Colt Commander Eating Disorder

[MorkBork]

I have a Colt 1991 Commander I just haven't been able to get running 100%.

It always seems to have trouble feeding the last round or two.

I first attributed it to the Mec-Gar 8 round magazine that came with it having worn out springs. I purchased two CMC Shooting Star magazines and had similar problems. Usually I could tap the back of the slide and it would chamber.

I figured that it might be a worn out recoil spring, so I ordered the factory Colt recoil and firing pin spring from Brownells and installed them. After the new springs and tuning the extractor a bit I was able to feed FMJ much more reliably but still had issues with the last and second to last rounds hanging up every now and then.

I figured that I just needed to get a decent magazine, because the Shooting Stars felt cheap (gritty, flimsy follower, etc) and the Mec-Gar was probably well worn.

I purchased a Wilson 47D and took it to the range yesterday and had absolutely no malfunctions with FMJ in it (still sporadic issues with the other magazines and FMJ). When I loaded the 47D with HST +P, the second to last round stovepiped (live round stovepipe, not the empty). I loaded it with three more rounds and it choked up again on the second to last and last.

I mention that all I have been shooting is 230 grain Blazer Brass and Federal HST +P.

I should also mention that I had failures to lock back on the last round pretty frequently with all the magazines except for the 47D.

It really feels like the slide is coming back very hard, even with standard FMJ.

So here I am with lots of questions.

1. In most troubleshooting threads I see a cause of the live round stovepipe and failure to lock back is too much recoil spring. It is mentioned though that these issues can occasionally be caused by not enough spring. Is this a case where it could be 'not enough' (especially since with the 47D things worked fine with FMJ but choked when I used the +P)?

2. I've read a post where 1911Tuner said that Colt factory springs are often weaker than specified. Is it possible that I just need a true 18 pound spring? It seems that going any higher in a Commander is sacrilege. Should I just buy a Wolff 18 pound spring? The Colt recoil spring I got from Brownells looked like it had been sitting on the shelf forever. Should I try to get a rough measurement with a bathroom scale?

3. Should I replace the mainspring? Could a weak/light mainspring contribute to the problem? Whoever had this before me loaded it with parts off of a Gold Cup, including the MSH. Maybe the previous owner had this set up for target loads?

4. There are lots of other things that I'm not sure about that could be contributing factors. I took some pictures. The extractor looks too long. The nub on the barrel bushing is marred badly so there is a slight gap on the muzzle. I'm not sure if the barrel ramp gap is correct. When I have the slide locked back I can move the barrel in and out of the slide slightly. It goes from flush when it is all the way in to about 1/32" of a gap when the barrel is all the way out. It doesn't look like anyone took a Dremel to this though and this might be normal for this type of barrel.

EDIT: I didn't clean it before I took these pictures!! Sorry!

[MorkBork]

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[MorkBork]

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[MorkBork]

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[egumpher]

Hello,

It looks like your feed ramp is shifted to the left. My Commander's ramp isn't centered either. I see indications that the bullet is hitting the slide stop and the copper trail mark up the ramp and the ramp look shifted to the left.

Try removing the recoil spring assembly and slow cycling a round while looking at how the round transfers into the chamber. Do this without depressing the grip safety and keep your finger OFF the trigger for safety.


I needed to reshape the back of my slide stop and doctor my barrel throat to fix my problem. Your barrel has a completely different throat than my XSE. Mine is just dimpled so I had to doctor the left side a to make it work properly.

Now it feeds everything.......just a thought.
Rgds
Eric

[MorkBork]

Hello,

To me it looks like your feed ramp is shifted to the left. My Commander's ramp isn't centered either. I see indications that the bullet is hitting the slide stop and the copper trail mark up the ramp and the ramp look shifted to the left.

Try removing the recoil spring assembly and slow cycling a round while looking at how the round transfers into the chamber. Do this without depressing the grip safety and keep your finger OFF the trigger for safety.

Rgds
Eric

I didn't even notice that. I'll go check right now.

Alright. I cleaned off the frame ramp and hand cycled several rounds over and over. The new copper marks look dead center and I didn't notice any on the slide lock. Maybe there is some misalignment that occurs under recoil?

I did notice that when hand cycling just now I had had to use a lot of force randomly with just about every magazine to finish feeding. It seemed like the mouth of the case was catching on the roof of the chamber, just inside the barrel hood. It is smooth and clean inside the chamber though. :butthead:

EDIT: Could the above mean that the extractor is too tight? It almost seemed like the front was going up more than it should have.

[egumpher]

Hello,

Did you slow cycle or use the spring?

Eric

[MorkBork]

Hello,

Did you slow cycle or use the spring?

Eric

I was slow cycling.

I just loosened the extractor just a tiny bit and tried hand cycling 3 rounds of HST in the 47D slowly over and over again.

The first and last always glided in smoothly. The second to last round always jammed hard and no amount of reasonable force would chamber it.

If I cycled the slide by hand very quickly it would chamber all three of them.

When it jams on that second to last round when hand cycling it seems like the base of the cartridge is higher on the breech face than the nose of it that is partially in the chamber.

[OD*]

I didn't even notice that. I'll go check right now.

Alright. I cleaned off the frame ramp and hand cycled several rounds over and over. The new copper marks look dead center and I didn't notice any on the slide lock. Maybe there is some misalignment that occurs under recoil?

I did notice that when hand cycling just now I had had to use a lot of force randomly with just about every magazine to finish feeding. It seemed like the mouth of the case was catching on the roof of the chamber, just inside the barrel hood. It is smooth and clean inside the chamber though. :butthead:

EDIT: Could the above mean that the extractor is too tight? It almost seemed like the front was going up more than it should have.
Your feed ramp cannot shift to the left, holding the barrel by hand with out the slide on, you're putting pressure to the right just by holding it. ;)

Yes, your extractor could be tight and cause this type of mis-feed.

[MorkBork]

Your feed ramp cannot shift to the left, holding the barrel by hand with out the slide on, you're put pressure to the right just by holding it. ;)

Yes, your extractor could be tight and cause the type of mis-feed.

It seems like when I hand cycle I get such inconsistent behavior depending on which angle I hold the weapon. The magazines that are awful during live fire seem to work well when hand cycling and vice versa.

It is so frustrating not being able to be able to give clean, exact answers to troubleshoot.

Is it normal for a barrel to be able to wiggle in and out of the slide slightly when the slide is locked back (and in turn modify the frame ramp gap)?

[egumpher]

Your feed ramp cannot shift to the left, holding the barrel by hand with out the slide on, you're put pressure to the right just by holding it. ;)

Yes, your extractor could be tight and cause the type of mis-feed.

OK shift was a bad word.

The feed ramp on my Commander is cut off center or shifted to the left. This drives the bullet to the left and can hit the slide stop. I needed to reshape my barrel throat a little on the left side to allow the ammo to feed properly. It took me a long time to figure that one out.

Rgds
Eric

[OD*]

Mine is just dimpled so I had to doctor the left side a to make it work properly.
Your barrel is throated, and has the dimple.

http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/1911barrels.jpg
Original-Throated-Dimpled

[OD*]

It seems like when I hand cycle I get such inconsistent behavior depending on which angle I hold the weapon.
I don't doubt this at all, hand cycling doesn't tell you anything, except that your pistol hand cycles or it doesn't. There is nothing that replaces live fire. ;)

[OD*]

OK shift was a bad word.

The feed ramp on my Commander is cut off center or shifted to the left. This drives the bullet to the left and can hit the slide stop. I needed to reshape my barrel throat a little on the left side to allow the ammo to feed properly. It took me a long time to figure that one out.

Rgds
Eric
You need to stop messing with the pistol and send it to Colt, if they cut the feed ramp incorrectly.

[egumpher]

You need to stop messing with the pistol and send it to Colt, if they cut the feed ramp incorrectly.


But it works great now and I frankly don't want them working on it unless it is absolutely necessary. Just like a car dealership.

Rgds
Eric

[niemi24s]

Is it normal for a barrel to be able to wiggle in and out of the slide slightly when the slide is locked back (and in turn modify the frame ramp gap)?Yes. For the average 5" 1911, it'll move back & forth about 0.013" if the barrel is kept on the bed. If the link is allowed to lift the barrel up into contact with the slide, it'll move back & forth about 0.024".

Regards

[egumpher]

Why are bullets hitting the slide stop?

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This may contribute. The bullet should clear the slide stop before the case rim contacts the extractor.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/ewgewgewg/Image1.jpg

Rgds
Eric

[MorkBork]

Yes. For the average 5" 1911, it'll move back & forth about 0.013" if the barrel is kept on the bed. If the link is allowed to lift the barrel up into contact with the slide, it'll move back & forth about 0.024".

Regards

Okay, that was my biggest fear.

I went ahead and ordered a spring service pack from Wolff and a C&S extractor from Midway just so I can get things back to a baseline.

[MorkBork]

Why are bullets hitting the slide stop?

http://www.runuo.com/mark/IMG_2273small.JPG

This may contribute. The bullet should clear the slide stop before the case rim contacts the extractor.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/ewgewgewg/Image1.jpg

Rgds
Eric

I agree that there is something fishy looking about my extractor. I am as far away from a 1911 expert as one can be though.

I think that it sticks out too far at the very least.

I went ahead and ordered one.

[OD*]

Why are bullets hitting the slide stop?
Because it looks like the stud on the slide stop needs dressed down a tad.

[MorkBork]

Because it looks like the stud on the slide stop needs dressed down a tad.

Is there a link with a basic procedure for this?

[Hunter]

You could take some 600 grit sand paper and dress the slide stop lug a few .001".
That should help the clearance issues on the slide stop.

[wichaka]

Like OD said, nothing will simulate live fire.

But to check the slide stop, take the top off the gun, insert the slide stop, and insert a magazine with 4-5 rounds in it, and watch the top round to see if it contacts the slide stop.

Then slowly one by one, push them forward as if they were feeding into the chamber, and watch the round coming up under the one on top, and see if it's contacting the slide stop.

That extractor may be a MIM made piece, if my memory serves me correctly, those models were the ones that Colt experimented with MIM extractors, and disaster loomed.

After getting all the new parts installed, if you still have a problem...you can send the entire top end to me, and I'll go over it for you. Or, if you're near WA State, drop in and we'll get it fixed....no charge.

[MorkBork]

Like OD said, nothing will simulate live fire.

But to check the slide stop, take the top off the gun, insert the slide stop, and insert a magazine with 4-5 rounds in it, and watch the top round to see if it contacts the slide stop.

Then slowly one by one, push them forward as if they were feeding into the chamber, and watch the round coming up under the one on top, and see if it's contacting the slide stop.

That extractor may be a MIM made piece, if my memory serves me correctly, those models were the ones that Colt experimented with MIM extractors, and disaster loomed.

After getting all the new parts installed, if you still have a problem...you can send the entire top end to me, and I'll go over it for you. Or, if you're near WA State, drop in and we'll get it fixed....no charge.

There is definitely rubbing on the slide stop.

It was hard to tell at first because I was having difficulty sliding them out of the magazine slowly (the ejector is in the way); when I repeated the process in reverse (sliding into magazine) it was much easier to see exactly where contact was being made. It was easy to tell there was rubbing after cleaning the copper off the slide stop and pushing a few rounds through.

The amount of contact varied depending on which magazine and bullet I tried. The Wilson 47Ds had the most rubbing on the second to last round. The others either had slight rubbing throughout the entire magazine or more than usual on the last and third from last. They all rubbed badly if they were even slightly forward in the magazine. The HST is very slightly wider at the tip and rubbed slightly more. I can certainly see how all of these things can stack.

I don't know a whole lot about the history of this Colt. I know that the previous (and probably only) owner was a very old man who was sick and in a bad financial situation. The front sight is a dovetailed and has a tritium insert. There is only the faintest hint of light from it in the darkest room. I suspect that it was made sometime around 1993 and had been worked on by a gunsmith in Arizona (who is now out of business) based on the barrel markings I looked up.

I am hoping that fixing all of these little things does the trick. I really do appreciate your suggestions and your offer.

I still do suspect that the mainspring is extremely light based on how bad the muzzle flip is; I don't normally post pictures of myself, but you can really tell in these pictures from the other day. I normally carry and shoot .40 S&W and I've never had muzzle flip anywhere close to what I feel with this Colt.

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[John]

First of all, you need a barrel bushing, but that's irrelevant to your feeding problem. Or isn't it?

Second, not all pistols like Wilson magazines. Yours, being a Colt 1991 Commander, I would expect it to work better with either GI-lips magazines or hybrid lips ones. In your shoes, before anything else, I would reduce the tension of the extractor a little and try the pistol with some new, hybrid lips magazine, like the CheckMate.

For me, it is unthinkable for a Commander to malfuntion. We need to get this baby running, and I am sure we will.

[egumpher]

Second, not all pistols like Wilson magazines. Yours, being a Colt 1991 Commander, I would expect it to work better with either GI-lips magazines or hybrid lips ones. In your shoes, before anything else, I would reduce the tension of the extractor a little and try the pistol with some new, hybrid lips magazine, like the CheckMate.



I second that. I use 7-round dimpled followers exclusively with my Commander. I tried them all but ended up back to the original dimples. They are hard to find.

Rgds
Eric

[MorkBork]

First of all, you need a barrel bushing, but that's irrelevant to your feeding problem. Or isn't it?

Second, not all pistols like Wilson magazines. Yours, being a Colt 1991 Commander, I would expect it to work better with either GI-lips magazines or hybrid lips ones. In your shoes, before anything else, I would reduce the tension of the extractor a little and try the pistol with some new, hybrid lips magazine, like the CheckMate.

For me, it is unthinkable for a Commander to malfuntion. We need to get this baby running, and I am sure we will.

Who sells CheckMate magazines?

I looked at Midway and Brownells and couldn't find them; I swear I've seen them for sale before somewhere.

Locally all I can ever find are 8 round versions of Wilson, Chip McCormick, Mec-Gar, and Kimber magazines. I'm not picky about capacity though.

Also, should I replace the sear spring with the one that comes in the Wolff service pack or should I leave that one alone and only replace the others.

[niemi24s]

Who sells CheckMate magazines?They have no distributors, so you must order them directly from Checkmate.

Regards

[kenhwind]

For some reason I think that the slide stop is for a .38 Super which has a longer/deeper stud, because the mag followers have grooves in them and therefore some play. A .45 bullet (so will a 10mm) will hit a Super slide stop.
But how to determine and cure that has been posted.

E-mail Checkmate or call them very nice people IMO.

[kenhwind]

The tip of the slide stop stud should be flat, with a bevel on the rear or back.

[MorkBork]

I sanded down the slide stop nub with 1000 and then 2000 grit sand paper until there was no contact with any of the rounds. It actually took a while to do, about an hour total (sand a little, check, repeat).

The Commander is now completely disassembled and everything is soaking in CLP until I get the new springs and extractor.

This is the first time I have disassembled the MSH and it was much easier than I expected.

Can't wait to get it all back together and take it to the range to test it out.

[niemi24s]

I agree that there is something fishy looking about my extractor. I am as far away from a 1911 expert as one can be though.

I think that it sticks out too far at the very least.

I went ahead and ordered one.FWIW, an average M1911A1 with the extractor fully foward in the slide will have a 0.088" gap between the extractor's hook/claw and the breechface.

Regards

[MorkBork]

I obtained a complete set of springs and a new extractor and installed them.

It turns out I ruined my slide stop tinkering with it, so I found a Wilson locally on Sunday (sad though, Colt's bluing is so much nicer than Wilson's).

I took it to the range today and initially had only two malfunctions with FMJ when using the CMC magazines. I attributed that to wimpy magazine springs and fresh springs everywhere else. Subsequent uses of those magazines and FMJ produced no malfunctions.

When I started testing HST +P, things got crummy again. I was having last round FTF and live round stovepipes with all of my magazines sporadically. I was even having some occasional failures to lock back on empty. I looked at some of the empty cases and the rims are chewed up. I'm thinking the extractor might be fine for Blazer Brass but too tight for HST.

Time to readjust and try again!

EDIT: I should also mention that it shot beautifully. It was night and day... no flip, no snap, just that gentle shove I was hoping for.

I'm starting to feel a little burned on the purchase ($550), but I've learned so much about 1911s I think the experience alone was worth it.

[wichaka]

If you're near WA State, drop and we'll get it fixed....no charge.

[MorkBork]

If you're near WA State, drop and we'll get it fixed....no charge.

I'm in Arizona. I really do appreciate your offer. I think I will give it one more workout before I give up.

[tonka]

The only- ONLY- live round stovepipes I have ever experienced in my pistol occurred with Wilson 47Ds and +P ammo. No dimple, no controlled feed for the last round. It makes me think that that the extra recoil from +P ammo was enough to make the last round jump the extractor.

[MorkBork]

I adjusted the extractor again using an HST case instead of a Blazer Brass case.

When I put one round in a magazine to test feeding the round chambered smoothly.

Unfortunately, the hammer followed to half cock. It definitely did not follow before I replaced the springs with the Wolff service pack. I didn't notice any follow the other day either.

I read up on hammer follow. Mine didn't follow when the trigger was held back. I added tension to the middle and left leg of the sear spring.

I had to detail strip it four times to get the tension just right. I'll take it to the range later this week.

[John]

Good work. Let us know how it goes.

[Combat Controller]

Could be your slide stop is a hair too long and is causing the round to missfeed.

EDIT: Oops! Seems I missed few pages...

[toolman]

Second, not all pistols like Wilson magazines. Yours, being a Colt 1991 Commander, I would expect it to work better with either GI-lips magazines or hybrid lips ones. In your shoes, before anything else, I would reduce the tension of the extractor a little and try the pistol with some new, hybrid lips magazine, like the CheckMate.
Aother +1

I gave up on the Wilson 47D, they did the same thing yours is doing. I now use the CheckMate mags and a few old Colt mags that also have the dimpled follower.

[MorkBork]

I took it to the range today and it ran great (flawless actually, with the exception of two failures with one particular CMC magazine).

I didn't try any +P HST today. I think I'm going to find a different load for carry.

I do have an issue with one of the CMC magazines. The feed lips are very rough and the rounds don't slide in as smoothly as they do in the other magazines. It was the first magazine I tried at the range today and I had two FTFs with it. I kept using it throughout the session and didn't have any additional failures but I don't trust it anymore.

Every other magazine (including the other CMC magazine I have) ran flawlessly.

I'm very pleased overall. I feel like I can finally trust this Colt.

Thank you very much everyone for all your help. It so much easier to fix a problem when you know you have a friendly place to ask questions.