Another newbie with questions about my m1911

[Roostalee]

Hi All,

Just inherited my father's old m1911. Turns out it was NOT the sidearm he used in Vietnam but rather one my grandfather acquired somewhere, possibly France where he was stationed in WWI. It's been in the family for many years and has been fired from time to time. From my cursory research, it appears to have made in 1918 with that huge batch of 347,000. I think this makes it a "Black Army" pistol, but I'm not sure everything matches up. The mainspring housing is checkered which doesn't seem right for 1918. The walnut grips don't have the double-diamond design either. But I'm a noob to the world of dating these guns, so any forum help is appreciated. And yes, without violating any rules, I would like to know what this heirloom is worth (not that I want to sell it).

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[Scott Gahimer]

Yes, the frame is 1918 mfg. I can't see the slide and the markings well enough to say what it is. The hammer, grip safety, slide stop, mainspring housing and magazine are all from a later M1911A1 pistol that was made between 1924 and 1945. The grips are 31-row field service replacement type grips that might have been put on the pistol when it was refinished. However, the grips and any of the other incorrect-as-manufactured parts might have been installed by anyone over the years.
The finish of the pistol is not what some refer to as "black army". "Black army" is not even a type of blueing. It is simply a term used by some collectors to refer to the finish on some 1918-1919 Colt pistols which resulted from a coarse surface and poor preparation to receive the blued finish at the time. The coarse and proor prep resulted in the finish not being vey durable in most cases.

You said you thought your grandfather might have acquired this pistol during WWI? If so, then he had it refinished and swapped a bunch of parts later on. What are the barrel markings? What are the magazine markings on the top of the baseplete toe, or on the bottom of the baseplate?

All the parts (their style and markings) tell us about when the last parts changes might have taken place.

[Roostalee]

Thanks, Scott, for the info. I have some updated information to post. First, I doubt my grandfather modified the gun. However, he had a younger brother that brought back a lot of items from WWII, including some Lugers that were later stolen (and a German M1918 helmet I now have). If he acquired this gun while in Europe, is it possible the gun I have was rebuilt for service in the European theater in WWII?

This gun has the eagle's head with "S17" stamped on it. On the trigger guard, just anterior to the magazine release, is stamped "57." I've taken a better photo of the slide, hammer and slide stop. From what I can tell, the MS housing looks very much like an Ithaca. The only marking I saw on the barrel was the "HS" stamp.

If the finish is not Black Army, then is it Parkerized? And being an earlier m1911, is it advisable to not fire it? I understand these were not heat treated and are susceptible to cracking.
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/Roostalee/IMG_11561-1.jpg
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http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/Roostalee/hammer2.jpg
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/Roostalee/safety2.jpg

[1saxman]

Has a M1911A1 slide on it as Scott stated which would negate the heat-treatment concerns. Your gun seems to be a standard rebuild, or a 'put-together' done by the government to get more guns into WWII service, at which time it was Parkerized. It could not have been in WWI in this configuration, although the M1911 frame certainly could have when it was a complete M1911. These rebuilds have their own niche with collectors, and any M1911 frame with the serial number and property mark is a good thing to have. I did not see a typical rebuild mark on yours - some of them did not get marked. This probably reduces it's collector value, because it is then difficult to prove origin of the rebuild unless you have a receipt for it from DCM or the issuing arsenal. My non-expert opinion based on the pictures is it's a legitimate rebuild dating to WWII. I would expect to see this pistol sell for $650 at the gun show.

[Johnny Peppers]

WWI ended on November 11, 1918, so the pistol was too late to make over before the war ended.
Look under the firing pin stop plate to see if there is a number there. Just depress the firing pin enough to slide the stop plate down.

[Scott Gahimer]

Besides checking for a numbered slide, can you show us the barrel? There should also be a "P" proof on the other side, opposite where it is marked "HS".

Your pistol's mainspring housing is from a Colt M1911A1. Early Colt and Ithaca mainspring housings have 27 rows of checkering, but the knurling is deeper and more defined on the Colt parts.

The slide stop is mid-to-late WWII serrated production. The 31-row grips typically weren't used until post-WWII as replacements.

If your barrel is Parkerized, rather than full blue, chances are it, too, is a post-WWII refinish. I don't think there were too many WWII era production barrels that would have been refinished that soon and put in arsenal rebuilds during the war. However, post-WWII, that was pretty common.

I'm not saying your pistol wasn't possibly used during WWII. I just don't think it was used in this configuration. I think your pistol is a post-WWII rebuild, based on the photos and information you've provided so far.

[1saxman]

'Look under the firing pin stop plate to see if there is a number there'
Just curious, what does it matter what the slide number is (if it has one) since it's a M1911A1 slide on a M1911 frame?
Scott; he teases us with the barest glimpse of the barrel hood. From that it looks blued, making me think they put in a new High Standard barrel at the rebuild. I'd like to get into this pistol and see what's in it. I've got an Inglis Hi-Power all over my bench at the moment that I just got today. I didn't realize until I got it that they have the old-style internal extractor.

[Roostalee]

I'll disassemble it later this evening and check the slide and barrel, and post some pics as well. This pistol has been a mystery gun in my family for too long, and I'm glad you all are helping me unravel at least some of its secrets.

[Johnny Peppers]

'Look under the firing pin stop plate to see if there is a number there'
Just curious, what does it matter what the slide number is (if it has one) since it's a M1911A1 slide on a M1911 frame?


I don't know that it matters any more than knowing what else is inside the pistol. It is just something I would like to know as the slide doesn't appear to have the hardened slide stop notch, so it should be numbered and I would like to know what year pistol it came from.
Just curious, but what does an Inglis High Power have to do with the 1911?

[OD*]

I didn't realize until I got it that they have the old-style internal extractor.
Had it up to 1963, I believe.

[Scott Gahimer]

I, too, am curious if the slide is numbered. Knowing the year of production will possibly indicate how likely, or unlikely, it is that the pistol was rebuilt for WWII.

If the slide is late enough that it is not numbered, chances are very slim the pistol that the slide came from would have been sent in for rebuild so soon.

In the close-up of the OP's pistol, I can't see any signs of the slide stop notch being hardend. However, in this picture from his first post, I think I can see a hardened notch. I think the lighting is so bright in the close-up, the hardened area just doesn't show.

But in this photo, the lighting is such that I think I see a large area around the notch that is darker.

http://i40.tinypic.com/152ltvc.jpg

[Roostalee]

OK, I disassembled it and took pics of the slide, barrel, magazine and the frame itself. The barrel does indeed have the P marking on the reverse side of the HS marking. I can't tell if the barrel is blued or parkerized, hopefully you all can tell. The slide has a differently-colored end starting at the letter "E" in the word Patented (isn't this a hardening treatment?). As far as markings go, there is the P marking on the slide's top. On the underside it appears to be something like ON or OZ. Can't really tell. Further down the inside of the slide, it's marked with what looks like a G? The frame has an 8 stamped where the slide fits, although I'm not sure that helps since we already know the details on the frame. Oh, and the lip of the magazine has an L stamped on it.

The lighting's not great so the autofocus didn't want to play nice on some shots even when I put the camera into macro mode and tried some fill lighting with an LED torch. But I hope you guys can make out the markings.

We last fired this gun about ten years ago and it is a heckuva lot of fun. Nicely balanced and quite accurate. But should I be firing this gun at all?

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[Scott Gahimer]

Thanks for the photos. The barrel is Parkerized and the magazine is a WWII full blued magazine that appears to be original finish. The slide has been refinished.

Now there are just a couple more things we need to see.

First...On the left side of the slide, about half-way back, there is a notch cut out of of the bottom where the slide stop locks the slide back. After mid-1943, the area around that notch was flame-hardened with a torch like the front end of the slide which displays a darker color. The hardened area doesn't show up as well around the slide stop notch normally. If you rock the slide back and forth in your hand, you can usually see the hardened area that is round, and arcs around the notch. That's what we'd like to see...whether that area has been flame-hardened.

Next...On the back of the slide, you'll see the firing pin showing through the firing pin stop plate. You need to depress the firing pin with a pencil or ballpoint pen enough to allow the firing pin stop plate to slide down. As you slide it down, the firing pin will want to pop out because it is under slight spring pressure. So don't let it pop out and hit you in the face. That could put your eye out.;)

Once you slide the plate down far enough, you can remove it from the slide. On the back side of the slide, underneath the firing pin stop plate, there may be a serial number stamped aboe and below the hole for the firing pin. If so, there will be 3 or 4 numbers above the hole, and 3 numbers below the hole. We would like to see the back end of the slide and the serial number we suspect will be there. That will date your slide.

Thanks for the help. Once you do this for us, I can't think of anything else we need to see to offer any further opinions on your pistol.

As far as shooting it goes...that is up to you. You always risk breaking, battering or losing something if you do. If that doesn't bother you, and you want to fire it...have at it.

If you are concerned about preserving it, then you might want to find another cheap modern shooter. There is a "sticky" post at the top of the forum that deals with this topic at length.

Will you damage it if you fire it? Maybe. Will the value go down if you do? It depends on what you damage. How much value might it lose? That depends on what is damaged. Do we know what might be damaged? No. Is damage likely? No, but all it takes is one time and things change. What would I do? I'd get another shooter and put keep this one as is. Value is not significant, but it's worth more than a modern shooter. So...

[Roostalee]

Got it. The numbers below the pin plate are 829 on the top row, 185 on the second row (see slightly blurry pic). As far as the slide area around the notch, I rocked it back and forth as you said but really couldn't see any of the darker coloring by the slide stop notch. I took 2 photos, one with flash and one without. See what you think. The heat treatment by the muzzle sticks out like a sore thumb when I photograph it this way...but not so with the notch area.

I probably will put this one away and get a cheap shooter. Guess I'll have to cruise another thread to see what people recommend. I'm not really in the market for a Kimber, just a pistol that feels like this that won't break the bank.

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[Johnny Peppers]

Your slide was originally shipped on Colt 1911A1 No.829185 on October 23, 1942. The slide stop notch would not have been hardened.
Thanks for providing the information.

[Rathdown]

I probably will put this one away and get a cheap shooter. Guess I'll have to cruise another thread to see what people recommend. I'm not really in the market for a Kimber, just a pistol that feels like this that won't break the bank.

I've become a BIG fan of the Springfield Mil-Spec .45. My buddy, who owns the 1943 M1911A1 that I asked about on the 9th, just bought a new one at our local gun shop for $650+tax-- I'm next in line for one unless I find my Colt Commander which is "lost" somewhere in the attic. Don't ask... it's a long story.

BTW, Scott, did you ever figure out the value of my (buddy's) pistol?