New .38 Super Colt Govt Model

[JCP364]

I just picked up this pistol this morning, and 500 rds. of ammo. Now that I've had a chance to read the manual, it cautions that "extensive use" of +P ammo will accelerate wear. The dealer ordered just .38 super, but what came in was the +P. Anyone have a clue as to what Colt considers "extensive use"? Once these are done I plan on reloading, probably in a configuration that is not +P.



Thanks

Jim Powell

[grendelbane]

Sounds to me like they are letting the lawyers write the manuals. All new .38 Super ammunition is marked +P. This is to distinguish it from the old .38 ACP cartridge, which was dimensionally the same, but loaded to lower pressures. No pistols chambered for the .38 ACP have been manufactured since Herbert Hoover was president.

I purchased a Gov't model .38 Super back in 1984, when I was a lot younger, and dumber than I am now. Unique was the powder of choice back then, and I used a lot of it. I shot that thing a lot, with loads that were below max by the loading manuals of the day, but are now well above max in most manuals. If it accelerated wear, I sure couldn't tell it! I still carry this .38 Super, I just recently gave it a new outfit, matte black Duracoat.

Just pick any current manual, and the loads that are in it will be plenty mild. Its a great, much under-appreciated cartridge, Congratulations!

[kenhwind]

WSF powder gives a good factory equivalent load. 6.3 I believe. I usually load 6.2 and use load date from Lyman and Hornady. BTW I also used Unique before I know better, and magnum primers without considering the results and blew the headspace out off the old style barrel that headspaced on the case rim. Opps.
Any way WSF works quite with most cases. Ther is always a bad combo sometimes.
Ken

[GunN4U]

For my .38 Super Colt NRM 1991A1 Government, '64-vintage custom Colt Government and '51 Colt Commander I reload 125 gr Hornady HAP over 7.1 gr of Viht N340. It yields a consistent 1,360+ FPS (Chrony Beta), is accurate in the guns described above and shows no signs of excessive pressure.

[kenhwind]

Seems a little hot ,but I did look it up. It is a Max load. I like the 130 MC over 6.2 /6.3
Winchester Super Field using Winchester small pistol primers. This is pretty close to factory. Winchester and Lyman data. The 9mm 147 WinST is pretty accurate.
I've been shooting my Super since "75" and I feel that the factory ammo was loaded to a slightly higher velocity than current ammo.
My reloading information indicates that Remington and Federal primers yield higher pressures.
When in doubt always use new cases. Remington preferred, Starline seems to be the same. Not all .38 Super cases are the same.
I already blew the headspace out of one. Mag primers and max loads do not mix.

Ken

[wjkuleck]

it cautions that "extensive use" of +P ammo will accelerate wear.

This is an example of a "cut 'n paste" manual cloned from the .45 ACP manual. The "+P" admonition was left in either inadvertently, or by someone who doesn't know, as mentioned earlier, that ".38 Super" ammo is marked "+P" by default to distinguish it from .38 ACP. In addition to writing books, I write ads, catalogs and manuals, so I know exactly how this can happen.

I am fortunate to have a Pocket Hammer; factory .38 ACP is very, very pricey as it hasn't been made for some time now. I hate to load .38 ACP in Super cases, for reasons that should not require explanation ;).

Regards,

Walt

[kenhwind]

Graf and Sons has some .38 ACP Ammo if you want to shoot your .38 Automatic.
I always liked those guns and kinda of wanted one. I like the .38 Auto round
Hornady has load data for the .38 Auto as well as the Super Auto.
The +P designation came to be because of the Super Speed and High Velocity ammo produced for the big Smith's and Colt's as well as rifles that chambered pistol ammo.
technically speaking the >38 Super always +P but marked "High Velocity" by Remington and "Super X, Super Speed" by Winchester Western

We will all be confused soon.

Ken

[kenhwind]

"Extensive use" will wear out any firearm.

Ken

[JCP364]

Ken,

What are the issues with Unique powder?

JCP

[kenhwind]

Unique

This powder is fantastic. Once upon a time Lyman published an accuracy load for .38 Super using 7.7 grains, and Winshester cases.
Remington cases and Winchester cases do not have the same case capacity. The
Remington case has less volume.
Lyman has not published that loading for many years now.
7.2 is probably max for the Super with Unique, but verify this.
Primers make a lot of difference when reloading.
Unique wasn't really the problem it was immature reloading.
30 years ago we used in Unique in just about everthing.
I really like Unique in the .45 Colt, but there are much better choices for the Super.
WSF, 231, Powder Pistol.

Does this help, that's why were are here.

Ken

[GunN4U]

I like the 130 MC over 6.2 /6.3
Winchester Super Field using Winchester small pistol primers. This is pretty close to factory.Ken; I'm interested in trying your factory equivalent load. What does "MC" mean?

[kenhwind]

MC = Metal case, I should have used FMJ, full metal jacket, but handgun ammo usually uses the MC
Remington 130 grain MC, the Winchesters have a flat point and have to be loaded to fit into the magazines,
Berrys' prefered bullets copper plated round nose are very nice indeed, and cost less.

Lyman used Remington case, CCI 500 primers, 6.2 WSF,1119 fps

Winchester used Winchester cases, WSP, 6.3 WSF 1200 fps

Velocity should be measured on an individual bases, too many variables.
Please verify this data from your loading manuals

Hope this clears up your question

Ken

[GunN4U]

It's perfectly clear... thanks! I've seen Berry's occasionally but haven't tried them yet. The 125 gr HAP's fly pretty straight but are a little pricey.

[dodgeit]

Just shoot it already, you'll find it is one of the most accutite out of the box pistols you'll ever own.

[ColoKeb]

Would someone post the loading, CUP, velocity and energy differences between +P and plain 38 Super?

[wjkuleck]

Would someone post the loading, CUP, velocity and energy differences between +P and plain 38 Super?


Well, no.

There is no "plain .38 Super." All .38 Super is designated "+P," in order to distinguish it from its predecessor, the .38 ACP cartridge. The two are dimensionally identical. The .38 ACP is no longer available from the big ammo manufacturers.

Browning's first Colt pistols, the M1900/M1902, were designed around the .38 ACP cartridge. After WWI, Colt decided to adapt the 1911 to .38 caliber. Since the 1911 design could handle more power than the parallel-link .38 ACP pistols, the .38 ACP cartridge was made more powerful and given a different name: ".38 Super." The early pistols were discontinued. However, since many remained in service, the .38 ACP cartridge continued to be made in parallel with the .38 Super until fairly recently.

In sum, the .38 Super is designated "+P" in relation to the .38 ACP, not to a "plain .38 Super."

regards,

Walt

[kenhwind]

The younger members don't realize that the +P designation was adopted to differentiate between standard velocity and "Super Speed" and "High Velocity" ammunition. The .38 Super always was both; Winchester Western, Remington
Apparently shooters used to use the higher velocity ammo in firearms that were not rated for it.
Hencefore the "+P" designation

Ken