Need help in what barrel this is.

[Michael Edmonds]

Just purchased a US Army 1911 Colt that was manufactured in 1916. I knew the barrel was not correct when I purchased it so when I dismantled to clean it, I could take a better look. The barrel has the number "5" stamped on the bottom, just ahead of the lugs. There is something stamped on the left lug, not real clear but it has a curved bottom. On the face of the hood, it appears to have either a "C" or possibly a horizontal "S" stamped on it. The transition, on the bottom of the barrel is smooth with no step. Sorry, I do not have any way of posting photographs. Any ideas? I look forward to any help.
Thanks....

[Scott Gahimer]

Some 1916 M1911 pistols had a barrel with the temporary inspector's "S" mark struck on the back of the hood extension.

Does the pistol have an "S" on the top of the frame, or back of the slide, where you would normally expect to find an "H"?

What is the serial number of the pistol? That makes a difference, too, as to what barrels we normally see in the 1916 pistols.

What markings are on the back of the slide beneath he firing pin stop plate?

And what positions are all these markings in?

Example: top of the frame 4:00 o'clock to the disconnector hole

Example: back of slide 1:00 o'clock to the firing pin hole

How is the MODEL OF 1911. U.S. ARMY rolled onto the slide? In the middle of the slide? Nearthe top of the slide? Near the bottom?

Thanks.

[Michael Edmonds]

Dear Scott:

The mark on the face of the barrel hood does look like a "S".

At the back of the slide, just above the firing pin stop plate, there is a "S". Under the plate at a 12 o'clock position, there is a "Z" and at the 6 o'clock position, there is an "OLD ENGLISH type H". On top of the frame, there is a "S" at the 2 o'clock, a "T" at the 2:30 position and at 4 o'clock there is a "H".
Also, on the frame, just in front of the feed ramp, there is (what looks to be) a "S".

The serial number is: 133878.

The "MODEL OF 1911 U. S. ARMY" is closer to the top of the flat area and not midway.

I hope this helps. Do you think this is the correct barrel for this 1911? Any information will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much,

Michael

[Scott Gahimer]

Michael: Thank you for providing the information on your pistol. It sounds absolutely correct to me, based on the markings. Finish is another issue, becuase we haven't seen it.

1916 M1911 Colt pistols carry a pretty high premium because 1916 was the year of least production. The pistols with the temprary inspector (Strong) "S" markings are sought after as well. It's a rare pistol and certainly a good one to put back and hang onto.

Congratulations. I hope you will be able to post photos sometime, or e-mail them to me. I'd be glad to help you determine originality of finish and value once I saw the pistol.

Best regards.

[Scott Gahimer]

Michael: I forgot to ask you whether there are any markings on the back side of the barrel lugs, as seen from the back of the barrel below the chamber? Sometimes you have to look closely because the marking, if there, is sometimes battered from use and wear as the pistol is fired.

[Michael Edmonds]

Hello everyone,

Here are two photographs, can you determine anything by seeing these?

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv143/hiredhelper/1916B.jpg
http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv143/hiredhelper/1916A.jpg

The finish looks to be original, but thin. There are no pits, scratches or any rusting. As you had helped me with before, this seems to be all original. If you can see enough, can you tell me a ball park value?
I welcome any comments as I am still learning and will value any input.

Thanks,

Michael

[Scott Gahimer]

Michael: Did you ever look on the back side of the barrel lugs to see if there was a marking there in that location? I'm talking about below the chamber, on the back side of the barrel lugs. Thanks. That should tell me what I need to know about the barrel.

Value? What did you pay for it? Original 1916 M1911 pistols are rare. Probably worth at least twice what a 1917 M1911 in the same condition is worth. 100-150% premium perhaps. The pistol looks pretty nice, and honest.

[Michael Edmonds]

Scott,

Not yet. As soon as I do, I will post what I see. What will I be looking for?

I have seen some 1917's sell in the $2000.00 range, is this what you are saying?

Thank you,
Michael

[Scott Gahimer]

Michael: I'd tell you what I think might be there, but I don't want that to influence what you think you see. The barrel makings I suspect you have are kind of rare...only being used in a small serial range.

That information is not yet included in Mr. Clawson's book because we just started tracking them in the last couple years. There aren't many original pistols found in this serial range.

Am I saying your pistol is special and valuable? Yes, if it is all original and fairly nice condition. Your photos make the pistol look like it's maybe 85-90%? I can't really say without seeing it in-hand if it is all original, but it does appear to be all correct anyway.

If your barrel proves to be original to the pistol, that is great news.

What I'd like for you to do is to take a good close-up of the back end of the barrel and post it. Then I can tell you what to look for on the slide and frame.

Yes, a fairly nice 1917 M1911 that is all original is easily worth $2000, or more. 1916 mfg. M1911 pistols are highly sought after among collectors who are trying to collect numerous sub-variations. Your pistol, if all original is worth 100-150% more than an apple-to-apple 1917 mfg. piece IMO.

My opinions shouldn't be considered a price guide, but simply my opinion based on my experience. I hate to try to nail down an exact value on anyhting without seeing it firsthand. Too many variables with online photos. But I think in general terms, using a comparitive value, as with the 1917 mfg. piece, is pretty safe. I don't have to guess how nice your pistol is, I just compare value to one just like it made a year later. :)

You've got a great piece to hang onto...far better than money in the bank. Now you need to be sure to properly care for and preserve it.

Looking forward to the photo(s).

Thanks.

[Michael Edmonds]

Hello,
I tried taking a couple of photographs of the chamber end of the barrel and could not get anything that you could use. The focus on the camera just won't show anything up close. With that being said, I did look the barrel over under some real strong light.
This is what I did see:
There is a 5 stamped under the barrel just in front of the lugs.
There is a 3 or 5 stamped above the connecter pin on the right lug.
There is the letter "S" stamped on the face of the hood and it is laying down. If you are holding the barrel and looking into the chamber with the hood extension to the top, the "S" is laying horizontally because there is not enough space for it so stand vertically.
Still looking into the chamber end, there is a capitol "P" just below the barrel stamped on the face of the lugs above the slot.
There is considerable finish on the exterior of the barrel. The rifling is very strong but is some what dark in the grooves with some lit pitting present. A very shoot-able barrel, I think it is a keeper.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for your help, Michael

[Scott Gahimer]

"P" on the back of the lugs is exactly what I was wanting to hear, and expecting you would find.

Sounds totally original to me. If you ever attend any of the gun shows we attend, I'd love to see it in person.

As far as being shootable, yes it probably is. But that is about the last thingI'd do with that pistol due to it's value and desirability.

Congratulations!

[Michael Edmonds]

Scott, thank you for all of the help you have given, I do really appreciate it. Me purchasing this shows there are some original 1911's still out there. I purchased this over this internet from a sporting goods shop near Chicago. I knew that the 1916 Colt 1911's were very hard to find and when this came up, I thought I should try to purchase it. When I called the store, I asked them what barrel it had and was told they thought it was a WWII "HS". I thought the pistol was still worth having and haggled and purchased it. When I received it, I found the barrel not to be a "HS" and then came to the forum. You mentioned shows, where and when are they? I would really like for you to see this.
Thanks again and may God Bless. Michael
(OH!, I was just kidding about being shootable)

[Scott Gahimer]

The next big show we'll be set-up at is the March show at Louisville, KY at the State Fairgrounds/ Expo Center. That is probably the largest collector's gun event in the country...more than 4000 tables combined between the two shows that go on simultaneously in adjacent halls. I'll have 4 tables on the front wall in the National Gun Day gun show, and plan to display 80-100 original pistols there on 3 of the tables. The OVMS Show of Shows is in the adjacent hall and has a separate admission.

If you can make that show, it would be a good show to attend to see a lot of nice pistols and meet many other collectors who regularly attend.

I've got a couple pistols in that basic serial range with the same type barrel markings. The "P" on the back of the lugs is often overlooked, unless one knows to look for it.

Thanks for sharing the information on your pistol. I'll look forward to seeing it sometime. Charles Clawson normally attends that show, and always has a seat provided when we're set-up. I'm confident he would enjoy seeing your pistol, too. It's not the normal plain-jane, brown bag variety of pistol.