What if I don't stone?

[Mr Fixit]

I've been reading with some intrest a few threads about sears and hammers, angles and stoneing. I have a question, but first some background;

I am building a carry pistol from the frame up. I have a Caspian officers frame, and will soon have "all the rest" of the parts. I have worked on my Sistema, replacing the barrel, trigger hammer/sear/disconnector, and other parts. On the Sistema, I bought a drop in trigger pull kit from Cylinder and Slide that had a mated hammer and sear with the angles already cut and fit to each other.

Now the problem is with the new build. They don't have a hammer like I want in a kit with the mated sear. And I don't have stoning fixtures.

In other threads the "proper" angles and how to cut them were discussed in depth. My question is this:

What happens if I buy a hammer from Wilson, and a sear from someone else, and then don't do anything but slap them together?

I know not to expect a great trigger. But will it function and be safe? Do I HAVE TO stone?

I guess what I need to know is what is the range of things that I will find with a non mated hammer and sear.

Mr Fixit

[log man]

Possible, you might use an EGW sear as they are accurate in angle and squareness, and the secondary angle can be and is often done with a stone only. Giving it a try is a given.

LOG

[Mr Fixit]

Let me ask this another way.

What happens if I assemble a pistol with a new sear and new hammer, and do nothing but put them in place?

MR Fixit

[log man]

Let me ask this another way.

What happens if I assemble a pistol with a new sear and new hammer, and do nothing but put them in place?

MR Fixit
Obviously, you'll get what you've got.

LOG

[kenhwind]

If the parts came from the same source, Wilson, EGW, etc., then the tolerances should match. But not all frames are created equal.
With that said Log is correct, could be fine, could be good, could need some TLC.

[toolman]

If you're getting your hammer from Wilson, they offer, or at least they used to, a sear that's already prepped. I used one for awhile until the nose got damaged by the half cock notch, but that's another story. It seemed to be a pretty good sear.

I just received my new sear jig, but if you don't have one, a pre-prepped sear is worth a try. Why not spend about $30 on a sear jig instead of a new sear?

[dogdollar]

These matched trigger sets from Cylinder and Slide are made for you, my friend.
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=1911DI
Good luck,
DD

[John]

The worst that could happen is that you get an unsafe gun. The next up the scale is you get a safe pistol, but with a not so good trigger pull. And the best is that you get a safe pistol with a decent trigger pull. Luck should be on your side, in order to achieve this last result.

But even if you are not so lucky, don't let all those measurements and angles frighten you. I've done quite a few trigger jobs, without ever measuring anything. And I assure you they were quite decent.

We are here to help you so go ahead!

[rekladan]

If I understand correctly, you want a particular hammer design for your project, but none of the C&S trigger groups have it.

Have you tried other makers of such trigger groups? There are a couple of others EGW and Fusion come to mind. Maybe one of them has a hammer design you like, already mated to a sear.

Hope this helps!

[wichaka]

Since most sears don't have the relief angle cut, you'll get a long, with lots of creep, hard trigger pull.

[John]

Dave Berryhill also had some kits in the past.

[Mr Fixit]

Thanks guys.

Let me ask this, based on the sear jig thread;

Do I understand that a new, non-mated hammer and sear, will need to relief angle stoned/cut to function well? AND if that is correct, the relief angle can be stoned by hand without a jig?

[log man]

Thanks guys.

Let me ask this, based on the sear jig thread;

Do I understand that a new, non-mated hammer and sear, will need to relief angle stoned/cut to function well? AND if that is correct, the relief angle can be stoned by hand without a jig?
Yes.
Yes.

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr85/logpics/20090331_1.jpg

LOG

[FNULNU]

I stoned my sear sans jig earlier today using the Poor Man's Trigger Method. Logman was kind enough to post and illustration. The only variation is that I used a business card instead of the .020 gauge. My business cards are cheaper and more plentiful than the gauge, and I only have one gauge that I need to preserve.

I only polished the hammer with MAAS compound and didn't file it. I put a mirror finish on the disconnector paddle using a stone for barber's razors and MAAS. The trigger pull is slightly heavy, but certainly acceptable. I'll perfect it later when I understand the intricities of the mechanism.

The work wasn't difficult and I was able to use the tools I already had, so I suggest stoning it. It is a marked improvement from when I just threw the parts in out of the package.

[wichaka]

That .020" gauge is there for a reason, not just for show. It gets a correct relief angle cut, where a biz card will not.

[FNULNU]

That .020" gauge is there for a reason, not just for show. It gets a correct relief angle cut, where a biz card will not.
Business cards are .020" thick and suprisingly consistent.

Clarification: The magnetic business cards are usually .020". More expensive ones are .030", but folks usually go cheap.

[kenhwind]

The sear jig i have has a slot in it to cut the secondary angle. The .020 gauge is for trimming the hammer hooks. If the gauge can be used to cut the secondary angle as shown, that is good to know also.

[log man]

The sear jig i have has a slot in it to cut the secondary angle. The .020 gauge is for trimming the hammer hooks. If the gauge can be used to cut the secondary angle as shown, that is good to know also.

Actually this is the way J.K., E.B. and others suggest it be done and have done it this way also. However, I've found that this is more angle then needed as the angle itself is of no concern as it is relief and nothing bears on it. The problem is with some sears, is it thins the nose so while you're increasing the relief angle the sear is going into the hammer hook corner deeper and not decreasing the engagement as desired. The answer is a more shallow secondary angle and is more easily done on a sear jig.

LOG

[wichaka]

Depends on the sear jig used. If one uses a Brown jig, then using a thick gauge accomplishes the same thing for less cost of the tool(s).

All sear noses are thinned when applying the relief angle. If the angle is correct, it will not put the sear into the hooks, it just thins the nose.

[log man]

Depends on the sear jig used. If one uses a Brown jig, then using a thick gauge accomplishes the same thing for less cost of the tool(s).

All sear noses are thinned when applying the relief angle. If the angle is correct, it will not put the sear into the hooks, it just thins the nose.
The Brown jig cuts the primary angle and isn't designed for the secondary angle and he suggests that the secondary be done by stoning on the .020" gauge. That creates an approximate 45° relief angle which thins the sear nose more than a 20° relief angle. Of course it goes into the hook corner, the flat is what stops the sears engagement. It's a fine point and will come to fruition after a variety of sears are fitted.

LOG

[kenhwind]

I use a Bob Marvel "Hammer Sear Jig" and the angle used for the relief cut sure looks like 45 degrees. If the sear nose is set up flush and parellel to the top of the jig than it is 45 degrees.
It is a nice jig.

[log man]

I use a Bob Marvel "Hammer Sear Jig" and the angle used for the relief cut sure looks like 45 degrees. If the sear nose is sey up 90 degrees to the top of the jig than it is 45 degrees.
It is a nice jig.
If this is the fixture you're referring to http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=920&title=BOB%20MARVEL%201911%20AUTO%20SEAR%20&%20HAMMER%20JIG then that will produce a 45° secondary angle. I've and others obviously, have had that fixture and found it to be nothing, but trouble, the good thing is Brownells will refund. The problem I found with it is the set up is based on faulty geometry and the Brownell Tech support agreed with me on that point. The other thing is as soon as you take the sear off the fixture you haven't anyway to put it back exactly the same as it came off, as once you stone it the set up is different. Sorry, but the Ed Brown for $40.00 is a better jig, and the Power Custom Series I is very repeatable and adjustable and can be returned to any setting you wish.

LOG

[kenhwind]

Sorry, but the Ed Brown for $40.00 is a better jig, and the Power Custom Series I is very repeatable and adjustable and can be returned to any setting you wish.
Log;
I certainly cannot argue over the virtues of sear/hammer jigs, but it seems to me that when I purchased the "Brownells hammer and sear Kit" that the Power Custom jig was considerably more expensive.
This jig is adequate IMO.

[wichaka]

As long as the hammer/sear pins are correct to specs, along with the holes in the frame, than all is well. If not, then angles may need to be changed on the sear/hammer to compensate.

Personally I think there is an overload of info. here, for something that is fairly easy to do. Reading all this would send almost anyone running from trying to do a trigger job. It aint that tough.

[log man]

As long as the hammer/sear pins are correct to specs, along with the holes in the frame, than all is well. If not, then angles may need to be changed on the sear/hammer to compensate.

Personally I think there is an overload of info. here, for something that is fairly easy to do. Reading all this would send almost anyone running from trying to do a trigger job. It aint that tough.
This is very true learning to first ride a two wheel bike by first being taught all about balance and gravity is distracting to to job at hand. It's the actual doing it that teaches more, but the concept can help go in the right direction. The one thing that "I" think is important is to know that the goal is NOT to match sear primary face angle to the hammer hook face. As that will increase creep and pull weight.

LOG

[wichaka]

Very well put........