Unfired (?) 1911A1

[Rathdown]

Pistol is SN 958XXX (Colt mfg, 1943). The gun is parkerized, has a blue barrel, perfect grips, and shows better than 90% finish. When I examined the gun it was in a "holster" shaped, clear plastic "bag", the top of which folded over and was held in place by a plastic strap with snap on the end. The pistol was heavily greased (cosmoline?), and when the breach was wiped clean showed little or no evidence of having been previously fired. It is the nicest "US PROPERTY" gun I've ever seen, but that's not saying much.

And now for the (usual) $64,000 question. Any ideas what it may be worth?

[tsellati]

Not sure of actual value, but, I imagine it depends on what someone is willing to pay for a "stone cold" mint example. Also depends on how deep a potential buyer's pockets are and if there are competing interests to acquire said pistol.

Tim

[Auto Mag]

Rathdown, welcome to the forum!! Pictures would help in determining your answer!! There are some very knowledgeable people on here when it comes to Military 1911's! :)

[Rathdown]

I will try and get some pictures up in a day or two. I've been reading a lot of the posts here and it looks like the gun is either (1) a mint survivor, or (2) an arsenal rework that managed to keep all of its pieces together.

Is there a (free) website that provides a general price guide for Colts?

[bgiven]

Is there a (free) website that provides a general price guide for Colts?

Yup.... your'e on it.

The plastic bag you describe seems to be a D-day invasion pouch, for short term waterproofing. Good clean, detailed pictures will be required to determine what is being claimed, and I would certainly expect that a truely unfired M1911A1 would have consideribly more finish than 90%, at least I would hope it would.

Bottom line.... pictures, pictures, pictures.....

[Rathdown]

Hi guys--
Took the pistol to the Richmond, VA gunshow this afternoon where I asked the NRA representative his opinion on (1) percentage of finish and (2) value. In his opinion the gun was "as close to 100% finish as can be expected"; as far as value was concerned he declined to place a dollar amount on the pistol as 1911s are not his area of expertise. He then suggested I check out this website for an honest appraisal!

In addition to the pistol I have the D-Day invasion pouch (excellent with no tears or holes, strap and snap intact), web belt (date & mfgr. indistinct) with magazine pouch (1918 date- L.C.C. & Co.), two magazines (blued), first aid (bandage) pouch (1942 date- ??? Awning & Venetian Blind Company) containing unopened "Carlyle Model" first aid packet-- (no date) and finally a russet government issue holster marked "SEARS" over the date (indistinct) 1917 (possibly 1943) above the inspectors initials G.W.M. preceded by a "lazy" S. I would describe the condition of the web gear as dirty, but very good and the holster as excellent to near mint.

As soon as the camera is re-charged, I'll take some photos and figure out how to post them.

[Scott Gahimer]

We'll look forward to your pictures and should be able to help from there.

[Rathdown]

All things being equal I should post photos later today.

[texagun]

It...showed little or no evidence of having been previously fired.

And now for the (usual) $64,000 question. Any ideas what it may be worth?

I don't think any Colt 1911 could be called "unfired" as they were surely test-fired at the factory prior to being released. However, if the gun is as nice as you say, and particularly with the accessories you mentioned, it would be a HIGHLY desired collector's piece and quite valuable.

Anxiously awaiting some detailed photographs.............

[Rathdown]

Okay, if all goes well here are the photos... well, that didn't happen. I'll try later when my computer literate son is home...

[Rathdown]

Here's the link to the photos: http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp218/mog-guy/1943%20m1911a1/

[Dr. T]

Wow......very nice. I'm interested in the $64K question also. How much would a set like this cost me?

[bgiven]

Rule # 1 in all the M1911 and M1911A1 collector books.

The color and finish of the side and the frame must always match, otherwise they are not original to each other, or one, or both have been messed with.

[Dr. T]

bgiven,
So it's this picture that shows the slide and frame don't match? Maybe just a lighting issue?
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/glentrinka/100_1243-1.jpg

[Rathdown]

The colours match-- at least as closely as they match on any war-time parkerized pistol I have ever observed, other than one that has been "restored". You are seeing a greater degree of light bounce off the (oily) slide as the pistol was tilted slightly to get a better "read" on the markings.

[t-bird]

Rathdown hope your son will help, would love to see some PICS. My son never has time to help me post PICS.

[Rathdown]

Rathdown hope your son will help, would love to see some PICS. My son never has time to help me post PICS.The photos are posted, just click on the link in my previous posting or try:

http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/...1943%20m1911a1

[Steuermann]

Rathdown,

Does the slide number under the firing pin retainer match the frame? Also, how is the barrel marked? These are very helpful in determining value. I once bought one in cosmoline at a show (with security!) and that one had five cosmolined rounds in the clip.

[bgiven]

bgiven,
So it's this picture that shows the slide and frame don't match? Maybe just a lighting issue?

No... it's pretty much evident in all the pictures.

[Steuermann]

The pictures weren't up at the time of my posting... Hopefully, some gun magician won't re-number the slide.

[Scott Gahimer]

I don't think the comments about the slide "not matching" have anything to do with the number that might be on the back. In your photos, the colors of the slide and frame appear to be significantly different.

Here is a Colt in the same serial range as yours. The slide and frame are the same coor and the finish is the same texture. The number on the slide matches the frame, and all the wear patterns match. I've got other Colts in the same serial range that also have the same color slides and frames.

Can you post some good photos of the serial number on back of the slide, and also a good close-up of the slide legend on the left hand side with the patent dates and Colt address?

I think the color of your frame and frame should look more the same in your photos in order to be original finish and matching to each other. Maybe it's just the photos?

Thanks.

http://i42.tinypic.com/10scf84.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/jrv5e0.jpg

[Steuermann]

If the gun left the Colt factory before roughly the 1,140,000 serial range, the slide will be numbered to the frame if the gun is original. Also, the "P" firing proofs on both the left side of the frame and the top of the slide should have been struck with the same die. Hope this helps.

[Steuermann]

In looking through my 1911A1's, the highest matching numbered slide is in the 1,106,XXX range. I rescued my first 1911A1 in 1959 from a vet who was going to have it welded so that his children could play it. Fortunately for the Colt, he accepted my argument that the $20 I was going to pay him for it would buy a lot of toys.

[Rathdown]

Okay, just back from the gunshop (and if the pictures I took pan out, I'll post them). The short story is that the slide isn't numbered to the frame-- slide number is 805217 and the frame is 957181.

[Scott Gahimer]

Okay, thanks. Thank explains the difference in color. Colt's Parkerizing was a much lighter color in the 805xxx serial range than in the 957xxx range.

[Scott Gahimer]

...Also, the "P" firing proofs on both the left side of the frame and the top of the slide should have been struck with the same die. Hope this helps.

That rule of matching "P" proofs does not apply to Colt pistols. The "P" proofs on the Colt pistols are not struck after finish, either. They were machine-applied during production and are finished over. Sometimes they match, and sometimes they don't.

On all other M1911A1 pistols...Singer, Remington Rand, Ithaca nd US&S, the "P" proofs should match exactly and be struck after finish to be original. Sometimes with partial strikes it is difficult to say for sure, but normally there is enough of each "P" proof to do a good comparison and see if they match.

[Steuermann]

I do not now have, nor do I recall ever having a 1911A1 Colt with different firing proofs on frame and slide. Thanks for the info.

[Scott Gahimer]

Rule # 1 in all the M1911 and M1911A1 collector books.

The color and finish of the side and the frame must always match, otherwise they are not original to each other, or one, or both have been messed with.

This is a general rule, yes. However, there are plenty of exceptions to that rule. So I probably wouldn't classify it as the #1 rule.

Surface preparation contributed immensely to the final color and sheen of the finish. The early M1911 pistols were hand polished, and that opens up the door for slight variations now and then. Some of the 1913 Navy Colts have a frame that appears in some lighting, and at certain angles, to be slightly darker than the slides. That may just mean there was slightly more polish to the slides.

Some WWII Parkerized Remington Rands have a slightly different appearance frame-to-slide. That is well documented with thousands of examples and good photograqphy. Again, same finish, but simply a slightly different surface prep.

Late WWII Colts with the Parko-Lubrite finish are another exception that comes to mind. There are at least four different variations of finish you might have...all due to the surface prep before finish was applied. Some parts were sandblasted, while others were not.

Arsenals had to mee the same standards for having a matching finish on slides and frames when they rebuilt and refinished pistols. When the new Parkerized and commercially-marked slides were used on rebuilds in ca. 1951, they were not refinished to match the frames they were installed on. Almost all those pistols have a slight difference in color. Yes, they are rebuilds and not original pistols...but they did have to meet the same stnadard for having a matching finish on their slides and frames.

As collectors, we look mighty closely with intense light at pistols for inspection today. While inspection standards were high during military production, I'm pretty sure the term "matching" finish may not have been taken to the point we take it today.

Normally on those original pistols which sometimes display a slightly different appearance to color or sheen, if we look at them dead straight-on, they do match.

Clearly, this pistol with the non-matching numbered slide does not have a matching color slide/frame.

[Rathdown]

Just checked the photos I took of the serial numbers on the slide on 957XXX, but they lack enough definition to bother with posting. Knowing now that it is a mis-matched Colt, would anyone care to venture an opinion as to value?

[bgiven]

This is a general rule, yes. However, there are plenty of exceptions to that rule. So I probably wouldn't classify it as the #1 rule.

Yes Scott, I realize that..... especially the RRands and the Parko-Lubrite late production Colts. I just thought regarding this example, in this serial number range, with those pictures, it would be OK to generalize. Just call it my JC Harrison imitation.

[Scott Gahimer]

Just call it my JC Harrison imitation.

OK, JC. Sounds reasonable. :scared: :)

[Rathdown]

I'm still curious to know what sort of value to place on this pistol.

[bgiven]

I'm still curious to know what sort of value to place on this pistol.

IMO $1000.-for ins. purposes.

[Scott Gahimer]

Considering many refinished rebuilds and other mismatches often sell for about $1000 in some areas, I might value it a little higher than that if it's all original finish.

If the pistol was later, after slides were no longer numbered, value might have been a little higher because someone might think they could find a slide that would match.

But finding the original matching numbered slide? That just isn't going to happen.