Help with newly aquired a WWII M 1911

[lostInBurbs]

I just received a M1911 as collateral for a loan to a friend...looks like there's no way he's paying me back so I'm interested in finding out more about this guns details.

I'm told it was my friends grandfathers WWII service pistol. On one side it says "United States Property M 1911 A1 US Army No. 2388818". It has a Colt inlayed into the grip but interestingly on the other side of is engraved "Remington Rand Syracuse NY".

Can anyone tell me if this is a WWII issue pistol and what it might be worth to a collector?

Thanks very much.

Wayne

[lostInBurbs]

Followup: Checked another site that tracked serial #s and indeed it is a WWII era pistol, except it was manufactured by Remington Rand, not Colt...yet I have a colt grip for sure...can some explain? Did the mix and match back then? Also, still want to know what it is worth

[RickB]

Do you mean the wooden grips have Colt medallions set in them? G.I. pistols had no marking on the frame to indicate who made them. If the frame is stamped with a RR serial number, and the slide has the RR name and address, then it's a RR. Value varies greatly with "originality" and condition. "Originality" really means that the parts are all of the proper era, finish, etc., as opposed to actually being original to a particular gun. IT is possible to identify such things as how many serrations are supposed to be on the heel of the butt, is the trigger of machined or stamped construction, is the finish blued or parkerized, etc., and thereby determine if the gun is "original" or what is often termed a "mixmaster", which is an assemblage of parts that may or may not be of the proper type corresponding to that gun's serial number. Your gun is worth anywhere from $500-$1500, depending on these factors. Can you post some pics, or at least more detailed description?

[lostInBurbs]

RickB: Thanks for reply. As far as I know, this gun has been an heirloom and just handed down from my friends grandfather who passed away about 3 years ago. Indeed, the grip has the Colt medallian right in the center of the stock.

I'm really not a gun expert but I assume blue steel is the greyish in color, while parkerized is more toward black; it is definately black not grey. If I could upload a picture I would; how do I do that as it says I can not post attachments. Or I can email directly to you. Thanks again.

[stans]

Parkerizing often starts out as black or grayish in color, but often turns green with time and exposure to oil and grease.

To upload a picture, you need to open an account with an image host such as picturehangar.com. You upload your picture to their server, then copy the link to you picture and past the link in the pop up box that appears when you click the "insert image" icon here.

[Hunter]

When Colt was suppling the military and the demand grew other companys also made the 1911 such as Remington like you have and Winchester to name a couple. The pistol is worth having and I would not make the mistake if I were you to let it slip away. Once something like that is gone good luck finding another one.

[lostInBurbs]

Thanks for the replys. I'll try to include the pictures here but it may not work. If not simply go to http://lostinburbs.tripcom.com/mintzmania (btw picturehanger.com is a real picture hanger company)

I have three pics #1) was an attempt at picture of the trigger. #2) is the side with the serial # and #3) is the the other side. You will note the notches midway down the upper half of the gun. I cant tell if the metal chipped somehow or what (though I dont see how that could happen). Anyway, clearly the colt emblem is on the stock and the rest made by remington (at least I think the rest). Also picture #3 shows some kinda gunk on the metal about 1/2 way down to the end of the gun; I presume that just needs a good cleaning...

Thanks for everyones inputs.

http://lostinburbs.tripod.com/mintzmania/index.album?i=0
http://lostinburbs.tripod.com/mintzmania/index.album?i=1
http://lostinburbs.tripod.com/mintzmania/index.album?i=2

[lostInBurbs]

should be ... http://lostinburbs.tripod.com/mintzmania

[Hunter]

Beautiful 1911. I think it's a keeper.

[lostInBurbs]

Thanks Hunter, any idea why it has a Colt stock? Does that mean it was replaced? In looking at it is sure looks 1/2 a century old...like warn in all the right places...

[Hunter]

There are a couple of reasons why it has Colt grips. I would doubt they are original but could of been changed in the armory that was responsible for the maintence on that 1911 or a private individual could of changed them as well.While in service if the original grips became unservicable they would of been changed out for what was on hand which could of been Colt grips(in stock or off a Colt that was unservicable) That would be a field expedient repair. I would imagine there is a good story along with that.

[stans]

Those are stock Colt of fairly recent vintage, but definitely not military stocks.

[lostInBurbs]

Well that's a bummer...is it worthwhile to try to find military grips from that erra? Are they expensive? I'll have to search the Remington page (other models I think).

[Doran]

simpsonltd.com has the correct grips for your pistol. Cost $10 and they pay the shipping.

[lostInBurbs]

Thanks Doran, I'm quite the novice, but having new grips, what does that do to the value of the gun? Is it still 500-1500? If you follow the trail I started w/aquiring the gun for some cash as colaterol. I'm probably going to sell it soon enough because honestly, I don't know if I'm a big gun collector type. Thanks again.

Wayne

[stans]

It's a good looking gun, almost too good looking. The gray color of the parkerizing almost makes me think it has been refinished, which might also explain the modern commercial stocks.

[jslobum]

I'm with Hunter, this is one I would'nt let get away at least until I verified authenticity.

[Hunter]

You could have luck finding the original grips at a gunshow or the shotgun news. Also try ebay and gunbroker.com but be careful buying from them(especially ebay) I have heard there is a lot of fake parts going around. I was going to buy a Wilson extended slide stop off ebay for less than 20 bucks and I said to myself "Self it seems to good to be true" and a few days later I read on this site where some "Wilson" parts that were bought off ebay were not Wilson and were junk. Buyer beware. A little time and I would imagine you could find them if not Pachmayrs look nice on 1911s. If you do get ready to sell it let me know.

[lostInBurbs]

Thanks all...any quick way to tell if it has been refinished?

[Doran]

Look at the feed ramp where the frame transitions into the barrel. This thumb print sized area should be bare metal and not parkerized. If it is parkerized the frame has been refinished. If it is not parkerized it may be original finish or possibly refinished by someone who knew how it should look.

Issue grips may not add anything to the selling price but would probably make the pistol easier to sell.

[exitwounds]

To verify the original finish look at the markings/stamps on the weapon, these should be applied after the finish: Serial Number, Inspection marks on the trigger guard, FJA stamp, P stamp on slide and frame (they should also match), "crossed cannons" ord. stamp. Additionally the bullet ramp should be unfinished as Doran mentioned. The correct grips would be Keyes with reinforcing rings around the screw holes, the back has a 5 pt. star with a K inside and a mold number.

[bgiven]

When Colt was suppling the military and the demand grew other companys also made the 1911 such as Remington like you have and Winchester to name a couple. The pistol is worth having and I would not make the mistake if I were you to let it slip away. Once something like that is gone good luck finding another one.


Hunter,

Could you post some info, or a picture of a Winchester 1911. I sure would like to have one of those for my collection.

Thanks.

[Hunter]

I could not find anything on a Winchester made 1911 but I am near about sure that there was some made especially since Mr. Browning worked with Winchester many years. The companys I was able to find that made 1911s for the goverment in WW1 were Colt, Springfield, and Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge. The 1911A1 for WW2 Colt,Remington Rand, The Union Switch and Signal Company, Singer Sewing Machine Company, and Ithaca Gun Company. In WW1 a company in Canada was going to start production but the war ended before that could happen.Winchester may have never made the 1911 and if not I am sorry to give wrong information but I am sure I have heard that they did.

[Doran]

Winchester was given an order for 1911 pistols during WWI. There were several contract and startup problems so no pistols were delivered before the contract was canceled at the end of the war. I've seen perhaps a tool room example of a Winchester pistol at KC several years ago. The Meadow's book has some pictures and dwgs of Winchester's efforts.

[exitwounds]

IIn WW1 a company in Canada was going to start production but the war ended before that could happen.

NAA (North American Arms) whom leased an old Rifle Plant in Quebec City to manufacture these pistols. Little is known about the operation, and no pistols were delivered. The Company did reach the pre-production stage of manufacturing, and approximately 100 toolroom were made. A Pistol was submitted to the Claims Board for inspection in early 1920. Probably the rarest of all 1911's.

[lostInBurbs]

Exitwounds, a followup:

On the serial side of the gun, I see
- A 'U' on both the upper right and lower left part of the trigger guard
- just left of the top of the grip what I think are crossed cannons though they are very faint as if the top half of the stamp was not set real well. Is this where they should be?

On the Remington Rand side I see
- found FJA and one P stamp below release; can't find the second on the slide (is it underneath)?
- on the trigger guard upper left there is a '2'

Lastly, the bullet ramp, sorry for my ignorance, but is that right under where the bullet sets before going into the barrel? If so, curriously, there is a small area right underneath that is bear metal.

I suppose this one has not been refinished?

[CTDinMT]

Lost-The bare, unfinished area directly below the chamber is the feed ramp.

[exitwounds]

Lost-The bare, unfinished area directly below the chamber is the feed ramp.

The bare unfinished area of the frame at the top of the magazine well is known as the bullet ramp. Sounds like you are referring to the portion of the barrel directly below the chamber.

[exitwounds]

All the markings you described sound correct and properly located on the weapon. The important thing is that they are stamped after the finish. The ord stamp is often found only partially struck. You should see burnishing with a magnifying glass on all these stamps. There should be a P stamp on top of the slide between the ejection port and rear sight. The bullet ramp should be bare metal with machine marks, not polished. If the P is not present on the slide it may have been (most likely) replaced.

[191145]

Judging from the pictures, I'd say the finish is original because of the rust spots on the slide from years of being in a holster. The shade of Parkerizing looks right for a late RR, and the small parts are blued as they should be - see the end of the slide stop pin on the right side. The thumb safety and hammer should have checkered areas but the slide stop and mainspring housing should be serrated. It probably has a High Standard barrel marked HS on one lug and P on the other. Somebody just liked the look of the Colt grips so they put them on. The originals are probably in the house the gun came from if still owned by the same people. A replacement set of Keyes grips will return the pistol to as-issued condition.

[exitwounds]

'44-'45 R-R production may also be found with F (Flannery) stamp on the lug and P on the other lug. The important thing is the markings on the weapon and when they were applied, refinished weapons have been found with rust depending on when they were restored and how they were stored. Typically, R-R pistols above late 2.3m serial range will have darker small parts that appear blued, but are a phosphate finish.