Inherited M1911A1

[simplifysc]

My wife's Grandfather some years ago gave me his WWII Colt M1911A. Over that time I have shot a few rounds through it at the range just to see how it functions but primarily it sits in my Gun safe. With the passing of my "Grandfather-In-Law" here recently, this gun has really developed some sentimental value to me because he was such a neat man that I felt privileged to know. I have a couple of questions for the group. First let me say thanks for everyone who has posted such great information here because I have really enjoyed doing a little research on my own for this weapon. My first question is related to value and whether I should continue to shoot the gun or should I just put it away purely as an heirloom. Are there issues with continuing to shoot the gun? Is it safe to continue to use it? I have other handguns but this is my only .45 so I am debating about whether to use it or not. Also, if there is some value to the gun, I am thinking about adding a rider to my Homeowners policy should anything happen to it. What would be a good amount to insure it for?

Here are some of the details -
The serial number is 729335
On the frame it says United States Property and also M1911A1 U.S. Army
The trigger guard, frame and slide are all stamped with a P so I assume that means they are all original components.
The gun also came with a leather holster with a large US imprinted on the leather flap, 2 magazines, and a holster for 2 extra magazines.
Considering its age and background, I think it is in pretty good shape

Here are a few pictures -
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09082.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09083.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09084.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09085.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09086.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09087.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09088.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09089.jpg

If you need to see more clarity in the photos, I can take more outside in the daylight tomorrow. The pistol will always have value to me as a keepsake and a historical item but to others would it be considered a plinker or a collectible?

Thanks for any insight you can provide!!!

[Rich-D]

First, In order for us to view more than the first thumbnail photo, we would have to join Snapfish. That is a burden that most of us will avoid. If you go to the FAQ link listed on the top of this page, it will advise you how to post pic's in here.

Second, One of our resident collector's should be along to provide you with the information you seek. However, they will have to be able to view the photo's

Best of Luck!
Rich

[simplifysc]

As you can see, I figured out how to include the pictures.

Chip

[Grumpa72]

Nice pistol with a nice sentimental value.

[bgiven]

Don't shoot it. I'm assuming it is a 'RS' inspected A1, and would be important to verify what barrel is in it and if the s/n on the slide matches the frame. Look for markings around, above, and in front of the lugs once you have it apart. The slide serial number is under the firing pin stop plate. If we can verify the barrel is correct and the s/n match, you are probably looking at a $2750 to $3250 example IMO. Clearer pictures would help, but externally it looks to be all correct.

[Johnny Peppers]

That is one that should be preserved. Just buy a cheap .45 shooter and preserve that one. You won't be able to tell any difference in the way they shoot, and the military pistol can be preserved for those that can appreciate what it is.
With the slide locked back, push in the firing pin until the firing pin stop plate can be slid down. The firing pin is under some spring pressure, so don't let it get away. The first three numbers of the serial number will be over the firing pin hole, and the last three under the hole. This will tell if the pistol is still matching.
It was shipped from Colt on April 30, 1941.

[m308c]

Chip,
It's a dandy, get insurance on it, and really cherish it! I would also recommend buying a shooter. Get all the background you can about the man and the pistol.
regards
mark

[Scott Gahimer]

Based on the photos so far, externally the pistol looks all original. As others have already indicated, the barrel and serial number of the slide need to be verified.

The pistol is definitely a collectible and should not be fired to preserve it's originality and condition...not just to retain monetary value, which I think is about $3500 +/-.

Condition is condition, regardless of the age. Many non-collectors assume that exceptions are made in grading condition or assessing value, based on the age of a pistol.

A 95% pistol is 95%, regardless of how old it is. The same is true with an 80% pistol. So we should never assume that a WWII pistol can be used to shoot today without reducing the value. Use constitutes wear, and wear results in lost monetary value.

The greatest value to your pistol and accoutrements that accompany it is derived from the fact that it was your wife's grandfather's issued pistol and gear. That is all the more reason to preserve it.

Any use exposes the pistol to possible damage and/or lost parts. It doesn't happen all the time, but parts do sometimes break, crack or are otherwise lost due to breakage.

Originality cannot be duplicated. Every time you take that pistol to the range, it's the same thing as pulling $3500+/- plue the sentimental value out of your pocket and placing a bet. The odds might be in your favor, but there are upsets and freak events everyday in the world of high-stakes gambling.

Johnny gives excellent advice. Spend a few dollars, typically less than $500, and buy yourself a nice, modern-day military clone for a shooter. I think some of the modern production Springfield Armory pistols have lifetime warranties. If something breaks on them, it can be replaced or repaired with no real loss...especially no loss due to sentimental value.

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your pistol and the story about ol' grandad and how special he was to you. The pistol and rig is part of his legacy that needs to be preserved.

We'd like to see any additonal photos you might provide of the slide's serial number, the barrel markings, the top of the frame wen disassembled, the magazine markings (sometimes on the top of the baseplate toe; sometimes on the bottom of the baseplate; sometimes both places). Photos of the markings are helpful to those of us who actually collect. We learn from original pistols we have the opportunity to observe. Thank you for providing that opportunity on this pistol rig.

BTW, don't store the pistol in the holster. Properly clean it with a good CLP, like Clenzoil, and store it in a climate-controlled atmosphere. I would unload the magazines to relieve spring tension, clean them with CLP and properly preserve them, as well.

When caring for leather, it's important to do it right the first time. There are no do-overs on it. Pecard's is the best leather preservative I know of, and what I use. Johnny Peppers recommended it to me, and he has used it far longer than I have. Johnny has some some beautifully preserved pieces of leather in his collection. That speaks for itself. If you have questions about the Pecard's, I'm confident Johnny can provide the answers you want.

With proper care, everything you've showed us can be preserved for generations to come. Insurance might be useful to a degree, but the point is to properly care for, preserve and store the pieces in the first place. Insurance doesn't replace anything lost. It merely provides some money. I'd rather have the guns than the money, as far as my collection is concerned.

[Jim Watson]

. I'd rather have the guns than the money, as far as my collection is concerned.

Agreed. I think the insurance premiums would be better spent on a safe.

[simplifysc]

Thanks for the wealth of information already. This is the type of information I had hoped to glean before I fired the gun too much. I will take the good advice I have been given here and retain the pistol (in my safe) as a keepsake and pick up another 45 for shooting/carrying.

I field stripped the gun and took some more photos. The Receiver is stamped RS in two places - once on the left side of the frame about an inch above the magazine release and the other time on top of the receiver where the slide sits. The barrel is labeled Colt 45 Auto and also stamped with a P like the frame and slide. I could not find the serial numbers that Johnny mentioned. Maybe I am just not looking in the right spot.....

One other neat thing my wife reminded me of tonight is that a couple years ago, my wife's uncle had "PaPaw" recount a bunch of his Military Service and stories so he could create a family book of his WWII service. That work along with this gun will really brings those years to life for years to come.

Here are some more photos. Thanks again everyone. The information I have gleaned here makes me treasure this pistol even more.

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09090.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09091.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09092.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09094.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09095.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09096.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09097.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09098.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09099.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09100.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09101.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09102.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss295/Simplifysc/Winter2008-09103.jpg

[RickB]

Go here:
http://www.coolgunsite.com/
From the menu, select "ID Pages", then select "SN (serial number) Placement". The pic on the right illustrates where the slide serial number is located. The slide of my '42 Colt is numbered three units higher than the frame.

[simplifysc]

Got it Rick. The pic on that site helped me understand what Johnny was telling me to check. I did confirm, the Serial Number on the slide matches the serial number on the frame.

Chip

[Axel]

Nice RS 1911a1.

Some are mismatched by a few serial numbers probably from wartime use, so it is a big plus yours has matching numbers.

It is a treat to see some of these rare inherited guns come out of the woodwork. It keeps me checking out this forum.

Is there a G under the barrel in front of the lug?

[bgiven]

There is a letter stamped infront of the lugs on the belly of the barrel. This too will confirm if the barrel is correct, also effecting value a great deal.

[Joni Lynn]

Your 1911 is in very nice condition and I'd also suggest not firing it.

Welcome to the forum.

[simplifysc]

Axel - There is a G and I wondered what that was indicative of when I saw it. What does that mean?

[stuart gildersleeve]

Government

[1saxman]

Hey, man, it's a beauty. A very desirable Colt. There's only one little possible problem - you are now subject to developing a peculiar disease called 'Coltitis'. The first symptoms are a chronic thirst for Kool-Aid and a sudden, unexplained interest in anything decorated with a Rampant Colt. Welcome to the club!

[Axel]

Axel - There is a G and I wondered what that was indicative of when I saw it. What does that mean?
G is for government which is correct for your gun.
One like yours will have a small capital G; later ones had a slightly larger capital G.

It is a big plus to have the correct barrel as they were often replaced when they corroded.

You have a nice original RS Colt. Thanks for posting.

[Johnny Peppers]

Your barrel should be the small G variety. The small G is on the left.

http://i40.tinypic.com/4kenbt.jpg

[lenb]

Thanks for the comparison pic between the two different "G" sizes, Johnny. I've had a nice Colt barrel for years, and could never tell whether it was a large or small G. Now I'll have to check it when I get home today.

Len

[simplifysc]

Johnny - When I look at the "G" on the barrel of my pistol, it is very small and up very close to the lug much like the one on the left in your picture above. It is much smaller than the stamped "P" for instance on the frame. The odd thing is that while the G is very small, the font is more squared off than the one on the left in your picture. Notice how the vertical line on that G has a little curl to it? Mine is very straight. Any idea why that discrepancy?

[Johnny Peppers]

I wouldn't necessarily call it a discrepancy just because it is not identical to the one I posted, and I feel quite sure that Colt had and used more than one G stamp. I have never made a comparison of different small G, bit will note any differences in the future.

[simplifysc]

Thanks Johnny for all of your help and (everyone else as well). With these things confirmed, do you think insuring the pistol for $3,000 is in the right ballpark?

[Scott Gahimer]

No, I don't think $3K is enough to replace the pistol with one like it. Insurance companies rarely pay what you value the pistol for.

You need to find out exactly how they'd pay a claim if you had a loss. You also need to find out exactly how they determine value before you ever potentially have a loss and expose yourslef to the grief of tryingto settle with them.

A nice original 1941 blued Colt M1911A1 isn't an easy pistol to come up with. You don't go to WalMart, or even Cabela's and walk out with one. That needs to be taken into consideration when attaching a value. It may take a long time to even find one, and then it would never be the one that belonged to grandad.

Insurance companies typically do not pay anyhting for sentimental value. Make sure you first protect the pistol; then be sure to protect yourself from the insurance companies. ;)

[Axel]

Like others have said, I would spend the money on a good safe instead of insurance.
http://www.ghqst.com/img/G.jpg
http://www.ghqst.com/img/GG.jpg

[Axel]

Thanks Johnny for all of your help and (everyone else as well). With these things confirmed, do you think insuring the pistol for $3,000 is in the right ballpark?
If you listed your RS 1911a1 on gunbroker for a buy-it-now price of $4,000 or even maybe $4,500, it would sell within a few hours.
Like Scott said, it isn't an easy pistol to come up with.
http://www.ghqst.com/img/rs-41.jpg

[simplifysc]

Wow. That is pretty amazing. As you can imagine, the sentimental value would keep me from ever selling it but I am intrigued at what it was worth. I am sure glad I stopped in here before I started using it as my carry in the car gun. What a huge mistake that would have been. It is in my Gun Vault (and has been since I got it) but I wish there was some type of secure way to display it because it really is a beautiful piece of history.

[rondawg]

I wish there was some type of secure way to display it because it really is a beautiful piece of history.

I just bought a couple of 8x10 "shadow boxes" at Hobby Lobby on sale for 1/2 price. They both have hinged fronts with magnetic latches, and are the perfect size for a 1911 with maybe a couple of accessories. They're $25 normally, I got two for that price.

My plan is to eventually mount them to a wall so they won't fall off, and I can open the hinged front and take my pistols out to put them in the safe when I leave the house. In other words, I'll only display them when I want to.

They're very similar to this, this might even be the same box. Anyway, my point is that you CAN display it, as long as you can still put it in the safe easily.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/displaycase01.jpg

[1saxman]

Oil it up with a good quality oil such as already mentioned. Make sure you get oil on every metal surface, inside and out. I know it's already been mentioned, but Clenzoil is ideal for this purpose, and it's also good for the wood - keeps it from drying and cracking (obviously no wood on this gun). Make sure you take the grips off and clean/oil behind them, for that is the most likely place for pitting to start. Keeping it in the safe is a great idea, but remember to get it out and clean/oil it yearly. You have a treasure there in every context. It's irreplaceable, so make sure you insure it for enough to placate you for the loss if it should occur. Make sure to prepare documents detailing the provenance for future generations. That pistol and story is incredible. Thanks for sharing it.

[ulfman]

some day I will die...all post like these make me so jealous. I want an RS sooo bad. You lucky ...... :-)
ulfman