Guess what I got???

[ripper1813]

I just became the proud owner of a Colt 1911. I thought it was a really cool gun when it was given to me (yes GIVEN) but wasn't really sure what I had until I got it home. (well, to be honest, I'm still not really sure!) According to the serial number guide I found on this site it was made between October 1912 and January 1913.

It has been kept in a drawer not oiled for probably the last 40+ years (at least) so I took it to a local gunsmith and asked them to take it apart and clean and oil it.

I took it in the rather large gun shop and the gentleman behind the counter asked if I minded talking to the gunsmith. He called in the back and said "You are going to want to see this." The gunsmith advised me that it was the oldest one he had ever seen with a serial number under 20,000. He said the only thing not original was the clip. He seems to think it is find. Is it really that rare? Regardless of how rare it is I think it is the ultimate in cool!

[Scott Gahimer]

Welcome to the forum. When you have more information, we can provide specific shipping info and help you determine what you have. An all original early M1911 is a nice find, especially as a gift. We look forward to seeing it.

In the meantime, you can refer to the sticky at the top of this forum that deals with what type of pistol you have...M1911, 1911A1 or Government Model. There is some basic info and photos in there that might be useful to a new collector/owner.

[Mick_In_Texas]

It is a true joy, and blessing, if you love the platform, to have an ORIGINAL.

I was fortunate enough to acquire a Colt M1911 from mid- to late-1918 run a couple of years ago. Even the magazine is original. I had to pay for mine, LoL, but it was VERY reasonable for the shape it is in; and it is 100% functional.

I shot it once. Upon cleaning, I realized that mine, like yours, needed some serious cleaning, and I also had a local gunsmith who's also a big 1911 fan, detail-strip it and thoroughly clean it. It looked like a whole different gun!

I have many guns, but THIS one... I can't even describe in words how thankful and blessed I am to have gotten it. I'm serious. 90 years old, and it's still perfectly functional, although it has wear on the finish (doh)... It is beautiful. It is First Lady. Many dreams I've had to let go of; but to have THIS pistol... IS a dream that came true, after I fell in love with the platform. I sometimes just hold it... and every second, I am thankful that it is real, and authenticated, and functional. It is one of my greatest material treasures.

Good for you, ripper. Good for you! I am happy for you. Cherish yours. They are becoming rare. Cherish yours.

You and yours take care and be safe. Welcome to our club!
Mick

[ripper1813]

In the meantime, you can refer to the sticky at the top of this forum that deals with what type of pistol you have...M1911, 1911A1 or Government Model. There is some basic info and photos in there that might be useful to a new collector/owner.

Thank you so much Scott! I had already spent some time in those stickies to research what I had and should have included that information. It is the M1911 military issued version. The exact serial number is "19515" without a "c" in front of it and it has United States Property down one side. :D

I'm kicking myself for not getting "before" pictures to show the condition it was in when I got it. But as soon as I get it back, I will post the "after cleaning" pictures. (It seriously had dirt caked on it and was in a Walmart shopping bag. ughhh) According to the research I have done so far, and the information the gunsmith gave me, the only thing that is not original is the clip. (It doesn't have the lanyard loop.)

I had to promise the gifter that I would allow him to shoot it one time when it was back in working order, (the only time it will EVER be shot) and the locksmith stated he would replace the firing pin, but ensure I had the original to put back. I don't like the idea of firing it with the age it has on it, but the person I received it from had no appreciation for the gun so letting him fire it once to get it in my possession where it can be properly "babied" is a small price to pay.

I'm still trying to determine how the quality of the gun is determined, so I can't give you an estimate on that, but I don't think it would be classified as "rough" by any means. I'll post pictures soon.

[OD*]

Congratulations :appld:

One thing, the M1911 does not use *clips*, it uses magazines.

[tsellati]

It sounds like you are the recipient of a wonderfully generous gift! Can't wait to see some photos. I am diligently reading through stickies as well and endeavoring to self-educate in prep for my first M1911A1.

Getting one as a gift certainly would facilitate the process :). As for now, I am selling some other items and saving pennies in the meantime.

Tim

[Scott Gahimer]

Colt M1911 No. 19515 was originally shipped Jan. 21, 1913 from Colt's to Rock Island Arsenal in Rock Island, IL. It was part of a 500 pistol shipment numbered 19501-20000.

I think agreeing to let the former owner fire it once is a small price to pay for the pistol and I would have agreed to do that also. I assume it is a gunsmith, rather than locksmith, who told you he would change the firing pin to shoot the pistol.

Just be sure you keep track of all the original parts and replace them when done with the shooting exhibition. As soon as you have some good pictures up on the board, we'll be able to discuss exactly what you've got.

You asked in your original post how rare the pistol is. We'll be able to address that better once we see it. In general terms, an all original early pistol is rarer than a late pistol, simply because there was more time and opportunity for something to be changed on the earlier pistols.

However, there are a lot of different specific sub-variations in M1911 collecting that are considered rare and more valuable, based on production numbers, markings, who they were shipped to, etc.

That said, the earlier the production...the more beautiful they were when originally manufactured.

We're looking forward to seeing your pistol.

BTW, what type of magazine do you have with your pistol? Full blued, 2-tone non-lanyard loop, or...??? Did your gunsmith verify barrel markings and all parts specific to your serial number before telling you the gun was original? If so, he's a notch above most gunsmiths, who have a strong working knowledge of the pistols, but don't collect them to have the historical knowledge about their evolution and specific small parts.

[ripper1813]

Obviously I need to make sure I have that first cup of coffee when I wake up before I post (or at least reread once!). :)

He partially dismantled the pistol before commenting on it. I believe he only removed the what he could dismantle by hand, without tools. The entire time he was dismantling it he was commenting on the inventor of the pistol (Browning, I believe), even commenting it was the guys birthday, and went on to tell me the years they were manufactured and a ton of other information. In addition, he checked the serial number and then told me the magazine should have had a lanyard loop to be original. He said the gun appeared to original but it was more of a passing comment. After he was done giving me a history lesson on my particular gun, he went on to give me a history lesson on everything else that was ever designed by Browning.

He may not have had a clue what he was really talking about, but he seemed very knowledgeable and he came very highly recommended from a friend who has been in the gun business for years. The friend told me he was the only person they would trust to clean it without doing anything that could harm the value.

I wish I could remember what the magazine looked like, but honestly, I can't. I would like to think that it was blued, single tone, and I know there was not a lanyard loop, but my memory is not my best feature. I'll be sure to post very thorough pictures the day he gives it back to me. I am sure that every one here will be able to give me much more information than the gunsmith would ever be able to supply!

I'm still kicking myself for not taking pictures first!!!!

[DC Page]

Congratulations Ripper on what sounds like a very nice Colt. Once your gunsmith has gone over your pistol and made sure it is safe to fire, (including a thorough inspection under a magnifying glass to look for cracks or stress fractures in the known problem areas) consult with him or someone you trust regarding what loads to use. Whenever I fire an original 1911 (which is pretty rare) I use “light loads” that I made several years ago for this purpose. They are standard 230gr. FMJ but without a full charge of gunpowder. I load 1 round into the magazine, mag into weapon, cycle the round into chamber, fire the round, and the slide is then locked open due to the empty magazine and doesn’t slam home. This probably isn’t necessary but I’m overly cautious with these great historic pieces, and I’ve never fired one with a serial number as low as yours. I’m not saying it’s dangerous, I’m just saying that I am very careful and treat them with great respect. Looking forward to pictures of your new Colt.

Oh and you should do something very nice for the person who gave you this working piece of history. If there is something he really needs or something that would make his life better, easier, or bring a smile to his face I would do whatever I could to make it happen. And don’t forget to ask him for all the details you can get regarding the pistols history while you have the chance, and write them down or record them. Usually it’s nothing more than vague recollections, family legends, and incorrect info, but sometimes you get lucky, and I’d say your luck seems to have been pretty good lately!

Regards,

Dave

[Mick_In_Texas]

... because, as said earlier, these beauties are old, and many went through at least one major conflict under battlefield conditions. Like ripper's, mine wasn't clean when I got it--not anything as major as his--and I only realized this when I dismantled the magazine out of curiosity (although by that time, it had been field stripped three times, by me and the two gunsmiths, and had fired 7 rounds from that original magazine)... it literally had "grease balls" on the spring (little round grease balls, I don't know what else to call them).

I did this while doing the cleaning after it was fired that one time. Anyway, back to the point: as someone said, these are subject to many, many firings in a military "career", especially in testing and training... they're strong and well-made, but yes, things eventually wear out. I was SO nervous awaiting receipt of mine, "knowing" that something HAD to be cracked, missing, pitted, etc. because of the price I paid... MUCH to my relief, this was not the case at all. But yes, it was sound, and I did fire it once with mild hand-loaded 230 gr. lead round nose bullets. But no, I doubt I'll ever fire her again. Just maintain her and be thankful for her.

Agree that once she was checked out, letting the owner fire her once was a VERY small price to pay for what is a real mechanical treasure of a firearm! Mr. Browning was a GENIUS, there is no other word for it; the 1905/10/11 pistol platform alone would confirm that for me, but in fact he designed several other arms that are still in production and viable today, and not only handguns!!! He designed some of Winchester's finest rifles, too... His move to Colt ended up making history with the 1911 pistol. These are beautiful weapons. Beautiful. A basic design that's just over 100 years old, and STILL viable... I share the joy of all who are fortunate enough to own one or more of the "originals" in good mechanical shape. After I fell in love with the platform, I never DREAMED I'd own an M1911 from Colt's. I was EXTREMELY lucky in the way I got mine, but, hee hee, it wasn't given to me, LoL...

ripper, you are INDEED a fortunate man! I, too, would LOVE to see photos of your beauty when you can share them.

Y'all all take care.
Mick

[ripper1813]

Some bad news. Got her back from the gunsmith. Forgive me if I get some of the terminology wrong, but I'm just a southern lady with a gun. ;)

The original gunsmith's partner got involved because he is more in the know about these. He says that it is a Remington Frame with a Colt slide. He says he talked to a Tennessee collector who reviewed the gun with him to be sure. He says that the combination must have been made sometime during it's very early life because the finishes on both pieces are original, but they have aged the same and match well. Their explanation to me was that it was typical during the war to put whatever parts together that would make a workable weapon so a soldier could keep fighting as weapons quit working.

So, I'm going to post pictures on photobucket. I hope that is acceptable. I don't know if I officially still belong in this section or not now. I'll gladly relocate to the proper area if needed, but would still like to know what everyone thinks about it. Regardless, even if it isn't worth anything it's still ultra cool! I am slightly disappointed its a "hybrid", I must admit.

Pictures located here (http://s679.photobucket.com/albums/vv152/ripper1813/)

[Mick_In_Texas]

It is true that during WWI, near the end of the runs, there were "hybrids" as you say... While I'm not nearly the expert as is Scott and others, I STILL say this is one BEAUTIFUL M1911!!! You did well with the photos, THANK YOU...

I LIKE it. You STILL have an original M1911, and perhaps you can see it this way: it's still way rare, being that combination of contract parts... Frankly, I find that very interesting and historical, plus it's STILL functional! Granted, I'm not a collector in the true sense of the word... I didn't buy First Lady as an investment, or "collector's item"; I bought her because she was reasonable and I managed to find the means to pay for her, because I LOVE this platform!!!

You should STILL cherish this one, ripper, it is a BEAUTY. We're glad to have you here. I'm happy to see ANYONE who comes to love this incredible platform, for whatever reason/s...

You and yours take care and be safe, ma'am.

Mick

[DC Page]

Ripper you are still in the right place, that is a USGI pistol. After a quick look at your photos I’d say your gunsmith is on the right track. The frame appears to be a 1919 Remington UMC, with what appears to be a Springfield eagle’s head inspection stamp at the front of the left side of the trigger guard. Probably need to see the rest of the inspection marks on the frame, slide, and barrel and let Scott tell us what they all mean as a whole.

If it had been an all original Colt, it would have been so valuable that if it were me, I wouldn’t have been able to accept it as a gift without buying the original owner a VERY expensive gift. It’s still valuable, and historic. As Mick says it’s still a beautiful piece, and a great piece of history.

[ripper1813]

Thank you both for your posts. I don't feel quite as disappointed now.
As far as the gift part, I believe he gave me the weapons as repayment for the years of assistance that I had already provided. Hopefully we will have many more years of providing each other with those smiles and swapping gifts and assistance in both directions.

I tried to photograph all of the marks I could find, but may not have gotten them all, so I'll list them. Hopefully it will make it easier for him since he's doing me the favor of educating me!!! (Which is very much appreciated.)

Right Side:
Slide - Model of 1911 U. S Army
Frame on trigger guard - 30
Frame above trigger - NO 19515
Left Side:
Slide - PATENTED APR.20.1897.SEPT.9.1902
DEC.19.1905.FEB.14.1911.AUG.19.1913
COLT'S PT.F.A.MFG.CO
HARTFORD, CT. U.S.A.
Slide behind the ribbed area near rear of gun is a colt horse
Frame - UNITED STATES PROPERTY
Frame on trigger guard is a very small eagle head
Frame above magazine eject button is a very faint eagle head (a little larger than the one on trigger guard. Immediately above eagle head is E.E.C
Above the hammer is an "H"

I can't find any other markings on it when looking at it assembled.

The gunsmith also said the barrell looked like it had been replaced around WWII. He didn't say how he was determining the approximate time frame.

I appreciate all of the assistance from everyone.

Oh, and sorry but I also posted a picture of the .25 he gave me on the pictures, so be aware, there are two guns there. I didn't want anyone to think their eye site was going on them. :D

[Johnny Peppers]

In the pictures the pistol appears to have a phosphate finish. More than likely the mismatch occurred as a result of a rebuild instead of a battlefield expedient repair. There was no attempt made to keep the parts together when a pistol was torn down for rebuild, and most came out mismatched.
What are the markings on the barrel, and is it blue or phosphate finished?

[ripper1813]

By on the barrell do you mean I need to remove the slide and look at the actual barrell?

I must admit I have no clue what the difference between a blue finish and a phosphate finish is, but I'm researching it now so I can answer. :)

I feel like such a girl all of a sudden. ROFL

[ripper1813]

Okay, I did a quick review on the internet, and I'm certain that I have no clue what "phasphate" finishes look like.

I do know it's not as black looking as a newer Hungarian Arms 9mm I have.

[DuckRyder]

"phosphate" is also called parkerizing or parkerized.

Beyond that I can be of little assistance other than to say nice looking pistol(s).

I like those vest pocket ACP's... (the .25)

[Scott Gahimer]

Actually, you should be able to look through the ejection port to see what finish is on the barrel. However, some barrels will have a polished chamber area and be void of finish. If you pull the slide to the rear, you will be able to view most of the barrel and its finish.

A blued finish is just that...it will be blue in color. In the blueing process, the color of the barrel's surface changes color.

Parkerized refers to a phosphate finish that coats the barrel. You will not see the polishing patterns of the barrel, normally, if it has been sandlbasted and Parkerized.

A blued surface generally has some luster. A Parkerized surface is matte.

Here is a picture of a Colt pistol with a Parkerized finish. However, the barrel (seen through the ejection port) and magazine are full blued.
http://i41.tinypic.com/bg67ft.jpg



BTW, your magazine appears to be a full blued WWII magazine manufactured by General Shaver. It should have spot welds visible up the back and have a "G" struck on the top of the base plate toe. Your magazine has a blued finish. Your pistol, as Johnny said, appears to have a Parkerized (or phoshate) finish.

Does your barrel look like your pistol, or the magazine?

You'll probably have to disassemble the pistol to see how the barrel is marked. Some post-WWII barrels are marked on top of the chamber.

I also agree with Johnny that your pistol was likely mismatched during a military rebuild, which included refinishing with a phosphate finish. Your barrel markings will help us detemine when the pistol was reworked, or at least the vintage of the parts in the pistol.

And I agree with others' statements, too. It was still a very nice gift to receive.

[ripper1813]

Ok, I took it apart this morning and the barrell appears to be blued and is marked with an "HS" and a "P".

[ripper1813]

Oh, and it may be helpful to know that the previous owner got it from a gentleman who served in world war II. I don't know if this gun was connected to his World War II service or if he purchased it afterwards.

[Johnny Peppers]

"phosphate" is also called parkerizing or parkerized.


"Parkerize" is an acronym for a phosphate coating process developed by the Parker Rustproof Co. While it may not actually be the Parker process, any phosphate coating on a firearm has come to be known as "Parkerized".

[M J]

ripper,

i know the disapointment in finding out that what you think you have and what you have are two different things. i bought what i thought was an original rem. rand that turned out to be a rem. rand slide on a colt frame. it was not misrepresented to me. a friend had it for 20+ years and i had not seen it in 15 years. i had asked him to sell it to me many times and he finially did to shut me up. i gave $500 for it and it will cut a playing card at 25' all day long. it might do better but i am too old to see a card on it's side any farther away than that. that being said, free is a great price for any gun. i would be giggling like a little girl with her first crush to have someone give me one. the only thing anyone ever gave me was a black eye. hope you enjoy yours as much as i enjoy mine.


marcus

[ripper1813]

I've had someone give me a free black eye before as well. You are correct, I liked the free gun much better!!!! :p

I'm still very happy to have the gun. I'm trying to figure out how I want to store it/display it now. I'm sure it's value is probably less than $1000.00, but it's still very cool to me. (along with the Colt .25 made in 1919 that I got at the same time)

Does anyone have any interesting ideas on how they store/display? Or maybe it's just the girl in me that wants to? LOL

[M J]

the best way i have found to display a pistol is to find an old wooden box a little bigger than the gun. get a piece of foam from a fabric store, walmart, ect. that is twice as big as the box. cut two pieces to fit snug in the box. trace out the gun on one piece and cut it out. put the solid piece in the bottom and the cut out piece on top. i had cut up an old tee shirt and spray glued the pieces down in the cut out and a solid piece on top. i cut out for the gun and it drops in nicely. i did this to an old toolbox with a spot for my favorite 4 shooters with a drawer underneath for ammo. it works great for taking over to a buddy's house to make his neighbors mad instead of yours. with a little oil on the cloth under the gun, it seems to protect the finish well.

marcus