Full size guide rod and accuracy

[taliyev]

Gentlemen,

I need your experienced opinion about full size guide rods in 1911 guns. Outside of making nose of the gun just a tad heavier, does it really affect accuracy of the gun or this is just an urban legend? I am talking about just replacing short guide rod with a full size one in the Mil. Spec SA 1911-A1 without changing anything else. I know that almost all top of the line 1911 guns have those rods, but they also have more things done to them to enhance accuracy.... I realize that full size rod complicates racking of the slide using only one hand, but at the moment, accuracy of the gun in my subject of interest....

Thanks!

[Tom]

My opinion is it is an urban myth. Some people think the added weight improves follow-up targeting but I don't agree with them. Also, FLGRs add an extra level of complexity to the disassembly of the pistol.

If you want to spend money on your Springfield Mil-Spec to improve accuracy, don't buy a FLGR. Instead, buy a custom fit barrel bushing from EGW.

[lksstbls]

I've never seen a credible, substantiated claim that a full length guide rod, whether one-piece or two, has any positive affect on the pistol's function, other than adding weight to the fwd end of the pistol, as you note.

While it's true that full length guide rods are offered by the high-end pistol manufacturers, I'd be very surprised to learn that the majority of the pistols that they produce utilize some form of full length guide rod system. I think the classic example is the Springfield Pro which utilizes the g.i. short system because the government required it in their specification. The pistol was required to demonstrate 1.5" groups at 25 yds, with ammo not apparently known for its accuracy. Wilson also offers their pistols with the short system and guarantys 1" groups at the same distance. Same for Ed Brown pistols, but I'm not sure what their accuracy claim is.

Suggest you search the various forums, but specifically the Springfield Forum, for two-piece guide rod and set aside a couple of hours to read the responses.

Its really a matter of personal preference, and whateve works for you.

[garrettwc]

Urban legend. Accuracy is controlled by the barrel and how it is fitted to the rest of the gun, and to some extent how the frame and slide fit together.

At least the mechanical part.

The rest of accuracy is a human factor. Most current production pistols have more mechanical accuracy than shooters can physically shoot the gun without a rest.

[colonative01]

I added one to my AO about a year ago and haven't seen any change in accuracy at all.

[Joni Lynn]

I never noticed any change in accuracy with or without a FLGR.

[log man]

While I can't say I've had an experience it is vaguely possible if the slide to frame and barrel fit is such that lock up is variable and the guide rod and head fit well it could bring a more reliable point of aim and impact. Iffy at best. :)



LOG

[CDogg]

i used to think that FLGRs make the gun shoot more accurate. i do notice that they're harder to rack but thats it. I do like the accuracy on my Kimber just a tad bit better than my Springer but I like using my Springer more

[taliyev]

Thank you for your input. I just got Wilson Combat one piece FLGR and was wondering if I should expect any changes in behavior of my SA 1911-A1. I do not find it particularly difficult to disassemble/reassemble my gun with this guide rod. Routine is not much different, except it is a bit more difficult to push in that 'holly' spring plug. Have not shot it yet in this configuration...

[niemi24s]

Hi Taliyev:

Love your avatar: reminds me of my brother-in-law! :lh:

Regards

[garrettwc]

While I can't say I've had an experience it is vaguely possible if the slide to frame and barrel fit is such that lock up is variable and the guide rod and head fit well it could bring a more reliable point of aim and impact. Iffy at best.
Extremely iffy I would think. Let's think about how the guide rod works.

The head of the rod bears against the lower lugs on the barrel. At the point the guide rod pushes against it, the barrel is already against the VIS of the frame so regardless of the length of the guide rod, it can't push any more or less evenly against the barrel.

The other end of the guide rod rides inside the plug, it doesn't bear against it. At best all it does is keep the plug at a consistent angle, but again that is limited by the fit of the bushing.

The last possibility (and the one most folks claim) is that the guide rod keeps the slide moving in a consistent manner. A quick trip back to high school physics 101 debunks that one. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion, and in the direction they were moving until they are stopped by an equal force. If you figure that half the weight of a pistol is in the slide, then you have approx 1.5 pounds of steel moving at a high rate of speed. A guide rod that weighs only a few ounces, and is stationary is not going to be able to exert enough force to overcome the slide (unless it's the 2 piece variety and comes apart inside locking up the slide).

[log man]

Extremely iffy I would think. Let's think about how the guide rod works.

The head of the rod bears against the lower lugs on the barrel. At the point the guide rod pushes against it, the barrel is already against the VIS of the frame so regardless of the length of the guide rod, it can't push any more or less evenly against the barrel.

The other end of the guide rod rides inside the plug, it doesn't bear against it. At best all it does is keep the plug at a consistent angle, but again that is limited by the fit of the bushing.

The last possibility (and the one most folks claim) is that the guide rod keeps the slide moving in a consistent manner. A quick trip back to high school physics 101 debunks that one. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion, and in the direction they were moving until they are stopped by an equal force. If you figure that half the weight of a pistol is in the slide, then you have approx 1.5 pounds of steel moving at a high rate of speed. A guide rod that weighs only a few ounces, and is stationary is not going to be able to exert enough force to overcome the slide (unless it's the 2 piece variety and comes apart inside locking up the slide).

YES LET'S
Please open up a 1911 and you will be amazed, the guide rod head does not ride on the barrels lugs?? It rests against the frame abutment and IF that is machined square it gives a little bit of influence to the slide's orientation, which holds the plug which the rod passes through. With the spring tension pushing in opposite directions the guide rod head is firmly pressed against a stabilizing surface, the frame abutment and the end of the guide rod will always want to be in the same place in regards to the frame at both ends. Stabilization! If for instance, when in battery, if you where to pull the slide sideways the guide rod head would be lifted off one side and that would compress the spring more and the slide would return under the direction of the guide rod when released. This example for visualization only and would require a very sloppy side to side fit to see, but the hope is it gives some understanding of the narrow value a full length guide rod could have in improving accuracy.

LOG

[CDogg]

Hi Taliyev:

Love your avatar: reminds me of my brother-in-law! :lh:

Regards

:wc: taliyev
your avatar (icon) reminds me of "hunger" (the commercial on tv) :lm:

[taliyev]

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum! I am glad that you like my avatar.

[kcshooter]

If your gun is loose enough to have any benefit whatsoever from a FLGR, your gun has issues that need taken care of properly. At that point, a FLGR is a band-aid on a stab wound.

[log man]

If your gun is loose enough to have any benefit whatsoever from a FLGR, your gun has issues that need taken care of properly. At that point, a FLGR is a band-aid on a stab wound.
LOL, So that would be a yes you think it could aid accuracy in some. A band-aid is an improvement over none.

LOG

[kcshooter]

LOL, So that would be a yes you think it could aid accuracy in someNo, that's not what I meant. What I meant was, if a FLGR improves your accuracy, your gun has issues. Fix the issue.

[log man]

No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was, if a FLGR improves your accuracy, your gun has issues. Fix the issue.
Oh, sorry. So to the OPs's question, it does/can or doesn't/ can't.

LOG

[garrettwc]

YES LET'S
Please open up a 1911 and you will be amazed, the guide rod head does not ride on the barrels lugs??
That's what I get for posting technical info way past my bedtime. :o

You are of course correct. I don't know what was going through my mind. A quick review of the balance of my post (in a more coherent state) looks to accurate.

Your clarification does well to further illustrate the point though. The FLGR stabilizes against that surface. It can't give any more stabilization than was machined into the frame surface to begin with, and even then limited to the side to side play in the slide.

[log man]

Yeah, that was a good one, I was going wake up Garrett, wake up. :p

LOG

[Pappy]

As has been said many times, "It's something that a manufacturer makes to separate one from his money and does nothing."

No offense, but, if you like it, buy it....

[log man]

As has been said many times, "It's something that a manufacturer makes to separate you from your money and does nothing."

No offense, but, if you like it, buy it....
Yep, that's been said a few times. Come to think of it I can't think of a single part that isn't made for that exact same reason. LOL

LOG

[John]

Have you ever seen any FLGR manufacturer claim that these things improve accuracy? Nope. So if not even their makers suggest that, why should we believe it does?

In all my years playing with 1911s, one of the things that I've found not to affect accuracy is FLGR.

1911Tuner says that it can help a tiny bit in that department only in guns which were very loose to start with. I can't argue Tuner, he has a much greater experience than I have but as someone else said before, if your gun is so loose that its accuracy improves with a FLGR, your gun needs to see a gunsmith, presto.

[taliyev]

From all the posts I am making conclusion that FLGR is a beautification / 'cool look' part and has nothing to do with the precision of the 1911 weapon.

Now, since Mil Spec SA is not particularly tight gun, both frame/slide and barrel/bushing wise, which direction should I go to improve accuracy of the gun without scarifying its reliability, which has been good so far. Custom bushing and trigger job? I do not think I can correct fitness of the frame/slide...

I have to mention here that I am not particularly good at shooting with this gun. I am doing way better with my CZs in both 9mm and 40S&W. I am also not good with my Beretta 96, but good with Makarov and S&W 686+... I am trying to get in a better shape with this SA gun... I tried to give this gun to pro-shooters, they did not do particularly well with it either... But it is reliable.

[John]

If you are new to the 1911, don't do anything to the pistol, until you ... adapt to it.

You didn't mention what groups you get from your pistol, but if you are like me, hitting the target at 25 meters depends largely on the .... day. Some days I can do it, some I can't. Too much coffee and too many cigarettes, I guess. So shoot it from a braced position, resting your hands on something solid, and see how it does in that way.

Familiarize yourself with your new toy and then you decide what modifications to do. A good trigger around 5 lbs is essential, again if you do not know what's the weight of your trigger pull, no need to change it.

Gain experience and see.

[taliyev]

If you are new to the 1911, don't do anything to the pistol, until you ... adapt to it.

I have been owning this gun for 7 years now... So this is not new toy to me, but I am just trying to re-approach it :)

[CDogg]

Now, since Mil Spec SA is not particularly tight gun, both frame/slide and barrel/bushing wise, which direction should I go to improve accuracy of the gun without scarifying its reliability, which has been good so far. .

I got no accuracy issues with mine and all internals are still stock with just the recoil spring increased to 18.5# and a new skeletonized hammer. My rounds go where I want them to go 9 out of 10 times if Im not moving anywhere from 15 yards or closer. If its not shooter error, try a match grade barrel with a custom fitted bushing. Thats gonna set you back about $230

[John]

Oh sorry, erroneous assumption.

So how are your groups?

Figuring out what to do to improve accuracy is hard without seeing the actual pistol. Usually, the best thing is (as CDogg said) to have a smith install a match barrel and bushing. Some times a tight bushing is enough, if the barrel is OK.

[kcshooter]

Like Cdogg, my accuracy is well acceptable from my MilSpec. Mine is also completely stock, except for MSH and I bobbed the hammer a bit.
How inaccurate is it? If there is an issue, my suggestion before dropping a bunch of money on it would be to return it to Springfield, they have a history of really taking good care of customers and their firearms.