Generic FTF question

[Sidewinder6]

Not Nighthawk specific but since I am shooting one, I am asking like minded individuals.

2K rounds, and a round sticks in the top of the chamber and fails to go into battery. Racking the slide does not force the round in, or eject. Drop the mag and the round is stuck in place until I lock open the slide and finger the round one way or the other. Neither is easy. If I slam the round into battery the gun cycles. If I finger the round out of the chamber, it is discarded because it is shortned and no longer suitable for a magazine.

I am thinking Ogive, dirt as top 2 canidates. Anything else? ?? Happened with JHP match ammo as well as ball. Springs?

Thanks for your trouble shooting suggestions.

[garrettwc]

You are describing a 3-point jam. Take a look at the notes in this post:
http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=248480&postcount=2

Some more information would help, like which round in the magazine is it? Is it always the same round?

[niemi24s]

From your description (especially the part about the bullet getting set back into the case) I'm guessing:

• You're using extra capacity magazines
• The jam occurs mostly with the first few rounds out of the magazine
• You just recently installed an 18lb recoil spring

How good a guesser am I?

Regards

[Sidewinder6]

CMC Power 8's and they are new.

Happens most (not all) of the time on the top round regardless of how the round is racked. It is like the round wedges itself and will stay after locking the slide open and dropping the mag. I have to use a finger to push the round into the chamber.

I had this happen once in the middle of a mag although not as severe and I was able to rack the round out.

I originally posted this in the Nighthawk forum because I was interested in understanding how THEY set up their guns and the springs etc and was move here but titled this in such a way that I got a nasty gram and points.

I guess I will buy a spring kit and play around. Thanks for your responses and help.

[garrettwc]

I guess I will buy a spring kit and play around.
Don't do that yet. You could end up making the problem worse. Did you change anything else other than the CMC Power 8's?

Do you have the same problem with the mags that came with the gun?

Also, when you are "pushing the round into the chamber with your finger, is the rim of the case under the extractor claw partially hooked, or is it ahead of the extractor?

[Sidewinder6]

Not internals. Did change the rear sight. I dont consider that in the scope of this discussion.

I bought NH mags from the offer that comes with a new gun plus got two with it. (One blue and one stainless.)

The stainless mags that I choose, I am not at all happy with and have relegated them to training and teaching using orange rounds. I think the followers are mushy and subject to canting the round and had immediate malfunctions right out of the box.

The blue steel mag is my barney mag.

Had a few CMC's so I stocked up so I have about 15 now and they seem to run much better.

When I have the FTF, I lock the slide back and drop the mag so the extractor was already removed so what I need to do is take come quiet time at the range this afternoon and recreate the problem. I will bring the camera and see if circumstances allow better documentation.

I do know the round when it comes out is shorter but I consider the FTF may have caused the problem rather than the other way around. BUT, I will drop the assumptions and try for better data.

[John]

When I have the FTF, I lock .....

Please stop calling this a FTF (Failure to feed). If the nose of the feeding round is even partially inside the chamber, then you have a FTRB (Failure To Return to Battery). Two different animals.

[garrettwc]

OK Sidewinder. Pics would definitely help along with taking notes of what the gun is doing. Try to answer the question in my last post.

Also, read the info at that link I posted originally. Try the extractor test it mentions if you can. Also, when you release the slide to let it chamber a round does it sound like one smooth motion (i.e. thwack) or is it two distinct sounds like ker-chunk.

My guess is that you are going to see 2, or possibly all 3 of the issues I have asked about.

[niemi24s]

I do know the round when it comes out is shorter but I consider the FTF may have caused the problem rather than the other way around. BUT, I will drop the assumptions and try for better data.The 3 point jams you are experiencing are probably the result of two things: your handloads (I'm just guessing they're handloads) have a poor grip on the bullet; the extra capacity magazines allow the top round to nosedive badly when it's stripped from the magazine.

If so, the combination of these two things is a recipe for a 3 point jam. Here's why.

The top few rounds in any magazine - and expecially an extra capacity magazine - have little or no support at their front ends and when the slide hits the case head to strip the round, the front of the round gets torqued downward more than normal. When this round hits the frame feed ramp, the bullet should glance upward briskly on it's way to the camber, but if the case doesn't have a good grip on the bullet the bullet gets shoved back into the case. While getting shoved back, the slide slows down more than it should plus the bullet doesn't glance upward so briskly. All this allows the bullet to hit the bottom of the barrel ramp which moves the barrel upward causing the 3 point jam - with the round stuck between the top of the chamber, the top of the barrel ramp and the breechface.

There's lots of things that can contribute to all of this, some being:

• Rough breechface
• Poorly shaped extractor
• Extractor tension too high
• Weak magazine springs
• Weak, thin-walled cases
• Case sizing die too big
• Case neck expanding plug too big
• Case neck flared too much
• Bullet OD too small
• Case mouth excessively crimped

Will the gun jam with good quality (not el-cheapo) commercial 230gn ball ammo fed from a full good quality 7 round magazine such as a genuine Colt magazine?

[Sidewinder6]

Garrettwc- Niemi24s; Thank you for your constructive suggestions. I shot 150 rounds yesterday and did not experience the problem. But I cleaned and lubed the gun with grease, ran it wet.

In my OP, I suspected the ammo since it is new match ammo by a national company that supplies the AMU and FLETC and I suspect is a bit light for the spring combo on my Nighthawk. It is 185gr JHP with a flat ogive rather than rounded. But, I have experienced the problem with ball in 185 just not as frequently. 230 ball = no problem.

One thing I have noticed is this 'match' ammo is less than the minimum legnth by almost 1/100th" and below spec.

I plan on shooting more this weekend and afterwards, will have a close look at the extractor.

Again, I appreciate you help.

[garrettwc]

You're welcome. Happy to help.

You're learning the secret. 90% of all the legendary problems alluded to the 1911 boil down to three things:

bad extractors
bad magazines
bad ammo

eliminate those and you should be a happy camper.

[niemi24s]

One thing I have noticed is this 'match' ammo is less than the minimum legnth by almost 1/100th" and below spec.Not sure what you're referring to as the "minimum length" for for 185gn match ammo, but the COAL's for Remington Targetmaster and Western Super Match 185gn JSWC are 1.160". My H&G 130 LSWC handloads are loaded to about 1.155".

I suspect the ammo you've got is not short because it's put together wrong - it's short just because the bullets have short noses. Short ammo such as this feeds best from magazines with early releasing lips.

Regards.