Video of Series 80 FPS alleged "flaw"

[VFRpilotJim]

Hi All, I just wanted to post a link to a video for all of you to ponder and comment on. The person who made it claims that the FPS in his series 80 pistol has rendered his gun useless FOUR times. He "demonstrates" the malfunction with a disassembled pistol in the video. I also want to say that I have never had a problem with the Series 80 system myself, and the LAST thing I'm going to do is bash that design. This just made me go "hmmmm..." and I thought others might want to investigate it too!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuxH_FLWDtg

enjoy... er.. maybe not
Jim

[gfavaron]

Interesting. Thanks Jim.

[garrettwc]

The problem with YouTube is that anybody with the cash to buy a video camera can become an instant expert.

There are so many things wrong in that video I don't know where to begin.

[kenhwind]

First off I couldn't finish watching that baloney.
The firing pin safety was designed to prevent the gun from being discharged if it was dropped. Colt and the Government were both aware of this issue.
The firing pin CANNOT move any further forward after being fired because there is an empty case in the breech.

"There are so many things wrong in that video I don't know where to begin"
I do don't watch it: Hogwash IMHO

[VFRpilotJim]

The problem with YouTube is that anybody with the cash to buy a video camera can become an instant expert.

There are so many things wrong in that video I don't know where to begin.

Hi garrettwc,

Oh, I do realize that youtube is full of Johnny know-it-alls, and I don't put much if any stock in this guy's expertise. My only area of curiosity with this is if ANYONE else can corroborate even one other instance of the firing pin being locked in the forward position by the FPS. My suspicion is that noone can. This, of course, would reveal his claim of witnessing this four times as boloney indeed. Anyone?

Jim

[garrettwc]

The firing pin CANNOT move any further forward after being fired because there is an empty case in the breech.
Along those same lines, did you notice how far forward the firing pin was? It looked to be protruding half an inch or more? I don't even think the firing pin can move that far forward in the pin hole can it?

Wonder what the possibilities are that his 4 "occurrences" were after another one of his demos? Per chance did he install his small diameter Springfield firing pin in his Colt by mistake?

The firing pin safety was designed to prevent the gun from being discharged if it was dropped.
And it was designed in the 70's and added to the design in 1980, hence Mk IV Series 80. It had been in use for over 10 years without incident prior to the 1991 series guns that this goober says were first to use it.

[garrettwc]

My only area of curiosity with this is if ANYONE else can corroborate even one other instance of the firing pin being locked in the forward position by the FPS. My suspicion is that no one can.
Sorry I didn't address this part of your question. I was typing while you were posting.

I shoot with a group of LEOs and military guys (current and former) about 80 percent of us shoot a 1911 in one form or another. With thousands of rounds downrange between us, I have NEVER seen this, or even heard of it before now.

I suspect there is more to the story than he tells in the video (see my firing pin idea, above).

One thing that also just occurred to me. If the firing pin was sticking that far through the breechface, the round couldn't even chamber. The case rim has to slide up the breechface and under the extractor. In his described event, the case rim should be caught against the protruding firing pin locking up the gun.

[kenhwind]

Please see "A Refrigerator Story" page 63 The COLT .45 Automatic; A shop manual; Jerry Kuhnhausen
The story is interesting and too long to copy. It pertains to the Series 80 FPS.

[RickB]

You can assemble a S80 gun with the firing pin forward of the plunger, and the former will then protrude noticeably from the breechface, but, of course, you can't load the gun when it's in that condition.

[garrettwc]

Please see "A Refrigerator Story" page 63 The COLT .45 Automatic; A shop manual; Jerry Kuhnhausen
The story is interesting and too long to copy. It pertains to the Series 80 FPS.
Thanks for the tip. I'm going to have to check that when I get home.

[kenhwind]

Gee I just tortured myself watching this video. What he states about the firing pin going forward during recoil CANNOT happen. Therefore what he describes CANNOT happen. With a casing in the breech the firing pin CANNOT move fprward enough for the firing pin stop to drop. No facts whatsoever, he doesn't even know the nomenclature of the parts.
As posted, the firing pin safety was installed because there is an issue with the 1911 being able to discharge if dropped on the muzzle. I dropped one and it sheared off the safety lock. It certainly could have gone off, if loaded.

[Hunter]

That was good enough for me to sign up for an account and post under Hunter0924.

[kenhwind]

I was going to, but passed, I'll have to check out your comment.
Good post, you said it better than I would have.

[KPSquared]

What about what he said about the grip safety.

[Hawkmoon]

As posted, the firing pin safety was installed because there is an issue with the 1911 being able to discharge if dropped on the muzzle. I dropped one and it sheared off the safety lock. It certainly could have gone off, if loaded.
I would not say there was an "issue" with the 1911 being able to discharge if dropped on the muzzle. Various people claimed it could happen, but I don't believe there were ever any instances when it DID happen, and certainly not with a pistol that wasn't defective. I believe it was 1911Tuner who sacrificed a slide and conducted a drop test down a length of pipe. Whoever did the test, I think they dropped it from a height of up to fifteen FEET and couldn't make it go off. The "issue" was one of perception rather than reality.

[kenhwind]

Well OK I will not disagree, but I did read somewhere that it was a concern that the M-9 have a firing pin block in it, because of this issue. I couldn't verify a source in court.
If it was not an issue at all please expalin the Swartz safety from the 30s.
Jeff Cooper said they had to drop the gun 300 times to gey it to discharge.
And yes I know about the extra strength firing pin spring.
At least my comments are more accurate than some cop pistol whipping some body.

[auto45]

Hate to say it, but it happened to me once...as described.

But, the reason it happens is because the timing is off, the FP plunger is contacting the FP, causing nicks/burrs on the plunger. It can hold the FP forward. My FP stop dropped halfway down, tighter fit than his I guess.

His "fix" will not work IMO. The frame lever is not lifting the plunger high/early enough to let the FP go forward unimpeded. Higher lift lever or gunsmith time.
He should also replace the FP, might be bent now...IMO.

I don't agree with him on the plastic housings or the grip safety.

[kenhwind]

But it is obvious from the video that he is clueless. Seven different guns and this has never happened to me. What he describes and how he describes it cannot happen.
What your describing is caused by dry firing the gun, which slams the firing pin into the firing pin plunger. He does not state that in the video.

While I'm posting here guestion:
What is the real reason for the firing pin safety block? Input requested from our staff.

[RickB]

I finally was able to watch part 2 (still haven't been able to see part 1), and I notice the gun displays just about the biggest idiot scratch I've ever seen; maybe evidence of the reviewer's true 1911 experience/expertise?

[kenhwind]

Just watched part 2, no comment I don't want to get banned today!

[Hunter]

The original poster deleted my comment and sent me a nasty email, calling me juvenile names.

[kenhwind]

The original poster deleted my comment and sent me a nasty email, calling me juvenile names.
Well that explains why there are no dissenting views about his video /cartoon.
His video insults my intelligence.
In Part 2 he uses an obviously none Colt mag and blames the gun.

[garrettwc]

Please see "A Refrigerator Story" page 63 The COLT .45 Automatic; A shop manual; Jerry Kuhnhausen
The story is interesting and too long to copy. It pertains to the Series 80 FPS.
Great read. Any similarity to the refrigerator story and the guy in the video is purely coincidental. :p

I finally was able to watch part 2 (still haven't been able to see part 1), and I notice the gun displays just about the biggest idiot scratch I've ever seen; maybe evidence of the reviewer's true 1911 experience/expertise?
That sir, may be the understatement of the week.

The original poster deleted my comment and sent me a nasty email, calling me juvenile names.
No surprises there. Sorry I missed your post though.

In Part 2 he uses an obviously non Colt mag and blames the gun.
He also goes on to list a few of the "many modifications" he has done to the Colt (and his reloaded ammo) to make it run the way he thinks it should. Notice the severe and high 3-point jam he displays. He explained "I made my reloads longer so they would get deeper into the chamber instead of catching on the edge of the barrel" :rolleyes:

This guy is foolish to the point of being dangerous. Too bad YouTube doesn't have a "report bad post" button.

[Hunter]

I did flag his video.

[OD*]

The guy's a moron, we went through this garbage on INGunOwners 2 weeks ago http://ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/31398-how_many_have_seen_this_witha_colt_1991_a.html

Check out vid two and how he checks his extractor. Anybody with a keyboard and a video camera is an expert now.

[OD*]

And it was designed in the 70's and added to the design in 1980, hence Mk IV Series 80. It had been in use for over 10 years without incident prior to the 1991 series guns that this goober says were first to use it.
FWIW Garrett, the FPS intro'd in 1983, you will find Series 70s with the "80" serial number prefix up to '82/'83 (that doesn't imply the prefix means it's a Series 80, it doesn't, it is just a numerical prefix).

[kenhwind]

The guy's a moron, we went through this garbage on INGunOwners 2 weeks ago http://ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/31398-how_many_have_seen_this_witha_colt_1991_a.html

Check out vid two and how he checks his extractor. Anybody with a keyboard and a video camera is an expert now.

Reviewed that other forum, some good posts (mostly yours) I think I'll stay here more peacefull IMO.

I certainly could live without the FPS block in a 1911, but if its there it should stay there.
My 1991A1 Combat Commander was one of the nicest shooting 1911 type pistols I have owned and I have had quite a few pass through my life. It was certainly shot enough to have malfunctioned if it was going to.

Videos and stories like these that have no facts or pertinent info, as well lack of knowledge really annoy me. I couldn't watch it the first time, I had to go back and re-watch it.

[OD*]

Thanks for the kind words, Ken.

I know exactly what you mean, sometimes these trunk monkeys just make you want to pound your head against a wall. Then you have people with absolutely no first hand experience on the Colt Series 80s "claiming" the guy made valid points, the blind leading the blind.

And the second point you made I agree with completely too, M1911.ORG is home, and we have some of the most knowledgeable people on the internet as members.

[paul45]

I stopped watching after the poor fool cocks the hammer while holding and keeping his left hand over the muzzle.....

I have enough of my own issues than to add to them, ie; watching the village idiot try and give lessons.

[VFRpilotJim]

The original poster deleted my comment and sent me a nasty email, calling me juvenile names.

Well, Hunter, since you were offered insults instead of intelligent reasoning, that settles everything! I am 100% comfortable with my Series 80 pistols!

Jim

[garrettwc]

I know exactly what you mean, sometimes these trunk monkeys just make you want to pound your head against a wall. Then you have people with absolutely no first hand experience on the Colt Series 80s "claiming" the guy made valid points, the blind leading the blind.
Trunk monkeys riding zebras (to borrow a term from Tuner). :p

I stopped watching after the poor fool cocks the hammer while holding and keeping his left hand over the muzzle.....
oh but Paul you missed the best part. Later he chucks the gun up in a vise (he explains that he needs a free hand to operate the video camera), he then proceeds to hand cycle live rounds through the gun to show us rubes how the extractor should work. :eek:

[Mhanis]

But he did make a point to tell us "DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!"

[OD*]

Trunk monkeys riding zebras (to borrow a term from Tuner). :p
I hadn't heard that one, I like. :D

[VFRpilotJim]

Hey guys, after reading more of this clown's material on youtube, it's obvious that his agenda is Colt-bashing, and trying to steer people to SA. He's 22 and is convinced that he knows everything about everything. I should have checked him out a little better before I even posted the link to his puke, and for that I'm sorry, since I know feathers got ruffled over something intentionally illegitimate.

Sorry for the mayhem!

Jim

[OD*]

Hey, no problem Jim. These wannabe gunsmiths should be shown for what they are, keeps them from hurting others.

[garrettwc]

I'm sorry, since I know feathers got ruffled over something intentionally illegitimate.
No ruffled feathers here. You shared something that didn't make sense to you, and it sparked a discussion by knowledgeable and reasonable people. Everyone (except the guy who made the video) learned something from the exchange.

[kenhwind]

Hey, no problem Jim. These wannabe gunsmiths should be shown for what they are, keeps them from hurting others.

Absolutely! Did you all notice that there were no negative comments posted about that video only "anti 1991A1" bashing so to say. He has people thinking that the Series 80 FPS is some sort of fly-by-night defective improvement.

I just so happened to be able to read Hunter's post on there, and all he did was correct some nomenclature, some cycling facts, and refer to page 63 Kuhnhausen, etc. No flaming, I do not think Hunter would, and the Jerk has the audacity to E-mail him with some unfriendly comments.

[Hawkmoon]

Sadly, such "wisdom" does not come only from youngsters. John may recall that, several years ago, we had a post from a "gentleman" who claimed he was an NRA-certified handgun instructor. He posted that he had observed many "defective" Series 80 Colts coming into his classes. They were "defective" because ... the hammer would drop from the half-cock position when the trigger was pulled.

Now, the fact he labeled them "defective" is bad enough. What was far worse (at least, in my estimation) was that he said he allowed students who owned such guns to take his classes only after he had "repaired" the pistols!

Needless to say (I hope), the ensuing discussion did not result in the resounding chorus of "Attaboys" our hero no doubt anticipated. The upshot is that he's no longer with us, but at this point I don't recall whether he simply resigned in a huff, or if he became so abusive that we had to ban him.

They are out there. The final scary thing about the "defective" Series 80 stuff is that I reported the facts of the situation to the NRA. They were totally unconcerned that one of their certified instructors was out there "repairing" guns that weren't broken. They simply told me they had checked, and that he was certified so he wasn't using their name improperly.

YIKES!

[egumpher]

Boy, and all this time I "liked" the nylon MSH because it was lightweight, durable and resistant to nearly all chemicals. I guess I know better now.

Rgds
Eric

[1911Tuner]

Therefore what he describes CANNOT happen. With a casing in the breech the firing pin CANNOT move fprward enough for the firing pin stop to drop.

Yes it can. I've seen the same problem that he's describing several times, though the stop doesn't normally fall all the way out and allow the firing pin and spring to leave the gun. Most of the time, it drops about a quarter-inch and catches on the hammer...stopping the gun in its tracks.


Colt Series 80 pistols all have a short, soft firing pin spring...and this is precisely what causes the problem. I've seen it happen with spankin' new Series 80 Colts with less than 200 rounds down the pipe. The cure is simple. Install a standard-length spring.

To drop the other shoe...whenever the Series 80 system isn't timed correctly, the stronger spring can lead to misfires sooner or later. To check for a timing problem, remove the plunger from the slide and look closely at it to see if it has the appearance of light splines on the top edge above the smaller diameter. If they're there, it means that the plunger lever isn't lifting the plunger clear of the firing pin...and it will cause a problem eventually. The round count before the trouble starts depends on how badly it's out of time.

The rest of his rant seems to be pretty misguided and misinformed. The nylon...not plastic...mainspring housing is a non-issue. I've never seen one fail, and only heard of one...and it was on a Kimber.

[kenhwind]

Well I cannot get the firing pin stop out of my Defender with an empty caseing in gun with the barrel partially forward and hanging on the extractor. "The way he describes it" is inaccurate IMO.
I've read enough of your posts not to disagree with you. And several times isn't all the time like he wants us to believe.
And I have had the firing pins stop slide down on a 1911 without the FPS, so is this really a Series 80 issue or a firing pin spring issue?
The timing issue I understand.

[kenhwind]

I was just looking at the only Series 80 gun I have, and I can understand what Tuner is getting at which could be caused by a dirty firing pin plunger or spring.
This happened to a friends Kimber, which is different I know, but crud caused the malfuntion.
What is described in the video cannot happen, the firing pin is not going to get locked forward sticking out of the breech face.

If I was an expert on these matters I would make my own video. :rolleyes:

My dog can count Milkbones can yours? ;)

[1911Tuner]

so is this really a Series 80 issue or a firing pin spring issue?

It's a firing pin spring problem. The short, soft springs in the Series 80 Colts just make it more likely to occur...but I've seen it happen on pre-80 and old GI pistols with badly worn springs.

I can understand what Tuner is getting at which could be caused by a dirty firing pin plunger or spring.

Dirt could probably make it more likely to occur...but I've seen it on nearly new pistols with a low round count.

[kenhwind]

Well with seven different pistols some of which were shot a lot I've never seen this. The system seem to be a good one IMO.
Tuner that video made me cringe, big time.
The number one cause of firearm failures is lack of maintenance, this we know.
What are your views on dry firing a Series 80 pistol? I have a firing pin plunger that is marked up quite bad, I do not know where it came from, but it seems to me that the dings in it are made by the firing pin retracting.
Contrary to popular belief the 1911 was not perfect, but it sure is close IMO.

[garrettwc]

I've read enough of your posts not to disagree with you. And several times isn't all the time like he wants us to believe.
Same here, but I will ask a question because I don't understand. If the firing pin is protruding through the breechface as the guy in the video describes, why doesn't the gun jam? Shouldn't it be blocking the case rim from rising up the breechface?

[OD*]

If the firing pin is protruding through the breech-face, I don't see how the case could get past it.

[1911Tuner]

What are your views on dry firing a Series 80 pistol? I have a firing pin plunger that is marked up quite bad, I do not know where it came from, but it seems to me that the dings in it are made by the firing pin retracting.

No worse than one without the Series 80 system...provided the release timing is right.
The damage comes from the pin as it moves forward after the hammer hits it...not as it retracts. Retracting, it wouldn't have enough energy to damage the plunger.

Garrett...If the pin sticks forward, it will tie up the gun because the feeding round can't move up on the breechface. The Video King is out to lunch on that one. The FP stop doesn't fall because the pin gets stuck. It falls because the FP spring is too weak...coupled with a loose FP stop.

I've seen firing pins get stuck forward. Sometimes it's crud built up in the channel...sometimes it's a broken spring...sometimes it's peening around the port caused by the case head slamming into the breechface in recoil. The last one was prevalent mainly on old pistols with unhardened slides...which was why Colt added the hardened insert in 1936. After they started fully hardening the slides in 1946, the insert was discontinued, though there were some leftover service slides with the inserts remaining in military armories for several years.

You can still peen the FP hole, but it takes many tens of thousands of rounds before it will start to cause problems with the firing pin.

[kenhwind]

No worse than one without the Series 80 system...provided the release timing is right.
The damage comes from the pin as it moves forward after the hammer hits it...not as it retracts. Retracting, it wouldn't have enough energy to damage the plunger.
Hmm of course it wouldn't.

I think I figured it out now:
The trigger is pressed, the hammer falls hits firing pin.
Firing pin is slammed forward, cartridge is shoved forward against chamber.
Ignition.
Everytrhing starts rearward and the firing pin spring is under compression as the slide retracts, ejects empty caseing, firing pin able to move forward because of light spring.
Slide stop falls out. oops! Firing pin stop falls out

Now this I comprehend, the video I do not, or will not. Gee that ain't what he says in the video.

[1911Tuner]

That pretty much sums it up. Note that the case doesn't remain in hard contact with the breechface once extraction begins. The gap will allow the FP to remain forward unless the spring is strong enough to reset it and keep it there. The phenomenon is much like "Valve Float" in auto engines...when the cam is spinning so fast that the valve lifters can't stay in contact with the cam lobes.

[garrettwc]

Garrett...If the pin sticks forward, it will tie up the gun because the feeding round can't move up on the breechface. The Video King is out to lunch on that one. The FP stop doesn't fall because the pin gets stuck. It falls because the FP spring is too weak...coupled with a loose FP stop.
Right there with ya. ;)

I knew the FP stop had to be a fit/tension issue. I'd venture to say that's part of the problem the Video King talks about when he says the Colt had extractor problems. Maybe some clocking going on as well?

[RickB]

It was also interesting that he made a point of how, after the firing pin stop had dropped out, you would lose the firing pin and spring if you racked the slide and pulled the trigger on a S80, suggesting that it is somehow better to lose the firing pin and spring at the same time you lose the firing pin stop, as would be the case for a non-80?

[garrettwc]

Well I put three posts in his comments (and he actually left them).

I explained that it was a weak FP spring and stop, not the series 80 parts. He admitted to the weak spring, and that the gun did jam as we suspected. He even admitted that non-FPS pistol can have the same problem. But he countered with it being "nearly non existent" with a Springfield because the light titanium pin doesn't need a heavy FP spring. :rolleyes:

He definitely has a bias towards Springfield, but at least the light (a dim one) is starting to come on.

[1911Tuner]

I knew the FP stop had to be a fit/tension issue.

Well...All ordnance-spec FP stops are pretty lose and will fall out if the firing pin doesn't reset quickly enough to recapture'em. The spring is the main problem.

Back in the Orange Gunsite days when the Smithy's armorers were building GSPs to order...part of the package was a press-fit firing pin stop...I suppose for shooters who were too lazy to replace a FP spring every 8-10,000 rounds. It was essentially a 25-dollar solution to a 2-dollar problem...but to each his own.

[garrettwc]

Well...All ordnance-spec FP stops are pretty lose and will fall out if the firing pin doesn't reset quickly enough to recapture'em.
Really? I figured it was at least a friction fit like the barrel bushing.

[kenhwind]

OK I need a good slide stop, I will acknowledge this.
What do, or should I already know, about the firing pin springs.
My two older GMs have the heavy spring in them, and have for years, they have new ones now.
My Defender any recommendations, or should I just consider getting some spare firing pin springs.

I'm kinda glad that I'm not the only one who thought this clown was out to lunch.