receiver blanks?

[omahaguy]

this is my first post, and WOW what a place!!
well my question is where can I find blank cast 1911 receivers, I have heard of $40 ones but I can not find them for less then $200, I figured this is more of a gunsmithing question, I hope this is the right place.
also can I take a peice of steel and with a non cnc mill, just the old hand cranker with lots of lay out dye and scribing and turn it into a receiver?

Thank you all
Jerry M.

[pa_guns]

Hi

A receiver blank that's worth putting work into is going to cost at least $150. The cheap ones will take way more work than the money they save you. They also may not even be able to be turned into a "proper" receiver. You may have to build a "redesigned" pistol with them.

The 1911 was originally built in large quantities long before the day of CNC machines. Even in WWII the gear that turned them out was more in the "hand crank" than "automatic" family. With enough time and care you can indeed turn one out. The specially designed cutters and tools to do it will cost you way more than the $150 receiver though.

If you are a tool and die guy with a good shop, you can of course make each required cutter or tool from scratch. My guess is that even the raw stock to make all the stuff from will still run more than the $150 though.

Most people find simply building up a 1911 from a kit of parts to be more months of work than then can easily set aside. My guess is that building a 1911 and all the stuff to make it from scratch is a "years" kind of thing for most people. That's a lot of time ....

Bob

[egumpher]

Hello,

Check out SARCO at:

http://www.sarcoinc.com/cgm.html#7

Rgds
Eric

[pa_guns]

Hi

There are several threads here on the Sarco receivers. They are low priced for a reason ....

Bob

[egumpher]

but I can not find them for less then $200

Thank you all Jerry M.

Thank you but I thought he wanted this type equipment?

Good heads up though....

Rgds
Eric

[pa_guns]

Thank you but I thought he wanted this type equipment?

Good heads up though....

Rgds
Eric

Hi

The OP was looking for options on receivers.

My concern is that if you don't really understand what one of the Sarco's is, you are sinking money into something that will not do what you want it to do. They are great for making art work (*very* neat paper weights), that may be what he's after ....

That's completely independent of what your time is worth - this is a hobby.

Bob

[kenhwind]

Anybody interested in building a 1911 type firearm needs to buy and read the Jerry Kuhnhausen Manuals. The bargain priced stuff is a bargain for the seller because he has your money. What part of rejects or seconds or out of spec. is so hard to understand.
A parts gun cost more than a whole gun. I ought to know I 've made several. And you have a gun with no name, that ain't worth the price of the parts.
Ken

[egumpher]

Anybody interested in building a 1911 type firearm needs to buy and read the Jerry Kuhnhausen Manuals. The bargain priced stuff is a bargain for the seller because he has your money. What part of rejects or seconds or out of spec. is so hard to understand.
A parts gun cost more than a whole gun. I ought to know I 've made several. And you have a gun with no name, that ain't worth the price of the parts.
Ken



So true......

Like myself, I do have the Kuhnhausen Manuals but this type project is like building a hot-rod or custom bike and I haven't taken the plunge into a home built 1911 yet.....but soon perhaps. But like a hot-rod, there is a lot to time money and investment that you will never recover but you will eventually have something of your creation.

Rgds
Eric

[pa_guns]

Hi

With outfits like Rock Island selling complete pistols for less than the price of a good barrel and a finish job, you have a very hard time justifying a build up as the cheapest option.

There's a whole lot you can do on a 1911 without building it from scratch. As far as I'm concerned a factory pistol with a new beaver tail is still a factory pistol. The amount of customization that can only be done by starting from scratch is outside the range of what most people go after ...

The only real justification is to do a build the first time as a learning experience. You will never know a factory pistol the way you know one you built up yourself. You won't save/make money, but you will learn a *lot*.

On your second or third pistol, you may well get good enough to justify it as "better" than a factory pistol. That's not better in terms of resale, it's better in terms of suiting your needs better. You will also have the tools and skills, so it will happen faster and cheaper. Still not cheap in an absolute sense, but cheaper.

Unless you have a "name", a pistol you build up yourself will never be a good thing at resale ....


Bob

[kenhwind]

The OP asked about a blank receiver, and mentioned $200. A finished receiver can easily be bought for $200. The Essex GI receiver is about $160, and has grip screw bushings installed.
A receiver blank and a bare receiver are not the same.
This thread needs to fizzle out.
"nuff said here"
Ken

[John]

Correct. A frame blank is a big chunk of metal which roughly looks like a frame. See one here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/reviews/ColtTour2/Coltframeforging.jpg

Then there are finished frames, like those sold my Essex or Caspian.

http://www.caspianarms.com/Images/rbc2.jpg

Between these two ends there is something called 80% frames, 60% frames etc.

I think that a decent frame like the Caspians sell for around 200$. So a frame blank can't cost that much. Of course, in the crazy times we live in, it is entirely possible that even frame blanks have rise to that price level.

[pa_guns]

Hi

The "definition" of 40/60/80% complete parts can be pretty elastic. The original intent was to estimate the total amount of work that had been done on the part.

In the case of parts that have mistakes the fact that they have 80% of the operations done may be correct. What also may be true is that 50% of the operations will have to be (re) done to correct the mistake. Is it an 80% or 50% frame? It sells for more if you call it 80%...

Bob

[wjkuleck]

Fizzle out? Not before checking out:

CNC Gunsmithing (http://www.cncguns.com/projects/1911a1frame.html)

Regards,

Walt

[kenhwind]

OK. Nice link Walt thanks.
Question; is it legal to manufacture a frame without a lincense? The receiver needs a serial number; BATFE. This fellow had enough sense to use aluminum. He has access to all the neat tools needed, most of us don't, and are lucky if we can use someones Bridgeport.
And there are known examples of hand made frames.
I'm not sure if the OP was even sure of what he was asking.
Not to worry someone will ask the same thing next week.
Ken

[Frank]

It's my understanding that it's legal for someone to make a gun (other than one that might be covered by the NFA) for his personal use, without a license. But I also think it's kind of tricky. I think you need to do all the work yourself, and you could never transfer it.

Someone used to sell 1911 frames that were 80% finished. They still required considerable machining work to make into a gun, but you could buy them without a license, and finish them yourself (you could not have help) to make a gun. I don't know if they're still available or if BATF changes the rules.

DVC

[wjkuleck]

OK. Nice link Walt thanks.
Question; is it legal to manufacture a frame without a lincense? The receiver needs a serial number; BATFE. This fellow had enough sense to use aluminum. He has access to all the neat tools needed, most of us don't, and are lucky if we can use someones Bridgeport.
And there are known examples of hand made frames.
I'm not sure if the OP was even sure of what he was asking.
Not to worry someone will ask the same thing next week.
Ken

My pleasure, Ken.

You can make all the firearms you want, for your own use, as Frank points out. There have been several build article "arcs" in Shotgun News on making a semiauto out of a full-auto parts kit. I'm not going into the issues arising from the use of a full auto parts kit, but the author/builder, an experienced gunsmith, stated that while a serial number wasn't necessary on a scratch-built receiver, that it would be prudent to apply one.

Regards,

Walt6

[wjkuleck]

It's my understanding that it's legal for someone to make a gun (other than one that might be covered by the NFA) for his personal use, without a license. But I also think it's kind of tricky. I think you need to do all the work yourself, and you could never transfer it.

Someone used to sell 1911 frames that were 80% finished. They still required considerable machining work to make into a gun, but you could buy them without a license, and finish them yourself (you could not have help) to make a gun. I don't know if they're still available or if BATF changes the rules.

DVC

Right on, Frank. When I was doing some research on AR-15 "80%" receivers, I ran across some M1911 offerings as well. The problem with the "80% rule" is that there isn't a rule, and it isn't 80%, and what is "80%" anyway? The rule, if I recall correctly, uses very vague language to describe "incompleteness."

The BATFE has no interest in making the rule more specific, as then they would get into the "what operations are still needed" and what "% completed" means and so on. The tendency, as I read it, is for the BATFE to simply swoop down on a vendor, declare that the product offered is "too complete," and shut down the operation.

Sigh.

Oh, and the BATFE has a habit of changing its mind, as purchasers of Zastava M76 sniper rifles (I have other examples) discovered to their signficiant inconenience.

Double sigh.

Regards,

Walt

[wjkuleck]

Oh, and here's a source:

National Ordnance (https://www.vbd.com/noc/shop/products_category.asp?CategoryID=44)

Regards,

Walt

[kenhwind]

A finished receiver from Caspian is less money.
CNC Gunsmithing; He did note that he makes his own parts. While an interesting project, he also noted about time and money. If I had the machinery, you bet there is several things I would do to a 1911 to make it unique. But it is probably more cost effective to order the options from Caspian and then assemble a custom gun.
I wasn't sure about the can or cannot make your own. I could continue with this but you know where it would lead.
Ken

[wjkuleck]

A finished receiver from Caspian is less money.
CNC Gunsmithing; He did note that he makes his own parts. While an interesting project, he also noted about time and money. If I had the machinery, you bet there is several things I would do to a 1911 to make it unique. But it is probably more cost effective to order the options from Caspian and then assemble a custom gun.
I wasn't sure about the can or cannot make your own. I could continue with this but you know where it would lead.
Ken

There are those, for example "CNC Gunsmith," who want to do it just to prove to themselves that they can do it. It's actually quite an accomplishment, if you think about it. I certainly couldn't attempt it. Money and time don't enter into it :; .

Regards,

Walt
PS There are others, for perhaps darker reasons, but we shall let that thought pass by...

[DoctorX]

The cast frames such as those sold by Sarco are perfectly usable, IF:
- the magazine well is not 'twisted' w/r/t the top part of the frame
- you study as much technical material as you can get your hands on (books, plans, diagrams, etc) about the 1911
- you understand the inter-dependency and inter-relation of all the parts in the 1911
- you study and learn all you can about metals, metalworking, heat treating, etc, and put it into practice.
- you invest in good quality workholding equipment and metalworking hand and machine tools
- you carefully think about and plan your moves before ever putting a tool to the casting, forged blank, or billet.

If you buy a cast frame, you might as well buy three because they are cheap, and you will make mistakes. You might be surprised how far you can go with hand tools before you reach the point where you need power tools. It all depends how much your time is worth, what you expect to get out of the endeavor, and how badly you want it. Pretty much like anything else in life, I guess.

Dr X

[grendelbane]

Actually, you can manufacture your own NFA weapons, too. You still have to pay Uncle Sam $200 tax for the privilege, and you can't manufacture MGs any more, but you can still manufacture SBR, SBS, AOW, and suppressors.

Of course, then you will have to put a serial number on it, as well as your name & address.

It is definitely not cost effective, but the idea of making a .45 frame from scratch, without a serial number, is kind of appealing.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Both the feds and the states have rules on firearms. I think you might want to check your state laws about firearms with no serial numbers on them ....

In most states it's the state law that blocks ownership of suppressors. My guess is that making one from scratch is fine with the fed's, not so much with the state (assuming they are blocking them in the first place).

Bob

[grendelbane]

Hi

Both the feds and the states have rules on firearms. I think you might want to check your state laws about firearms with no serial numbers on them ....

In most states it's the state law that blocks ownership of suppressors. My guess is that making one from scratch is fine with the fed's, not so much with the state (assuming they are blocking them in the first place).

Bob

True, I should have mentioned state law as well. It didn't cross my mind, since I live in a free state.

This could have caused some one potential problems with a non-serialed home build. It would not have caused them anything more than frustration with NFA items, as they simply won't give you the stamp if it is against state or local law.

Potentially, an ignorant LEO in a free state could cause you some needless hassle. In my neck of the woods, I do believe that he would live to regret it. It would take a while for his embarassment to go away.

[DoctorX]

I would like to suggest that before anyone even thinks about making a suppressor that you might want to consult the ATF / state regs really closely, not only for what is / is not allowed, but also just in case there were / are changes to the laws that haven't been widely distributed ("80%" AR-15 lower rules have recently been "revised", for example). The last thing you want is a "no-knock" search or some other "difficulty" paying you a visit. The Small Arms Review has printed plenty of (avoidable) horror stories.

Forgive the interruption, but it is just a suggestion.

Dr X

[niemi24s]

Actually, you can manufacture your own NFA weapons, too.What does NFA stand for?

[Hawkmoon]

This thread is drifting rather badly.

Back to the question: There are sources for so-called "80%" frames, Typically, an 80% frame will cost more than a 100% frame, Sarco used to sell some partially finished frames for around $25. They were nowhere near 80% complete, and they were non-standard in some respects. I have one. It's my dedicated .22 Ceiner conversion. For a variety of reasons, it isn't practical to use it for a "real" 1911.

But Sarco sold out of those. What they have now are totally unmachined frame (and slide) castings, You will need to do ALL the machining -- starting with planing the side flat and smooth, and ensuring that the two sides are parallel. They also have a non-standard grip length -- longer than Officers, but shorter than a Government model. Which means you will have to make your own cut-down mainspring housing, since Sarco is sold out of the MSHs that fit those frames.

I know of no other source for unfinished frame castings (or forgings),

[kenhwind]

What does NFA stand for?
National Firearms Act of 1936, I believe the date may not be correct.
Help!
Yes; Hawkmoon we drifted around and around for sure.
Where is the OP?
Ken

[grendelbane]

NFA is the National Firearms Act of 1934. It imposed a $200 transfer tax on machine guns, short barreled rifles, shotguns, AOW's, (any other weapon), and DD's, (Destructive Devices, basically breechloaders over .50 caliber, and mortars, grenades, such as that. The Street Sweeper shotguns are DDs.

[pa_guns]

.....
Where is the OP?
Ken

Hi

Good question. I wonder if he has what he was looking for...

Bob

[omahaguy]

I appreciate all of the help and advice, but in the end I guess I will just buy a completed one, I know a pawn shop guy with an FFL that will order a gun for me for just $20, so my next queestion is.. Where can I get a good cheap new or used 1911, I currently own a star bm 1911 that I love and the accuracy is remarkable, I also like the lack of a grip saftey. so bearing this in mind any advice is greatly appreciated, any one on here around Nebraska?..

Thank you all very much
Jerry M.

[pa_guns]

Hi

There's no better place to learn about what people think about the different 1911's on the market than here on the forum. Check out the various manufacturer's areas. Rock Island is one that's worth looking at, as are others.

Bob