proposition that guns were made without serial numbers.

DVC

[doubs43]

But in your PM to me you wrote:

"...The "Lunch Box" pistol lay in a vault for 42 years ...The ATF was contacted as there appears to have been an original serial number that was removed and the pistol now has an ATF assigned serial number...."(emphasis added)

So the gun in question here appears to have been produced with a serial number which was removed. There's no doubt that such guns exist. That doesn't support the proposition that guns were made without serial numbers.

DVC

In post #23 I made that fact clear.

[Frank]

In post #23 I made that fact clear.Yes you did, and I missed it. I'm sorry. But in any case, we've been talking about guns produced without serial numbers, not those which have had serial numbers removed. There certainly seem to be plenty of the latter.

DVC

[Johnny Peppers]

My source once owned a pre-production USS 1911A1 with the serial number "EXP 66". He sold it through Rock Island Auctions about two years ago. The EXP pistols numbered from 1-100 were distributed among management and staff after the war and EXP 66 went to a secretary working in Department "A" that was set up specifically for 1911A1 production.


So far there is nothing to show that the EXP pistols were pre-production "experimental" pistols. Some are found with rejected parts, some with manufacturing flaws, and most have P proofed slides which were not used until past mid point of US&S production. Some show removal of the United States Property marking, and most have the late style Keyes grips. It is thought that they were put together after WWII for souvenirs of US&S 1911A1 pistol production. If your contact has documentation of these pistols being experimental, he will have added to our knowledge of these pistols.

[rekladan]

I suppose someone must have suggested that EXP may stand for "Export", right?

[Scott Gahimer]

I suppose some might suggest that, but to me that wouldn't make much sense. When they were produced, I don't think they would have been producing any pistols to be exported to another country. All the known production was contracted to the U.S. Government.

EXP=expensed is another suggestion I've heard that seems logical. All the EXP pistols I've ever examined showed signed of being assembled with some parts that would have been rejected from the military contract.

Expensed/written off the books fits more with what I've seen. But when there are no known factory records, it is unlikely we will ever know for sure the meaning of EXP.

During WWII, nobody ever imagined the questions that would arise 65 years later about the meaning of EXP. Nobody had today's collectors in mind. All the speculating today is done by those of us that don't know and others who don't remember.:butthead:

[doubs43]

So far there is nothing to show that the EXP pistols were pre-production "experimental" pistols. Some are found with rejected parts, some with manufacturing flaws, and most have P proofed slides which were not used until past mid point of US&S production. Some show removal of the United States Property marking, and most have the late style Keyes grips. It is thought that they were put together after WWII for souvenirs of US&S 1911A1 pistol production. If your contact has documentation of these pistols being experimental, he will have added to our knowledge of these pistols.

It was my impression from our discussion that they were pre-production. Perhaps I got a false impression. I don't think I used the word "experimental" at any time in reference to them. Considering that there were exactly 100 made, the theory that they were made after the contract was filled and given out as souvenirs to company members is plausible.

As long as we're guessing (Other's posts; not yours) about the meaning of "EXP", I'll throw out "Extended Production", "Excess Production" and "Extra Production" as possibilities. That assumes that they were made after the contract was filled.

You also now have his name and telephone number. Please speak with him and judge for yourself if his information is credible. He's certainly had access to information that most people would not.

[Johnny Peppers]

Where does the information come from that there were exactly 100 of the EXP pistols made? Everything I ever seen indicates "approximately" 100 made, which also coincides with the approximately 100 ERRS Remington Rand pistols, which are commonly called Experimental Remington Rand Service. It is known that most of the ERRS Remington Rands are extremely late, if not post war, production.
I did not give you credit for the "Experimental" name given to the EXP US&S pistols. They have been called that since long before I started collecting.
Mr. Egnot put his thoughts on the US&S pistol down in print, and if not for that I would have no record to discuss today. That is the only way that you are not left with impressions that may or may not be remembered correctly.

[Johnny Peppers]

This is on page 8 of "The Union Switch And Signal .45 Automatic Pistol" by J. R. Egnot and R. M. Karow, dated December 1990.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2lwmzgm.jpg

[doubs43]

Where does the information come from that there were exactly 100 of the EXP pistols made? Everything I ever seen indicates "approximately" 100 made, which also coincides with the approximately 100 ERRS Remington Rand pistols, which are commonly called Experimental Remington Rand Service. It is known that most of the ERRS Remington Rands are extremely late, if not post war, production.
I did not give you credit for the "Experimental" name given to the EXP US&S pistols. They have been called that since long before I started collecting.
Mr. Egnot put his thoughts on the US&S pistol down in print, and if not for that I would have no record to discuss today. That is the only way that you are not left with impressions that may or may not be remembered correctly.

The "exactly 100" came from my source in our discussion last night. He said they were numbered 1-100 consecutively.

My source and Mr. Egnot worked together at USS and collaborated on researching the USS production.

I've given you the information needed to speak with my source and rather than debate me, wouldn't it make more sense to go directly to the man himself? He made it clear that he's willing to share what he has with collectors. Please.... call him and see if he has anything new to add to the story of USS 1911A1's. I've pretty much exhausted what he's told me but I'm sure there's much more that we didn't touch upon. If you'd prefer to write, I can also give you his mailing address.

[doubs43]

This is on page 8 of "The Union Switch And Signal .45 Automatic Pistol" by J. R. Egnot and R. M. Karow, dated December 1990.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2lwmzgm.jpg

OK. That is not what Mr. Karow said last night. He said that all 55,000 USS production pistols had a "Du-Lite" finish that could easily be mistaken for Parkerizing. With 18 - 19 years since your quote was put to paper, it's quite possible that newer and better information has come to light. Over the past 50 years I've seen a lot of wrong information about Lugers corrected and I'm sure the 1911/1911A1 pistols go through the same revisions as new data is discovered.

[Johnny Peppers]

I'm sure your source would be welcome here on the forum to discuss the US&S pistols. Much new information has turned up since Mr. Egnot and Mr. Karow wrote their paper, and your source might enjoy the discussion.
Much of the information concerning the characteristics of the US&S pistols was discussed with Mr. Egnot, and he chose to follow his own opinions in most cases.
I would certainly love to see documentation on the 100 EXP pistols.

[Scott Gahimer]

...
I've given you the information needed to speak with my source and rather than debate me, wouldn't it make more sense to go directly to the man himself? He made it clear that he's willing to share what he has with collectors. Please.... call him and see if he has anything new to add to the story of USS 1911A1's. I've pretty much exhausted what he's told me but I'm sure there's much more that we didn't touch upon. If you'd prefer to write, I can also give you his mailing address.

Rather than to have every member contact Mr. Karow and wear him him out with phone calls or written correspondence, why not simpy extend an invitation to join our site and participate in the discussion directly?

If Mr. Karow does not have Internet access or the desire to join the site, perhaps the easiest way to find out if there is anything new they've turned up since the 1990 article I have (besides that the finish was Du-Lite), would be for one individual to ask if he has Mr. Clawson's latest 3rd Edition Collector's Guide or his 1991 Service Pistols book. If he does, that seems to be where we are at today as a benchmark of established and accepted information.

I agree information has been updated since 1990. Each time Mr. Clawson releases a new printing, his books are updated with new and corrected information. There is no sense in going through all the same information we already have from Mr. Egnot and Mr. Karow. That might prove exhausting. I suspect the new and corrected information would be a lot easier to discuss and explore.

[doubs43]

Rather than to have every member contact Mr. Karow and wear him him out with phone calls or written correspondence, why not simpy extend an invitation to join our site and participate in the discussion directly?

If Mr. Karow does not have Internet access or the desire to join the site, perhaps the easiest way to find out if there is anything new they've turned up since the 1990 article I have (besides that the finish was Du-Lite), would be for one individual to ask if he has Mr. Clawson's latest 3rd Edition Collector's Guide or his 1991 Service Pistols book. If he does, that seems to be where we are at today as a benchmark of established and accepted information.

I agree information has been updated since 1990. Each time Mr. Clawson releases a new printing, his books are updated with new and corrected information. There is no sense in going through all the same information we already have from Mr. Egnot and Mr. Karow. That might prove exhausting. I suspect the new and corrected information would be a lot easier to discuss and explore.

Mr. Karow does not have internet access. My first thought was to email him to ask questions that would provide a written record of his replies. He said he once had a computer but gave it up.

He does have two reference works on the 1911 pistols. They are Ken Hallock's "45 Auto Handbook" and Charles Clawson's 1993 book on "45 Service Pistols". If the titles aren't totally correct it's because I couldn't write fast enough to keep up with the information he was giving about them. I'm old and slow! But I can still nail a gallon milk jug every time offhand at 25 yards with a 1911. :)

If any of you live close to PA, Mr. Karow would be pleased to have you visit. He still has the "Lunch Box" pistol that has been discussed. Or, if one of you would like to correspond with him and ask specific questions, I'm sure he'd be pleased to answer. He really seems like a very nice man and willing to help. I can send you his mailing address.

[bgiven]

He does have two reference works on the 1911 pistols. They are Ken Hallock's "45 Auto Handbook" and Charles Clawson's 1993 book on "45 Service Pistols".

While the Clawson is a true reference book, I believe Hallock's book is the root of some of the misconceptions regarding military 1911s. If I'm not mistaken he actually stated that early US&S production ordnance inspection initials of 'FJA' pre-dated 'RCD'. The kicker was Singer ordnance inspection initials 'JKC' were by John K. Christmas !!!!!

[Johnny Peppers]

While the Clawson is a true reference book, I believe Hallock's book is the root of some of the misconceptions regarding military 1911s. If I'm not mistaken he actually stated that early US&S production ordnance inspection initials of 'FJA' pre-dated 'RCD'. The kicker was Singer ordnance inspection initials 'JKC' were by John K. Christmas !!!!!

Much of the information contained in the above mentioned US&S paper is credited to Hallock by the authors. The information about the FJA accepted US&S pistols was hashed and re-hashed with the final decision made by the authors to keep that information. Time has proven it wrong.
Hallock's line drawing of the US&S pistol shows it with the crossed cannons acceptance mark, and this information was included in the US&S paper with the note: "It is very common to find US&S guns that do not have ordnance department acceptance marks." It is common because no US&S pistol had it.

[kenhwind]

Wow! This sure is interesting, I'll probably never own a US & S 1911A1, this debate is very informative none the less.

[Scott Gahimer]

...
He does have two reference works on the 1911 pistols. They are Ken Hallock's "45 Auto Handbook" and Charles Clawson's 1993 book on "45 Service Pistols"....

Should Mr. Karow desire to have the 2003 updated 3rd edition Clawson book, feel free to contact me and I'll help him get it. There have been a lot o updates and corrections since 1993.

[doubs43]

Should Mr. Karow desire to have the 2003 updated 3rd edition Clawson book, feel free to contact me and I'll help him get it. There have been a lot o updates and corrections since 1993.

Scott, tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

[Scott Gahimer]

Scott, tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

That was easy to fix. Fire away.

[oldmanwithgun]

I think the experts are starting to answer questions concerning the pistol I purchased in 1979 from a trusted friend who said he inherited it from his uncle who told him he had purchased in as surplus and it had never been fired. Except for light oil I never gave the markings much consideration. The attached link to pictures tells the story....it has no US markings, It is all Ithaca (frame and slide match) It has the "P" in front of the rear sight, but no exploding bomb in receiver. The external sn was obviously added after manufacture and the precision sn under the left grip appears to be part of original manufacture. It is not "lunch pail" (why put numbers on a stolen gun), it is not depot trash (no military id's} I really look forward to comments, theories or whatever.
http://s867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/oldmanwithgun/oldmans45/

[Johnny Peppers]

You have formed your own opinions about what the pistol is, but you did ask for "comments, theories or whatever".
From what I can see of the pictures, it is a 1911A1 frame that has had the markings removed, and a serial number in the Ithaca range crudely added to the right side of the frame, and again under the left grip with an I (Ithaca ?) added to the end of the serial number. I think I can see the FJA on the left side, which would indicate that the pistol went all the way through inspection and acceptance, which would mean it had all the proper markings at one time.

[oldmanwithgun]

I no longer have an opinion as I always reach a dead end...on th FJA, under magnification it is not there....on the under grip sn there are not enough numbers for the Ithaca range of numbers...it is an "I", but more importantly I have read authoritative information "there are no serial numbers" except on the slide.....also there is the authoritative statements concerning all ordinance accepted weapons having the exploding bomb proof in the receiver, which is not there. In looking at the over all condition of the gun in comparsion to others actually seeing service it just doesn't fit, the reason for me submitting to be reviewed by experts on "hold back" guns....thanks for your input!!

[Johnny Peppers]

Better pictures of the left and right side would certainly help.
I guess everyone that went to the trouble to publish information on the 1911A1 considered themselves an authority on the subject, but a lot of the old information is grossly wrong.
The number underthe left grip is 1477362 I, and the 1477362 is certainly long enough for a 1944 Ithaca serial number.
The right side shows sanding marks where the original serial number would have been, with what appears to be 1447581 hand stamped there now. The slides of the Ithaca 1911A1 pistols were never serial numbered.

[Scott Gahimer]

I no longer have an opinion as I always reach a dead end...on th FJA, under magnification it is not there....on the under grip sn there are not enough numbers for the Ithaca range of numbers...it is an "I", but more importantly I have read authoritative information "there are no serial numbers" except on the slide.....also there is the authoritative statements concerning all ordinance accepted weapons having the exploding bomb proof in the receiver, which is not there. In looking at the over all condition of the gun in comparsion to others actually seeing service it just doesn't fit, the reason for me submitting to be reviewed by experts on "hold back" guns....thanks for your input!!

Welcome to the forum.

I think I have part of the mystery figured out as to why you always reach a dead end.

Perhaps you'll share the source of information for your authoritative information with us?

Specifically, please share:
1) What the Ithaca serial ranges are
2) What pistols specifically have the exploding bomb on them and exactly where
3) Where specifically serial numbers were applied and how
4) What exactly this means: "In looking at the over all condition of the gun in comparsion to others actually seeing service it just doesn't fit..." Please tell us...What exactly should it look like to fit?

I would also suggest you take a look at some of the many posts on this board regarding serial number ranges and placement.

Please tell us why you identify the serial number under the grip in your photoshop title as: "precision machined sn under left grip (matched Katys)"

Precision machined? Katys? Please explain.

[rekladan]

matched Keys [grips], perhaps?

[oldmanwithgun]

In response to the inquiry, I have posted additional pictures. In regard to authoritative sources I have included to links with the information on SN's, markings etc. I was taught in shop a machined ID, perfectly spaced, and with depth were cut with metal removed leaving clean lines and the maching was controlled by a mechanical template as opposed to stamping which displaces the metal. With both serial numbers they do not fit in the Ithaca range of serial numbers. I will concede many of the identifying marks have been punched out and the US markings could have been ground off. The links provided discuss the ordinance marks. The slide (I don't think I indicated differently) has only the Ithaca id and the "P" . I have looked at many pictures of 1911 A1's and they span the spectrum from a wear and appearance standpoint and this gun appears to never held a real job. My reason for bring it to the forum was to find a plausible explanation for it and I certainly appreciate all the info and help.
http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911infopage.htm
http://www.model1911a1.com/
http://s867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/oldmanwithgun/

[Scott Gahimer]

...In regard to authoritative sources I have included to links with the information on SN's, markings etc...

I was taught in shop a machined ID, perfectly spaced, and with depth were cut with metal removed leaving clean lines and the maching was controlled by a mechanical template as opposed to stamping which displaces the metal. With both serial numbers they do not fit in the Ithaca range of serial numbers.

I will concede many of the identifying marks have been punched out and the US markings could have been ground off. The links provided discuss the ordinance marks. The slide (I don't think I indicated differently) has only the Ithaca id and the "P" .

I have looked at many pictures of 1911 A1's and they span the spectrum from a wear and appearance standpoint and this gun appears to never held a real job...

The links you provided are Internet sites created by others who collect, or have collected. Internet sites can be created by anyone and the information provided on them is not necessarily authoritative. On some sites, information from authoritative sources are cited and credited.

When seeking information on the Internet, I rarely ever recommend a novice to rely on information provided on the Internet. Unless you know the perosn posting the information and their background, it's difficult to sort out the information. Nobody polices Internet sites to remove infromation that is not correct. Persons are entitled to their own opinions when they have a web site and they might post information which is incorrect or simply outdated.

I know the owner of www.coolgunsite.com (http://www.coolgunsite.com) and believe his site is one of the better sites online today for information. However, like any collector, I may not agree that all the information on that site is current or correct. Johnny Peppers and I are both listed, among others, on that site as contributors, but we in no way control what is posted there.

The www.m1911A1.com (http://www.m1911A1.com) site is an older site that was created by a former collector of M1911A1 pistols. When he sold his collection in 2001, he also transferred ownership of the site. Since that time, few if any updates have been made to the information there.

I would suggest Charles W. Clawson's books as an example of an authoritative source. Mr. Clawson's books are updated regularly, as necessary. His opinion on matters is deemed by most 1911 collectors today to be the "gold standard" today. There are also other good books and knowledgeable authors and collectors, but none surpass Mr. Clawson in recognition.

Your pistol's marking under the grip is a crude engraving IMO. What you seem to be describing as a precision machined ID is a Pantographed marking, which is a machine engraved marking. To be precision/machine engraved, each number or letter would be identical as is cut from the same pattern. I don't see those characteristics in the markings on your pistol.

The numbers on your pistol do not fall in the Ithaca serial ranges, but Ithaca did use (6) and (7) digit numbers in their production. The numbe under your grip falls into the 1944 Remington Rand serial range. I can't see the number stamped on the outside of your frame well enough to know if there is a space in it, or if there is another number I can't see.

The "exploding bomb" you mentioned is probably a reference to the Ordnance Department Accptance, which is actually a crossed cannons and cannoneer's belt. There were also different variations of flaming bombs used on different manufacturers at different times, and for different reasons. None of those markings appears on all the Ordnance accepted pistols made in WWII.

Your pistol has been heavily buffed to have markings removed. It is impossible to say what the markings were originally. It is also impossible to say what the wear was before the pistol was so heavily buffed.

Your pistol shows signs of having a factory-applied serial number removed from the right side of the reciever. It also shows where a Crossed Cannons acceptance was punched out. Those two things alone tell us your pistol was a military M1911A1. It wasn't something out of the ordinary. It is a refinished pistol that has had numbers re-applied. Those numbers mean nothing in regard to what the pistol was when originally manufactured.

Without written certification from the BATFE, your pistol is technically illegal to even possess. It is and was a violation of the GCA to remove the serial number. Your pistol shows all the signs of an altered pistol...not anything else.

All military M1911 and M1911A1 pistols had a serial number on the frame (receiver). Some Colt M1911A1 pistols also had slides numbered to match the receiver. None were marked on the slide only.

Once a pistol has been buffed and altered to the extent yours has, it is impossible to say anything about it's prior service. Your pistol was probably stolen at some time and was buffed to remove the U.S. property and ID markings. The numbers on there now? Who knows? But they weren't there when it left the factory originally.

[oldmanwithgun]

Thanks for your responses and while they do not answer my questions for a gun I have possessed for 30 years and purchased from a trusted friend and a member of a premier law enforcement agency, I believe the gun is legal and there are reasons for the alterations. Again thanks for your input and I do not expect any further responses as I do recognize your expertise and doubt any member would have differences with your conclusions.

[bgiven]

Thanks for your responses and while they do not answer my questions for a gun I have possessed for 30 years and purchased from a trusted friend and a member of a premier law enforcement agency, I believe the gun is legal and there are reasons for the alterations. Again thanks for your input and I do not expect any further responses as I do recognize your expertise and doubt any member would have differences with your conclusions.

Sir,

With all due respect. It really doesn't matter when you purchased, or from whom..... what does matter is what it actually is. You have been so informed by some of the foremost collectors of military M1911s and A1s in this country. Believe, or don't....it's your choice......but trust me, it certainly isn't what you think it is.

[mackey]

The "exactly 100" came from my source in our discussion last night. He said they were numbered 1-100 consecutively.

My source and Mr. Egnot worked together at USS and collaborated on researching the USS production.

I've given you the information needed to speak with my source and rather than debate me, wouldn't it make more sense to go directly to the man himself? He made it clear that he's willing to share what he has with collectors. Please.... call him and see if he has anything new to add to the story of USS 1911A1's. I've pretty much exhausted what he's told me but I'm sure there's much more that we didn't touch upon. If you'd prefer to write, I can also give you his mailing address.

As an outsider to this discussion, and an admitted novice to 1911's, I do have an opinion on the "exactly 100" vs. "approximately". As a government employee, I am certainly familiar with contractors, services and goods they provide. Also, the manner in which the Gov't solicits, inspects and scrutinizes potential contractors. This opinion is strictly based on my own work experiences, not at all involving 1911's, or even firearms in general. It is my opinion, it is entirely plausible, if not obvious, that the Gov't requested Rem Rand, US&S, Ithaca, Singer, to produce a number of pistols to be evaluated/accepted before production was approved. It seems entirely logical that whatever Gov't functionary happened to be in charge would require that number to be 100. Even today, when Gov't employees (on average) seem to lack even the most basic of common senses, it would seem perfectly reasonable to request a sample of production, sizable enough to test capability yet small enough to be achieved during wartime. Additionally, it is widely known that the Gov't use the "expiremental" designation on most if not all pre-production goods. Certainly any producer would demand that their "goods" be serialized, with whatever prefix the Govt. wished, in order to identify any possible cause or defect in their production/assembly process. Finally, still just my opinion, that after said pre-production, submittal, testing, disassembly, testing, re-assembly, more testing, return to contractor, that some of these "Exp" or even "ERRS" were returned to the contractor and possibly handed out as gifts.

In regard to the mis-matching Ithaca with ground off numbers....what could possibly explain the motive of the producer removing a serial number? Grinding off markings? The removal of a serial number, in and of itself, for whatever reason we might try to explain, is still against the law, period.

[Johnny Peppers]

The 100 US&S pistols in question were not part of any government order. Also the pistols in question are mostly built from late parts, many of which appear to be rejected parts.
As to an initial order before production was approved, the contracts were awarded and then the job of getting into production started. None of the contractors other than Colt had any machinery to build the pistols on.
As pointed out in a previous post, the ERRS Remington Rands are for the most part very late production.

[mackey]

The Gov't awarded contracts to these companies, without seeing any proof they were capable of producing? I suppose that was a necessary risk to meet wartime need. I apologize on the ERRS, didn't realize they were late production.

I'm just curious, in the production process, in what order or stages would pistols be marked? At what time or stage of production did the pistol recieve its serial number?
I would assume the frame had to pass some sort of inspection, recieve some inspection mark, before it would be assigned and stamped with its serial number? I guess I'm asking at what stage the pistol recieved its "identity"?

Is it possible that a frame recieved a serial number, then later failed some inspection for a flaw or defect, and had to repeat a production step to be corrected? I guess I'm confused because it would seem the final acceptance mark would come at the absolute end of the line, after every production step including finishing?

[Johnny Peppers]

The Gov't awarded contracts to these companies, without seeing any proof they were capable of producing?

That is exactly right. The government awarded an educational order to Singer and to Harrington & Richardson to see if they could built the 1911A1 from scratch. Singer did complete the 500 pistol educational order, but H&R did not. As previously stated, none of the other contractors had the equipment to build the 1911A1. Remington Rand was primarily a business machine manufacturer, but was awarded a contract to build the 1911A1. While Ithaca was a gun manufacturer, it probably had the most trouble getting into production, but with help from the government and other 1911A1 contractors it got into production.
The same thing happened in WWI. Contracts were awarded to companies that had never build a pistol of any kind, but the war ended and the contracts were cancelled before most even got started building the necessary equipment to manufacture pistols.

[doubs43]

The 100 US&S pistols in question were not part of any government order. Also the pistols in question are mostly built from late parts, many of which appear to be rejected parts.
As to an initial order before production was approved, the contracts were awarded and then the job of getting into production started. None of the contractors other than Colt had any machinery to build the pistols on.
As pointed out in a previous post, the ERRS Remington Rands are for the most part very late production.

I spoke to Mr. Karow again last night. He said that the examples of the EXP pistols he's seen and the one that he owned had normal USS markings on the left side but no markings to indicate ownership by the military or government anywhere. The normal position for the serial number was also blank. The EXP serial number appeared to be hand stamped at the top of the right grip frame and the "EX" part of the full serial number "EXP 66" was covered by the upper right grip panel on the example he once owned.

Then he explained that six pistols were taken from the first production pieces and sent to government inspectors who he thinks were working at the Colt factory. This was for the purpose of testing for the interchangeability of parts. Pistols from different makers were disassembled and then parts from different makers were reassembled into new guns..... mixmasters, as it were. This procedure was repeated at intervals throughout production of the USS pistols during 1943.

With regards to reference material, he stated emphatically that Clawson's book is the "Bible" in his opinion.

[Johnny Peppers]

Some of the EXP pistols show crude evidence of the original markings being removed, further evidence of rejected parts being used.

From the Egnot/Karow paper:

http://i41.tinypic.com/14neb2f.jpg