Colt won't make it someone else will!

[larry starling]

Well I got to thinking about this and after several nights and discussions with Paul. I have come to the conclusion that Colt introduces many items only to let them vanish into oblivion. And then another manufacture picks up said item and produces it.

Colt's history is full of examples of this practice. As a first example I just finished reading were Sig is introducing a copy of the long and sadly missed Mustang! What gives Colt? Here is a picture of Sig's copy.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n202/larry0810/p238.jpg
Sig is to introduce this at this years SHOT show. And guess what it's suppose to have a MSRP of $450. Find a Colt Mustang in that price range.

There are other examples. Double stack 1911. Enter Para-Ordinance. They started off making conversion kit's for Colt's. And now they have become a full blown manufacture that offers more products than the company they copied.

I'm sure there are more examples. But it has me thinking Colt has missed alot of revenue, buy not making these items.

Anybody want to add some more examples? Come on OD help me out here. :confused:

[Pokem]

So, so true. Cool looking Sig.

Smith and Wesson introduced a Scandium alloy frame version of the Colt CCO. Closest copy any manufacturer has made to date, I believe with a 4.25 inch bushing barrel. Smith may use the external extractor though. Pricey at $1,200.00 but probably a keeper if you like that style as much as I do.

I'll never understand why the Mustang or CCO or Gunsite etc. have to be limited to a short production life.

[larry starling]

I'll never understand why the Mustang or CCO or Gunsite etc. have to be limited to a short production life.
So true. It seems that everyone is wanting a affordable CCO right now. I think Colt made a mistake when they quit offering the CCO.

[daveohno]

If these sell well, Colt will probably join in after the fact.

[larry starling]

If these sell well, Colt will probably join in after the fact.
Sadly Colt has played that tune before.

[Landman]

I've always wanted a Colt Mustang but just can't make myself pay such a high price for a 380. Now that's a nice looking Sig. If they come out with those I'll buy one. I have quite a few Sigs, all are the older pre rail models and love them. They aren't very pretty but are great pistols.

[auto45]

Sig certainly "uglyfied" it. Good price though!

Maybe Sig and Colt "exchanged designs...even-steven"; Sig got the 380 and Colt got that non-1911 "thing" that was posted a little while back!

ColtSig...SigColt. ;)

[wetidlerjr]

If I decide I need a Colt Mustang type gun, it won't be that thing from Sig at any price. As for Para-Ordnance, you "roll the dice and you take your chance". Their recent offerings have been widely reported to be SEVERELY lacking in QC to the point I wouldn't consider one for free. A good friend of mine actually saw one "toss it's cookies" down range the first time it was fired.
There is no doubt that Colt has issues but in the last couple of years they have been attempting to correct them. All of it has not been to my liking but, at least, they are trying. YMMV

[auto45]

You have to admit that Para is "innovative" though!

And, that's quite uncommon for a 1911 producer...it's not in their "genes".

[DuckRyder]

Boy, that is one ugly pistol.

[larry starling]

If I decide I need a Colt Mustang type gun, it won't be that thing from Sig at any price. As for Para-Ordnance, you "roll the dice and you take your chance". Their recent offerings have been widely reported to be SEVERELY lacking in QC to the point I wouldn't consider one for free. A good friend of mine actually saw one "toss it's cookies" down range the first time it was fired.
There is no doubt that Colt has issues but in the last couple of years they have been attempting to correct them. All of it has not been to my liking but, at least, they are trying. YMMV
Bill , My post isn't a bash against Colt. I consider myself one of Colt's biggest supporters. But while I don't own any Para products they did fill a important niche in the market.

There are several other things that Colt is lacking in there product lineup. Someone mentioned that they don't have a pistol with light rail. I don't care for them. But how many sales has Colt missed because they don't offer one?

[OD*]

Anybody want to add some more examples? Come on OD help me out here. :confused:
I really can't think of any you haven't covered Larry.
I can only bemoan the loss of many fine revolvers that were built on the *I* and *D* frames, several companies jumped on the small and medium revolver market.

[larry starling]

I really can't think of any you haven't covered Larry.
I can only bemoan the loss of many fine revolvers that were built on the *I* and *D* frames, several companies jumped on the small and medium revolver market.
Oh Boy! Thats a whole discussion in its own. Here's a question for ya. How come Springfield comes out with the 9mm EMP and not Colt?

[OD*]

Or any 9mm, for that matter.

[larry starling]

Or any 9mm, for that matter.
So true. I still need a 9mm Govt model for my stash...... :mad:

[OD*]

If Colt would bring out a LW Commander in 9, I'd dump my Glack 19 in a heartbeat.

[larry starling]

If Colt would bring out a LW Commander in 9, I'd dump my Glack 19 in a heartbeat.
LOL! I agree. I would love a LW XSE in 9mm. IMHO it would be a perfect carry gun.

[Landman]

A few months ago I found a very nice 9mm Colt Combat Commander. The pistol is wonderful and I'd like to find another. That's an offering I wish Colt would return to.

[bobbarrios]

Question for the more knowledgable:

I have read the above and other threads on a like theme. I have a 9mm combat commander. It seems Colt would sell a ton of them, particularly the lightweight. What am I missing about their business practices? Are they content with being a "niche" manufacturer, like some Dutch company that makes wooden shoes "the way they did in the last century"?

[VFRpilotJim]

I largely agree with you gentlemen, but I would also hate to see Colt just go wild and blend in with all the other manufacturers. At least their antics provide us with some mystique and desire to collect the Colts that should have never left the market; and I do think some will come back (python, CCO). I guess I get some sort of masochistic pleasure from Colt's torture. I don't see a need for dozens of new models from them, but I definitely agree that a 9mm chambering needs to arrive as well as something to please the double stack/double action crowd. As long as they don't mess with the standard government and commander models I can go on living!

Jim

[SleazyRider]

S&W now manufactures a line of "classic" revolvers from the past. I don't know how they're selling, but they sure are eye candy.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Ugly or not I will stand in line for one of those P238s if they're any good.

I've been desperately seeking a .380 or higher pocket gun that is slim and SAO. I refuse to pay current Gunbroker prices for a 20-year-old Mustang, however. And if you think Gunbroker prices are bad...the only two Mustangs I've found in my area have $900+ price tags on them.

[larry starling]

What am I missing about their business practices? Are they content with being a "niche" manufacturer, like some Dutch company that makes wooden shoes "the way they did in the last century"?
Short awnser is yes! Colt is a Niche manufactuer. They need to change and update there buisness practice.

VFRpilotJim I largely agree with you gentlemen, but I would also hate to see Colt just go wild and blend in with all the other manufacturers. At least their antics provide us with some mystique and desire to collect the Colts that should have never left the market; and I do think some will come back (python, CCO). I guess I get some sort of masochistic pleasure from Colt's torture. I don't see a need for dozens of new models from them, but I definitely agree that a 9mm chambering needs to arrive as well as something to please the double stack/double action crowd. As long as they don't mess with the standard government and commander models I can go on living!

Jim
Jim I agree leave the classics alone , But offer more calibers in the models they make! Combat Elites in .38 super and 9mm would get things going.

[paul45]

Boy, that is one ugly pistol.
Do you think the Colt originals are ugly as well? I ask as they look quite similar to me.....

[paul45]

LOL! I agree. I would love a LW XSE in 9mm. IMHO it would be a perfect carry gun.Why? A 9mm in that package? I would rather stay with .45ACP.

[auto45]

" MONEY" may be Colt's issue.

If you don't have enough coming in for all those "things", your hands are "tied". You do what you can...and that's it!!

[daveohno]

So true. I still need a 9mm Govt model for my stash...... :mad:

I actually just bought one of those. I still haven't picked it up. I really don't like buying these pistols on the used market. I would prefer to buy new in the box Colt pistols. If they were 4 or $500, I wouldn't mind, but the blasted things sell for more than if they were new.

Paul, while I prefer the 45 for "work", I shoot 9 quite a bit. It is easy to shoot and cheap to shoot. But if component prices come down some more, a light shooting 45 round could be coming for some of my "target" type shooting. I just need the components to continue to come down and for nothing stupid as far as new taxes to be legislated regarding reloading components.

[larry starling]

Why? A 9mm in that package? I would rather stay with .45ACP.
But yet you purchased one in .38 Super?

[larry starling]

I actually just bought one of those.
Ok Dave your now off my Christmas card list!!!!!! :bf:

[DuckRyder]

Do you think the Colt originals are ugly as well? I ask as they look quite similar to me.....

Well, the originals aren't my favorite (the 1908 vest pocket however is a work of art) but I am not a fan of Sigs slide treatment... the blocky front and the wide serrations seem very out of place on this pistol to me...

Of course if we all agreed all the time the world would be a pretty boring place wouldn't it.

[daveohno]

Ok Dave your now off my Christmas card list!!!!!! :bf:

But it's the only Colt pistol I have that you don't as of this moment! I actually bought it by accident. I saw a 9mm Colt and bid on it while dreaming of Commanders. I was the high bidder and it stayed that way. I noticed that it was a Government Model the last few minutes of the auction. I actually hoped someone would outbid me so I could have gotten out of it. I really wanted a Commander. As I said earlier, I would rather buy a new Colt than a used one. Colt doesn't make any money on these used pistols and at least with new you have the warranty.

[larry starling]

But it's the only Colt pistol I have that you don't as of this moment! I actually bought it by accident. I saw a 9mm Colt and bid on it while dreaming of Commanders. I was the high bidder and it stayed that way. I noticed that it was a Government Model the last few minutes of the auction. I actually hoped someone would outbid me so I could have gotten out of it. I really wanted a Commander. As I said earlier, I would rather buy a new Colt than a used one. Colt doesn't make any money on these used pistols and at least with new you have the warranty.
Ok Dave you bring up some good points! Your back on the list....... ;)

[paul45]

But yet you purchased one in .38 Super?Cause I like oddball caliber Colts. I think if I wanted a 9mm Colt, it would be an old one for the supposed "collectibility". A 5906 would be a great double stack 9mm shooter for hundreds and hundreds less. A 6906 good concealed one.....of course all the plastic 9mms as well. I guess I don't really understand why all the clamor for a 9mm "1911".

[daveohno]

Because it's cheap to shoot and very little recoil. For targets, it's great. I shoot factory ammo at a pistol league I belong to. I shoot 48 rounds per match, 2 matches each time I go. I try to shoot at least 3 "duty" matches per month. I shoot my S&W Gunsite and my Colt Gunste CCO at the "off duty" matches. Same 96 rounds per day. At these, I shoot my 45 reloads. I get at least 10 points higher score on the duty matches. Plus occasionally I'll use the 9mm at steel matches, I lose half the brass at these. I was using a super 38, but I can't get super 38 brass for free. I can get 600 or more once fired 9mm's each month for free. I could get even more if I wanted. So if I lose 9mm brass at a match, who cares? On my monthly Saturday shoots, I shoot 250 or 300 9mm's. I pick up about 600 pieces of brass at the end of the shoot.

[paul45]

I understand 9mm is cheaper and brass is easy to get free, but don't understand the clamor for one in a 1911.

Just me, though.

[larry starling]

I understand 9mm is cheaper and brass is easy to get free, but don't understand the clamor for one in a 1911.

Just me, though.
Just a thought. What is your opinion on springfields EMP? If Colt made a similar product would you be interested?

[paul45]

Probably would!

[larry starling]

Probably would!
Yea me and most others on this forum...... :appld:

[paul45]

Probably would!I do want to add, however, I sure wouldn't be paying no 1150 bucks for it either.

[larry starling]

I do want to add, however, I sure wouldn't be paying no 1150 bucks for it either.
I must admit I wouldn't either......... :dead_hors

[daveohno]

I understand 9mm is cheaper and brass is easy to get free, but don't understand the clamor for one in a 1911.

Just me, though.

Because it's a 1911.

Because it is a Colt (if they made it).

I looked at several web sites, Springfield, STI, Fusion, Para, Baer and Kimber. The only one I liked was the Baer and you know what those cost. If I didn't find a used Colt in my price range, I'd have to buy the Baer. I found a Colt 9mm Commander and it's on the way. I really would have preferred a new one.

[Steve C]

Just a thought. What is your opinion on springfields EMP? If Colt made a similar product would you be interested?

We bought an EMP for my wife, and had some problems with it. It was pre-owned, so I have to think the previous owner must have at least started the break in process. Even after a trip back to SA, we still weren't happy with it and swapped it for a new Para PDA. Once it got broken in, it's now a real pleasure to shoot and the LDA trigger is really nice.

Colt does make a "similar" product to the EMP. The Colt New Agent is the same size as the EMP and the PDA. The only difference, aside from being .45 of course, is that unlike the other two, it didn't need any break in period. 300 rounds through it with none of the angst I had with the other two.

Why carry a 9 when you can have a .45 in the same size?
I also don't see the need for a 9mm 1911, but then again I have a HiPower. ;)

For size comparison, here's a shot of my New Agent with my S&W 442 J-frame on top of it....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/scat999999/misc/photo-1.jpg

[auto45]

Why carry a 9 when you can have a .45 in the same size?

Recoil and mag capacity could be argued.

I can see full sized "dimensioned" 1911 in 9mm, or whatever 38 variety, because of lighter recoil, more rounds and cheaper shooting.

I could also see a "scaled down" 1911 in 9mm. Springfield went halfway. I believe their design was originally for the 45 GAP, which would require a 45 slide.

Picture the Colt 380 government "type" maybe "scaled up" a bit to handle the 9mm, instead of trying to scale down a full sized 1911. I see a market for that...IMHO of course.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

It's real. They come in all-black and 2-tone.

My buddy at SHOT just put in an order for 10. :D

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n202/larry0810/p238.jpg

[Steve C]

Recoil and mag capacity could be argued.

I can see full sized "dimensioned" 1911 in 9mm, or whatever 38 variety, because of lighter recoil, more rounds and cheaper shooting.



I look at it this way. If I'm carrying a "pocket size" pistol, I'm doing so for self defense purposes. If I NEED it, I want as much stopping power as possible, won't care about recoil or the cost of the ammo. It's going to be the "carried lots, shot little" pistol. Then again most of my other pistols are all .45 1911s, so it costs me nothing extra to bring the New Agent to the range along with them.

I carry the New Agent now (alternating with my Nighthawk or my Smith 442) with 200 gr +P Hornady TAP in it, and lemme tell you, it's stout. You can't compare a .380 with that.

[tonka]

Colt seems to drift away from its core markets. Look how S&W, Ruger, Dan Wesson,et al ran away with the big bore revolver market, which should have been Colt's from the get-go; it's what established Colt as a manufacturer, right? They didn't see the handgun hunting market until it passed them by.

That SIG is uglier than a mud fence. It makes me only want two.

[7790314]

I sold a Colt Government .380 (slightly longer slide) and kinda regret it. Not bad enough to buy it back from the guy I sold it to when he offered to sell it back. It's cute but that's about it. That Sig ain't even cute.

[Landman]

I ran across this photograph on the internet. If it is about the same size as a Kel-Tec P3AT I wouldn't mind having one.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h196/onexco/Gun%20Collection/Sig_P238_01_Small.jpg

[DuckRyder]

It is somehow less ugly in black and in the flesh.

Still it lacks the charm of a Mustang.

[Spyros]

Try picturing it in a blue polish, wearing a set of wooden grips... much more purty...