Newbie M1911A1 Questions

[FrankR]

I recently became the owner of what appears to be a 1944 Colt M1911A1. From my limited familiarity and reference guides to proof marks, it seems like everything matches and is not rebuilt, but I'm no expert on these. I'd appreciate any comments as to originality, value and whether I should have it refinished.
http://img.techpowerup.org/090215/IMG_4758.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090215/IMG_4755.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090215/IMG_4759.jpg

I now have it completely disassembled if more pictures are needed.

Thanks,
Frank

[Johnny Peppers]

Hard to tell much about it with the flash bouncing off the oil on the pistol. Clean off all the oil to make pictures, and make some closeups of the markings.

[TattooPaul]

+1 to pics with the oil wiped off. If it proves; after checking some stamps, etc., to be correct - absolutely do NOT refinish it. Only refinish it if it proves to be a parts gun with no real value. Refinishing will kill any potential value. Let's sort this thing out first.

[Scott Gahimer]

FrankR: Welcome to the board.

One of the easiest ways to get your pistol ready for good photos is to use some rubbing alcohol or acetone (finger nail polish remover) on it with swaps or cotton balls after you wipe it off with a rag.

The background you choose will determine how you camera sees the subject and adjusts for the brightness of the photo. If you choose a good background and have adequate indirect lighting, we'll be able to see the finish and the markings well enough to offer an opinion.

As far as refinishing goes, original finish or not, your pistol's finish appears too good to have refinished. They're not new production pistols, and don't don't have to look new. If your current finish proves to be original, it would be a mistake to refinish the pistol.

[FrankR]

Thanks, fellows - my photography skills are minimal. I keep getting sepia tones with the flash turned off - most look like this:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090219/IMG_4799.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090219/IMG_4805.jpg

If you need better pictures, I can try to add some more light.

Frank

[TattooPaul]

Judging by the serial number, your Colt appears to have shipped to the Transportation Officer at Springfield Armory in one of the shipments between Dec. 4th & Dec. 11th, 1944. The barrel appears properly stamped and the rest of the components can be checked against Clawsons' 3rd edition manual to insure they are correct for the piece. As time permits I, and others could guide you with looking for other clues. Looks like a nice vintage veteran at this point.

[FrankR]

Thanks - if you can tell me what pictures you need, I'll try again this weekend and see if daylight outdoor pictures look a little better.

Frank

[TattooPaul]

Thanks - if you can tell me what pictures you need, I'll try again this weekend and see if daylight outdoor pictures look a little better.

Frank

Natural light does work best.

I already see the "P" proofmark on the frame. There should be one of identical font and size on the top of the slide. It also show the proper crossed cannon final accptance mark back on the top of the right side by the grip panel.

The barrel has the proper stamp showing. Later production (I'd have to look up when) switched to a box with a "C" in it. Is there any small letter stamped on it's underside? If so, what is it?

The "G.H.D" (Guy H. Drewry) is the correct Army Insp. of Ordnance for it's period. He was such from June 17, '42 to July 15, '45 and the pistol range listed as being under his range definitely includes yours.

Take a photo of the top of the reciever back where the magazine tops out and rounds get fed to the ramp. There should be a "G" in the 5 o' clock position and there may be others that will help.

Get a photo of the underside of the slide, towards the rear as well.

Are there any letters on the "toe" of the magazine? Also, the wear almost makes it look like a WWI style two-tone. If it is a two-tone it's not period correct but I do suspect it just looks that way in the photo.

I see the "VP" (verified proof) on the trigger guard and an "X" above for the assembler. On the other side of the trigger guard I believe there is another inspectors number or letter.

This is a quick list of things I can think of right off the bat. Oh yeah, throw in a pic of the MSH (mainspring housing) so we can se if it's serrated or checkered. I'll have to look up when the switch was made.

Any better versed experts, please weight in and certainly correct any info I may put out in error.

Nice veteran, Frank. After a few more pics give it a once over (with an eye loupe if possible) then a good lube and reassmble it with care. It'll be nice to see a pic of each side after the once over. Looks to be a nice warrior.

[Scott Gahimer]

Even with the photos, I think the pistol appears to be original finish. All the markings appear sharp and undisturbed. Those that should be struck after finish appear to be so.

The "P" proofs on Colt pistols are different from the "P" proofs on the pistols made by all the other manufacturers. The "P" proofs on Colt pistols do not necessarily have to match exactly. They were not always stamped by the same die, nor were they struck after finish like all the other pistols made by Singer, US&S, Remington Rand and Ithaca. This is verified by earlier Colt pistols with matching serial numbered slide whose "P" proofs do not match exactly.

Colt's began using the Parko-Lubrite phosphate finish at about serial number 1,700,000. So your pistol may or may not have a Parko-Lubrite finish. If the pistol is in fact original finish and has a finished bullet feed ramp on the frame, that is a pretty good indicator that the finish is Parko-Lubrite. Colt's did not remove the phosphate finish from the feed ramp on the Parko-Lubrite pistols because the finish was determined to be slick enough for smooth feeding.

The most common barrel in the 1.7 million serial range has a tiny "F" on the bottom of it, in front of the chamber and barrel lugs. The boxed-C barrels aren't usually seen until later in production. You'll need to let us know what marking is on your barrel, and then inspect the wear patterns on it, the slide and frame to determine originality to your pistol.

Serrated mainspring housings at Colt's were introduced by mid-1944. However, both checkered and serrated were used throughout the remainder of 1944, with the number of checkered decreasing as time progressed. I have one early original 1945 Colt that still has all early checkered small parts and the wide spur hammer. That is not common, but it just goes to show parts were used in no particular order once they were supplied to the parts bins for assembly.

The same is true of the other small parts... narrow vs. wide-spur hammers and checkered vs. serrated slide stops. There is no precise serial range where the change-over took place. It was widespread and inconsistent. I've got several 1.6-1.7M range Colts with various mixed small parts that all appear to be original pistols.

The only way to determine originality on the correct Colt parts is to inspect the finish and wear patterns to verify they match.

On your Colt, the G.H.D. and Crossed Cannons should be struck after finish. All the markings on each side of the trigger guard should be struck after finish. The "P" proofs and serial number were applied before finish.

The grip screw bushings and plunger tube should be staked into place after finish and should show some bare/bright metal upon inspection. The magazine, if an original Colt from 1944, should be marked on the bottom of the baseplate with a C-L, C-R or C-S.

The feed ramp may or may not be finished, depending on the type of finish used.

The slide should not be numbered, and one can verify it isn't by pulling down the firing pin stop plate to inspect the back of the slide.

With good photos, we can also compare your slide address stampings on the left side of the slide to ther known original pistols in the same serial range to see if they match. Chance are good your slide is original to the frame, based on your photos.

Sometimes the markings on top of the frames are not there, as normally expected. Some markings were removed during the process of fitting the slide and frame to one another. Other markings were simply never applied. But a good photo of the top of the frame will possibly indicate whether the finish is original.

While outside natural light is an excellent source of lighting if used correctly, decent photos can be taken indoors. I bounce all my lighting off the ceiling and never use the flash on my camera. I always use a tripod, shoot in macro and use the full auto mode on my old Canon Powershot A-80 camera. Experimenting with different lightings and backgrounds may resolve your photo issues.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2dmilnk.jpg

[FrankR]

Scott, I'm also using an A80, but I don't have your photography skills. With the indulgence of you gentlemen, I'll try again. First, the frame:

The left side shows "G.H.D." that appears to be struck after finish, the "P" proofmark that appears to be finished after striking, the "VP" that appears to be finished after striking, an "x" that appears to be struck after finish and a grip insert that appears to have been installed after finish:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4852249.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4826.jpg

The right side shows the serial number which appears to be finished after striking, another inspection mark forward of the trigger housing which looks like "9C" (the "C" is very faint and doesn't show in the picture, but I can try again, if necessary) and the poorly struck crossed cannons, which appear to be struck after finish:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4833.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4832.jpg

The top of the frame shows the "g" and what appears to me to be a phosphate finish on the feed ramp:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4854.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4876.jpg

Next post, I'll put up some pictures of the slide.

Frank

[FrankR]

The top of the slide shows the "P" proofmark that appears to have been finished after striking:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4903.jpg

The left side appears to have been struck before finish:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4904.jpg

The right side is unmarked:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4899328.jpg

The barrel will be next up.

Frank

[Scott Gahimer]

Frank: You are doing fine with your photography. Your pistol appears to be an original finish Parko-Lubrite Colt. The slide is properly marked for the serial range of the pistol.

If you'll look at your Verified Proof mark on the left side of the trigger guard again with a flashlight, and from an angle...I'm convinced you'll see it is struck after finish was applied.

When a die breaks the surface and forms the mark, it is the vertical side walls that are cut and left void of finish. Often, in the bottom of the strike, finish is still present, but compressed and has slightly more gloss and a smoother appearance than the rest of the pistol. To see the vertical side walls of a strike, one must look at them from an angle. A good flashlight will help the bare metal to show with the naked eye. I usually don't need to inspect those marks with a loupe.
What I normally use a loupe for is to inspect the finish in the bottom of the strikes to look for the compressed finish there.

When you look at the back side of the grip screw bushings (from inside the magazine well) with a flashlight, do you see the bare metal straight lines from the staking tool?

I look forward to seeing the rest of your photos. So far, so good. Thanks.

[FrankR]

The left side of the barrel is struck with "COLT 45 AUTO" and the "P" proofmark is on the lug:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4913.jpg

The right side is unmarked:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4907.jpg

The underside of the barrel has a poorly struck mark that I can't say really looks like an "F", but I don't know what it is:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4908.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4911.jpg

Next will be miscellaneous parts.

Frank

[Scott Gahimer]

Your barrel marking on the bottom is a partially struck "D", and is one of the less common barrel markings correct for your serial range.

[FrankR]

All of the operating control contact surfaces are checkered, except the mainspring housing:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4920.jpg

The magazine is not two-tone... it's just worn... and is completely unmarked anywhere:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4922.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4923.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4925.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4926.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4928.jpg

The grips:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4929.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4930.jpg

I took another look at the receiver markings and I do see some points on the sides and ends of the strikings that are bare metal - in most cases, just a point of light reflects, but enough to say it's bare metal.

Here are pictures of the grip post stakings:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4931.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4933935.jpg

I'll take pictures of anything else needed, or put it back together for assembled pictures.

Frank

[FrankR]

It's now cleaned again (including magazine and mainspring housing assembly), lightly oiled and reassembled. It's smooth as silk:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4936.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4939.jpg

Frank

[Scott Gahimer]

Frank: Can you completely disassemble it all again....just kidding. ;)

Thanks for all the good, detailed photos. I don't see anything at all about your pistol you need to aplogize for. It looks totally original and correct.

One question about your magazine...Is the baseplate spot welded into place, or is it pinned base? You should be able to tell by looking closely at the sides of the magazine, down near the base. On pinned base magazines, the ends of the pins were ground off and polished in place with the body of the magazine.

If you can't tell from looking on the outside of the mag, you can remove the follower and look down inside the body to see if there are (2) pins running through the mag from side to side.

[FrankR]

Scott, actually I wouldn't mind disassembling it again. I've enjoyed it. The last time I took one down completely was in Army ROTC weapons class in about 1963.

I don't see any pins, but I don't see any spot welds, either:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4954.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4953.jpg

I tried to get a shot of the magazine floor, but it's not as good as I'd like:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4958.jpg

Here's a fuzzy shot of the magazine spring, if it helps:
http://img.techpowerup.org/090221/IMG_4960.jpg

What do you think I have and what should I do with it?

Frank

[Scott Gahimer]

Frank: I can't tell too much from your magazine photos due to the lighting glare and the blur.

Here is a link to a post by our resident magazine junky Doran, where he shows the pin tunnels in the base of a pinned base magazine.
http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=290991&postcount=47

Did you see pin tunnels on the top of your baseplate?

Your magazine strikes me as a later aftermarket, based on your photos. But like I said, I can't tell much from the photos. Your answer about the presence of pin tunnels will tell us what you have.

The magazine that was shipped new with your pistol from Colt's would have been marked C-R, C-S or C-L on the bottom of the baseplate and R, S or L on the top of the baseplate toe. It would have been a welded base magazine.

What would I do? I'd hang onto the pistol and the magazine, and then look for a proper magazine for the pistol.

If your magazine is a post-war aftermarket, it's not worth enough to fool with selling, so I'd keep it.

If your magazine is a pinned base mag, then it is a Colt magazine that was shipped with a 1940 to 1941/42 Colt pistol and is a tough mag to find...so I'd keep it.

Regardless, I'd still try to pick up a mag that is proper for the pistol as it was shipped...just because they're not that expensive and it would look good with the pistol. If your mag is an early pinned base Colt mag, I'd point out that's the mag you got with the pistol and possibly the one it came home from the war with.

Either way, picking up an additional mag is easy and what I'd do. But hey, I'm a collector. I try to keep everything. :)

[FrankR]

Scott, there are no pin tunnels on the floor of the magazine baseplate, so I guess this one is an aftermarket replacement and I should look for a correct magazine.

Frank

[FrankR]

Any guesstimates on value if I find the correct magazine for it?

Frank

[FrankR]

My apologies if I've asked a "no-no" question about value on the forum, but maybe you fellows don't want to embarass me by telling me the pistol isn't worth much.

That's ok, because I found it in the trunk of a junk car that I bought for $150 - then had the local LEOs run the serial number to make sure it's clean.... and it is.

So, I suppose my hope that it wasn't worth much - so I could use it as a car carry piece - has come true. I'll take it to the range this weekend and fire a few boxes of mil-spec ACP through it so I can get used to it in case I ever need it for what it was intended.

It'll be fun shooting a pistol that fits my hand so well - almost as well as my BHP did.

Thanks again for your help!

Frank

[Scott Gahimer]

I don't think using a $1500 +/- pistol as a car carry piece is what I would do.

BTW, asking value is fine. It only violates the forum rules if someone is "shopping" a pistol to sell and posts it anywhere except in the designated For Sale forum in the Flea Market area.

A post that says "I'm thinking about selling this, what's it worth?" does violate the rules for posts in the Collector's Corner. All guns for sale must have stated prices and be listed in the proper section of the site.

I'd say you came out pretty well. I assume the car was worth $150, so "free" is a great price. Congratuations a true "find".

[FrankR]

Scott, thanks. Yes, the car was worth $150 for parts, so the pistol was free - along with another .32 revolver.

I was afraid the 1911 was somewhere in between a "shooter" and a true collectible, so it makes the decision a little harder wrt what to do with it.

Thanks again.

Frank

[1saxman]

I don't think there would be any difficulty in that decision for me - that pistol would be preserved as a genuine WWII weapon in very good condition. Not to mention that it's a COLT! Or, if you're not into collecting, you could sell or trade it to get a VERY nice working pistol.

[lenb]

Wow, Frank, what a find! You're one lucky guy. Congratulations on the Colt!

Len

[TattooPaul]

I have seen similar WWII vets fetch in the 2k range. That's a very nice 'A1. Cogratulations and I enjoyed studying all the puoto's, great job.

[FrankR]

Thanks, everyone. I plan to take it to the range this weekend and see how it shoots - or more like how I shoot it. I haven't done any pistol shooting for about 30 years, but I do want to start carrying one in the car for "just-in-case" because I'll soon need to start making work-related cash bank deposits.

I'm not a collector, so I may find that another pistol is better for me to shoot. I have several, including a .38 S&W revolver, but I hate to carry that one also because I've had it almost NIB from 1975.... maybe 10 rounds through it at most. A .45 seems to offer the best self-defense round - probably better than the terrific BHP 9mm I had for many years.

I'll see if I can shoot it like I want.

Can the Colt M1911A1 handle 230gr JHPs or only ACPs?

Frank

[Sgt. Quincannon]

I would shoot only milspec 230gr FMJ in that fine pistol. In fact, since it is in all-original, collectable condition I might consider not shooting it at all.

[TattooPaul]

If you must fire it, please put all new springs in it and save the originals for after cleaning and retirement. Also, all it takes is one round to crack a slide stop and turn what you have into a shooter.

I will admit to having put two mags thru mine but since have stopped as the thought of a crack, lost front sight, etc. on a very nice original pistol does not seem worth it.

Use your own judgement, but please use new springs! Between saving the original springs it will cushion cycling parts as well as possible.

+1 on the FMJ's - try to not mess that ramp up any more than needed. You do have a quite collectable M1911A1.

[FrankR]

That makes sense to install new springs before shooting it - particulary since the plunger spring has a slight kink in it. The sear spring feels a little weak to me, but maybe that's normal. The recoil spring, mainspring and firing pin spring seem fine, but I guess it would be a good idea to replace all of them.

I'm looking at springs on 1911 PartsPlus - don't know if there's a better supplier. I see there are 2 recoil springs by Wolff - a 17 and 20# spring..... and a 16# spring....... which do I want?

Thanks!

Frank

[texagun]

That makes sense to install new springs before shooting it - particulary since the plunger spring has a slight kink in it.

The plunger tube spring is supposed to have a slight kink in it. Don't change it.

[FrankR]

Huh...... OK - I surely didn't know that. Thanks. The short length beyond the kink was to the front when I removed it - and I reinstalled it that way - is that correct?

Frank

[texagun]

Huh...... OK - I surely didn't know that. Thanks. The short length beyond the kink was to the front when I removed it - and I reinstalled it that way - is that correct?

Frank

Not sure. I just replace it the way it came out. Others will be able to answer your question.

It's hard to tell from this schematic:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/schematics/schemmfg.aspx?schemid=141&m=3&mn=Colt%C2%AE&model=1911+Government+Models+

[OD*]

Huh...... OK - I surely didn't know that. Thanks. The short length beyond the kink was to the front when I removed it - and I reinstalled it that way - is that correct?

Frank
Yep, normally. ;)

[TattooPaul]

When I buy replacement srpings I usually find what I need and good product at Wolff's.
I put the originals back in when done putting the two mags I did fire thru it and cleaned it up. (Note: Put your originals in a plastic bag to avoid losing them at the range or wherever you swap 'em tp avoid losing one)

[FrankR]

Do I want a 16, 17 or 20# recoil spring? I'm guessing that the 20# spring would offer more protection for the slide, but wondering what is recommended for 230gr FMJ ball ammo to make the action function properly.

Frank

[TattooPaul]

The stock rate, I believe, is 16 lbs. One big thing to keep in mind, stronger springs offer more protection from stronger loads and used with standard load will affect the timing of the cycle. Double check, but I am almost positive that it's 16 lbs for std. loads. Spring rates affect timing and funtionality. Unless messing with different powered loads, stick with std. I have to run but somewhere, perhaps in the maintenance/troubleshooting section there's a list of std. rates. I have it somewhere but gotta fly. Good luck and anyone with time right now and the right info please post it help Frank and myself out. Thanks. _Paul