Dads 1911A1

[Big Jim]

Well this pistol was issued to Dad when he was a pilot. He was flying off of Carriers in the Coral Sea. While on a flight the carrier was sunk. He had to fly to an island and then was sent to another Carrier where he served till the end of the war.
He reported this pistol as sunk and at the bottom of the ocean.
This pistol has been inside this WWII sock since 1945. It has NOT been fired, not even once.
I took it out of the sock to take the pictures. The pistol hasn't been oiled, cleaned or even taken out of the sock for over 60 years.
We are wondering what the gun is worth. We did google the serial number and found that it is within 10 numbers of the last build in 1940.
The pistol has all the internal matching numbers.. We did look in there today and were surprised to see nearly every part had the serial number on it. The serial number is 721967.
Any thoughts on the value?
Big JIm
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/BigJimM/IMG_0371.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/BigJimM/IMG_0369.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/BigJimM/IMG_0366.jpg

[Steuermann]

Looks like an honest old warrior. I'd ask $2,500 because of the amount of finish wear. Hope this helps.

[wjkuleck]

With provenance (make sure that copies of all relevant documents are available), the first number for your valuation should be five or higher.

Thousand, that is.

Regards,

Walt

[wjkuleck]

With provenance (make sure that copies of all relevant documents are available), the first number for your valuation should be five or higher.

Thousand, that is.

Regards,

Walt

That gun would cause Colt collectors to swoon, with participation in the Coral Sea (USS Lexington?) and other battles. Best to keep it as a family heirloom!

Were it mine, I'd ensure it for something more than 5k.

Rgards,

Walt

[Steuermann]

I've asked that for blue GI 11A1's in 90% or better condition, but they realistically sell at a considerably lower figure and they don't exactly jump off the table at that. As I'm sure we both know, Colt collectors are picky and they're the primary market in the price range you've mentioned. I haven't seen the actual documentation on this pistol. The name of the carrier and supporting official records would help enormously in setting a firm value. Without these, condition is the only solid variable. This is a salty, original gun (assuming that the barrel is correct) with considerable holster wear, but no obvious pitting. I'll stick to my figure. I'd never sell a family heirloom, though.

[wjkuleck]

I've asked that for blue GI 11A1's in 90% or better condition, but they realistically sell at a considerably lower figure and they don't exactly jump off the table at that. As I'm sure we both know, Colt collectors are picky and they're the primary market in the price range you've mentioned. I haven't seen the actual documentation on this pistol. The name of the carrier and supporting official records would help enormously in setting a firm value. Without these, condition is the only solid variable. This is a salty, original gun (assuming that the barrel is correct) with considerable holster wear, but no obvious pitting. I'll stick to my figure. I'd never sell a family heirloom, though.


I'll pay $2500 for that pistol all day long :) ...

Walt

[Big Jim]

I have been corrected by other members of the family.. Dad was on the Yorktown and lost his ship at the battle of Midway. Anyway that is in the memory of others here and I must bow to their memory rather than mine.
I wonder how one goes about documenting the A1's history?
Big JIm Miller

[Big Jim]

I intend to take the A1 apart and photograph the innards and all the markings.. I will be too busy to do that chore untill Monday. At which time I will repost here whatever I find that may be of interest.
Big JIm Miller

[wjkuleck]

I have been corrected by other members of the family.. Dad was on the Yorktown and lost his ship at the battle of Midway. Anyway that is in the memory of others here and I must bow to their memory rather than mine.
I wonder how one goes about documenting the A1's history?
Big JIm Miller

Get a copy of his Service History.

Regards,

Walt

[Big Jim]

Ok so here's what I did. I took it as far apart as I could and cleaned her up and oiled her real good. My son says the serial number is on the hammer or trigger, he took it apart yesterday, but I couldn't get that area apart.
The markings on the A1 are as follows, except for the trigger and hammer.

Barrel: marked "colt 45 auto on the left side of the latch and there is a "G" directly in front of the latch.

The slide as posted and there is also a "P" in front of the rear sight.

Frame: "CSR" above the clip release. "P" below same relase. Guard has "T" above a triangle with a "P" inside the triangle. The other side of the guard has "69" on it.

That is all I could find as I couldn't understand how to get the hammer and trigger out without more force than I allowed myself.

The barrel is VERY clean and bright without any pitting.. after cleaning with oil and a small rag.

I'm outta here in an hour or so and will return Monday.
Big JIm

[scott53]

First, I would never let that pistol out of the family. Second, I sell collectible US martial arms for a living and over the years have specialized in selling those arms with a provenance, including John Garand’s M1 rifle s/n 1000000. It is my experience that provenance adds 25 to 100 percent to the price of a firearm. The better the provenance and the more significant the event(s) that an arm was at increase the percentage. In my professional opinion, a M1911A1 properly documented to the battle of Midway is a 100 percent add on.

Scott Duff

[Steuermann]

Sounds like it's all original. With the slide to the rear, take a pencil point and push the firing about 1/4" deeper into the slide. A little downward pressure on the firing pin retainer will cause it to move toward the bottom of the slide and it can be withdrawn while you slowly relieve the pressure on the firing pin spring. Beneath the retainer, there will be a series of numbers that should be the same as the serial number on the frame. Any official documentation from the time your father was issued the Colt would be a real plus.

Great piece of history!

[Jim Watson]

But does family recollection constitute provenance?

Dad's service record is not going to list the serial number of his sidearm, is it?

[wjkuleck]

Yes.

If son affirms in front of a notary that this was his father's pistol, and the GI sock has been retained, then the service record works.

Regards,

Walt

[Big Jim]

Sounds like it's all original. With the slide to the rear, take a pencil point and push the firing about 1/4" deeper into the slide. A little downward pressure on the firing pin retainer will cause it to move toward the bottom of the slide and it can be withdrawn while you slowly relieve the pressure on the firing pin spring. Beneath the retainer, there will be a series of numbers that should be the same as the serial number on the frame. Any official documentation from the time your father was issued the Colt would be a real plus.

Great piece of history!

Thanks.. Did that and the numbers are corect under there.

Big Jim

[Scott Gahimer]

First, welcome to the board. Thanks for sharing the photos and story.

When anyone asks what the value of a pistol is, I think we generally need to consider the pistol for what it is. The story is something separate. Stories, like pistols, are valued subjectively.

However, we can pretty well judge the condition of the pistol, based on the photos provided. The pistol appears to be about what I would rate at 65-75% condition. Browning in the finish equates to the absence of original finish.

There is plenty of bare metal showing on the pistol, and the grips are heavily worn. Upon close inspection firsthand, the pistol might rate well less than 70%.

I agree most collectors attach value primarily based on originality and condition, and less because of the stories attached to them. "Buy the gun, not the story" is a golden rule to most collectors.

There are those who value stories more than others. But I think we're better off here on the board to stick with discussing the pistols. When we start discussing family stories without official documentation for a specific pistol listed by serial number, there's nowhere to go except down. We do not all agree on what constitutes genuine provenance, and there will always be those who don't "buy" the story.

I think it is fair to say collectors who don't have a specific variation may value it higher than others who do have it, or in some cases more than one. But that doesn't change the condition of the pistol.

I think the value of that pistol, without any story and laying on a gun show table for sale, would be about $2500-3500 tops when actually sold. Most collectors I know, who will spend more than that on a pistol, expect more in return as the price goers up. Those who have $5K to spend, for example...they usually already have a nice specimen...or will hold out for a nicer piece.

I think the family story should have the most value inside the family, and I hope the pistol always remains with the family.

Attached are photos of a couple 1940 Colt pistols for comparison. The first pistol with the plastic grips is one of the first 1940 pistols and has the rare Coltrock grips.

The other pistol is later and is specifically documented in the National Archives as being a U.S. Navy pistol.

The finish is original on both pistols and all parts are correct. The background and lighting in the two photos makes the color of the pistols appear differently, but they are original and identical to each other.

http://i39.tinypic.com/35akdpj.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2wm3xb8.jpg

[1saxman]

Jim; in your original post you mentioned 'matching numbers'. There are no numbered parts except the frame and slide (on early Colts). Since you didn't say any more about numbered parts after you actually saw the insides of the pistol, I'll assume they don't exist and the statement amounted to hearsay. The pistol is wonderful and the family history makes it priceless to your family. I would preserve it as you are doing, and prepare a small file for it containing the story and any applicable photos, including pictures of the pistol, serial number, etc., and keep this separate from the gun. You may want to discuss it with your insurance agent, but eventually you'll have to put a dollar value on it that will hold up under scrutiny in the event of loss. I personally would guess that number to be about $5K. If you could ever find a record tying both the pistol and your father to the Yorktown, you could probably double that number.

[rondawg]

I'm just curious, but if it was in storage for that long, how did the grips get so worn?

[Big Jim]

Jim; in your original post you mentioned 'matching numbers'. There are no numbered parts except the frame and slide (on early Colts). Since you didn't say any more about numbered parts after you actually saw the insides of the pistol, I'll assume they don't exist and the statement amounted to hearsay. The pistol is wonderful and the family history makes it priceless to your family. I would preserve it as you are doing, and prepare a small file for it containing the story and any applicable photos, including pictures of the pistol, serial number, etc., and keep this separate from the gun. You may want to discuss it with your insurance agent, but eventually you'll have to put a dollar value on it that will hold up under scrutiny in the event of loss. I personally would guess that number to be about $5K. If you could ever find a record tying both the pistol and your father to the Yorktown, you could probably double that number.

I'm sure it will come to light. I will post it here when found. as for the inside numbers.
On the trigger gaurd there is a 69 for the builders mark. On the frame in front of the hammer is a tripple struck CSR which is the same as the double struck CSR on the righthand side of the frame. Also there is a G indicating a goverment contract. Also the barrel has the same G in the correct location. Both the frame and slide have matching numbers. As suspected it is all original.
I have simply been too busy to get more paper information such as his service record.
Big JIm :geek:

[Scott Gahimer]

The "69" mark on the right side of the trigger guard bow is an "assembler's" mark.

The "triple struck" CSR marking on top of the frame is actually one "strike" with a couple of "bounces".

Same holds true for the CSR final inspection on the left side of the pistol. We commonly refer to sides from the users standpoint with the pistol in hand.

I don't recall if you've already shared information on the magazine on this board, or the others. Is it pinned base, or welded base? Full blued or 2-tone. Are there any markings on the magazine baseplate...top or bottom?

Thanks.

[Big Jim]

The magazine is full blued and faintly I can find four pins in the sides of it which seem to hold the bottom on. It is marked COLT45 AUTO.
So far I have found there were only six thousand pistols made that year (1940) and it seems to be the last year of the blued goverment contracts. If so this one is within 10 numbers of the last blued A1's.
If nothing else I am having a great learning experience with this A1.
Big Jim Miller

[Johnny Peppers]

Big Jim,
Not sure where you got your information on the last blued 1911A1, but the 1911A1 was blued up into the 734,000 serial number range. The last blued 1911A1 was shipped July 18, 1941.

[Scott Gahimer]

The magazine is full blued and faintly I can find four pins in the sides of it which seem to hold the bottom on. It is marked COLT45 AUTO.
So far I have found there were only six thousand pistols made that year (1940) and it seems to be the last year of the blued goverment contracts. If so this one is within 10 numbers of the last blued A1's.
If nothing else I am having a great learning experience with this A1.
Big Jim Miller

Your magazine is a commercial magazine if the bottom of the baseplate is polished bright. If the base is sandblasted, it is a commercial magazine that was transferred over for military use. Those comm/mil transferred mags typically were not converted and transferred until sometime in late 1941 or early 1942. They were shipped in some pistols from that time up until about the Spring of 1943, at which time they were depleted.

Not sure where your info is coming from, but there were only 4696 pistols in 1940...not 6000. there were about 6000 CSR inspected pistols, but some of those were 1941 pistols.

Johnny's info on the blued/Parkerized finish switch in 1941 is correct, too. Learning can be a lot of fun. Glad to help by providing good info.

[Big Jim]

Big Jim,
Not sure where you got your information on the last blued 1911A1, but the 1911A1 was blued up into the 734,000 serial number range. The last blued 1911A1 was shipped July 18, 1941.

I read 1940 was the last year of blue procudtion.. I am sure you know more bout it than the guy I read elsewhere.
Thanks for the reply.
Big Jim M

[Big Jim]

Your magazine is a commercial magazine if the bottom of the baseplate is polished bright. If the base is sandblasted, it is a commercial magazine that was transferred over for military use. Those comm/mil transferred mags typically were not converted and transferred until sometime in late 1941 or early 1942. They were shipped in some pistols from that time up until about the Spring of 1943, at which time they were depleted.

Not sure where your info is coming from, but there were only 4696 pistols in 1940...not 6000. there were about 6000 CSR inspected pistols, but some of those were 1941 pistols.

Johnny's info on the blued/Parkerized finish switch in 1941 is correct, too. Learning can be a lot of fun. Glad to help by providing good info.


I mistakenly used the 6K CSR for the amount of A1's built. I actually have the correct information but misposted the 6K number.

I am looking at the magazine. It is Blue all over. Not sandblasted. Has what appears to be sanding marks rinning the length of it on all sides. The bottom with the COLT 45 AUTO on it is also blue with sanding marks running the long way. These sanding marks are less noticable than the ones on the body of the magazine.

I'm wondering when and where this A1 was shipped.. Anyone know where to look?

Many, many thanks guys for the responces.

Big Jim M

[Scott Gahimer]

Your pistol was in the 2nd largest of 8 different 1940 shipments of CSR inspected Colts.
Shipped Dec. 27, 1940, as 1 of 1,025 pistols (720953-721977), addressed to the Commanding Officer, Springfield Armory.

That doesn't indicate your pistol was for the Commanding Officer. That was just the way the shipment is listed in the Colt factory shipping recrds, according to the shipping records listed in Charles W. Clawson's 1991 book Colt .45 Service Pistols.

[Big Jim]

That means if they shipped by UPS the armory could have received the shipment the next day.. But I digress.

Now does the description I gave of the magazine tell you anything?
Big Jim