1911 Serial Number Location

[jellyroll]

I have just recently inherited my grandfathers 1911. This was a gun that I always remember seeing on his end table locked and loaded and one that my mother also remembers when she was a kid seeing locked and loaded. Needless to say this gun has made impressions on many family members for many years. (I will be posting pictures soon).
I was probably the only family member that would drool every time I walked by the pistol even as a young child, and I guess that's why I now have this. I am new to the 1911 pistols, and have been trying to track down where the serial numbers are listed. It is a nickel plated pistol with the inspectors mark of "S17" (Eagle's Head). The only other noticeable numbers are near the bottom of the trigger guard (near the magazine release) which is stamped "46". The last date listed on ithe slide is "Aug 19 1913". The opposite side of the slide states "Model of 1911.U.S.Army", so I'm assuming it's not a commercial issue. I have taken the gun apart and can not find any other numbers, and nothing appears to be filed off either. The gun is very smooth and has the appearance of a gun that was used a lot (both being holstered and shot). If I'm looking in the wrong areas let me know, or if pics are needed first then tell me to hurry up.

Thanks - Jellyroll

[Hawkmoon]

The serial number should be on the right side of the frame, just beneath the slide and just aft of the slide stop pin.

Military M1911s were not nickel plated. It's entirely possible that the serial number was ground off when the pistol was polished for plating. This is a problem for you, because there is a Federal law (which many states also echo in their statutes) that makes it a felony to be in POSSESSION of a firearm with an altered or defaced serial number. It's also illegal to remove or to alter a serial number, but the real "gotcha" here is that the wording of the law states that whoever is found in possession of a firearm so altered or defaced is LEGALLY PRESUMED to be the person who performed the alteration or defacement. That's you, unfortunately.

Now ... the saving grace is that the BATFE, in an unusual display of common sense, seems to recognize that a lot of GIs brought home 1911s after the wars and ground off the serial numbers. The BATFE isn't going to raise an issue over it if you approach them to "legitimize" the pistol. They have a procedure to assign a replacement serial number, which you must then have a gunsmith approved by the BATFE apply to the pistol. He then certifies to the BATFE that the gun has been serailized, and he then returns it to you.

Contact our forum member Wichaka for further information. He is an LEO who has been involved in the process for other owners.

[Rich-D]

If you post the Serial Number like this 134XXX we can give you a definitive date. However, I am not home to check my Collectors Guide by Clawson.

As a temporary aid. See: http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911infopage.htm

Best of Luck!
Rich

[jellyroll]

After closer examination I can say that this area appears to have a different look than the rest of the pistol. Thanks for the heads up on the serial number issue. I'm sure my granddad is laughing right now.
I'll post some pics tomorrow after I get the camera charged. I guess I'll need to post a new topic of "Help me guess the Age of this 1911"!

Thanks

[Hawkmoon]

Here's a photo from another recent thread showing an M1911 with the serial number. That's where you should be looking.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/enginebill/100_2712a.jpg

Photos may help some of our experts help you guess the age of your pistol, but please do not brush off what I wrote. Now that you possess that pistol, you are committing a Federal felony each and every day you don't get the serial number matter dealt with. The BATFE won't fry you if you approach them proactively to correct the problem, but they will fry you if they find you in possession of a firearm with a removed serial number. And it may be a violation of your state's laws, as well, meaning if you happen to take it to a range to try out and a police officer happens to look at it, he could arrest you on the spot.

This is not something to be laughed about ... especially when there IS an avenue available to correcting the situation.

[Scott Gahimer]

I'll post some pics tomorrow after I get the camera charged. I guess I'll need to post a new topic of "Help me guess the Age of this 1911"!Thanks

Welcome to the forum.

Be sure not to start a new thread on the same pistol. Just post your photos and any other comments here in this same thread. Looking forward to see your pistol.

[jellyroll]

This is the 5th attempt to post a reply with pics as indicated through the FAQ. I'm a little slow.

By the way, thanks for the welcome and information on the serial number - I'm not brushing this off. I don't want to end up in jail nor have this pistol confiscated.

Here are the pics. (I hope).

Jellyroll

[Rich-D]

Jellyroll, The Federal Government turned a blind eye to US Property 1911's many years ago. Even if Government should changed it's stance, we are decades past the statute of limitations. Plus, a large number of 1911's were bought lawfully after the war. So no need to worry!

BTW: Your pic's are only viewable to you. As the links you provided lead us to our own accounts. So Delete them!

1. Open your photo bucket account.

2. Place your cursor on the Pic you desire to post. An IMG Code will appear below it.

3. Click on the IMG Code, than right click inside of the post where you want to place it.

Good Luck!
Rich

[Tom]

Here's a generic link to the user's album:

http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/

[texagun]

.... the links you provided lead us to our own accounts.
Rich


No wonder his guns looked just like mine! :p

[jellyroll]

Alright, I think I got it now.

How are these?

http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No1.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No1.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No10.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No10.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No11.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No11.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No12.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No12.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No13.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No13.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No14.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No14.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No15.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No15.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No2.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No2.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No3.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No3.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No5.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No5.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No6.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No6.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No7.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No7.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No8.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No8.jpg)
http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/th_Colt1911No9.jpg (http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii329/bmjehle/?action=view&current=Colt1911No9.jpg)

[jellyroll]

And I'm already aware that the grips are not original. But, they don't feel that bad and they make up my memory of this gun. There's a hand written price on the back of them that reads $2.99 - seems a little high. ;) This might have been the closest my grand-dad could have gotten to pearl handled grips.

Jellyroll

[Hawkmoon]

The area where the serial number should be looks smoother than the surrounding area. I feel reasonably certain that it was "scrubbed," which is a problem.

It's a shame that what appears to be a complete M1911 was plated like that, but having it stripped and refinished would not add much value to the pistol. It'll still be refinished, not original. Since the way it is reflects the way your grandfather had it, I think you should keep it that way to honor his memory.

I'm sure you're tempted to shoot it. Before you do so, please read the sticky at the top of the "US Government Pistols" discussion area entitled "Should I shoot my ...?"

[jellyroll]

I'm unfamiliar with the re-finishing process. If this was re-finished, would the original finish be able to "poke" through? I'm curious about the black around the end of the barrel that is visible under the nickel. I've also been super careful with the cleaner I've used on this gun (Blue Wonder), since I didn't want a copper solvent to damage what I thought to be an original nickel plating.

Next question, since this was refinished (especially in nickel) and the serial number scrubbed, could someone have been attempting a cover up (not that I'm blaming my grand-dad)? He was old school honest, but I'm curious if this might have been something that was given to him as collateral or something. The story of how he got the gun is unknown, but I'll be asking some questions to family members to get more history.

Jellyroll

[Hawkmoon]

I doubt the nickel was for the purpose of covering up the removal of the serial number. Some folks just like the look of nickel plated pistols, and when you could buy surplus 1911s for $25 it didn't seem as sacrilegious to plate one as it seems today. There's a (badly) nickel plated Remington Rand M1911A1 in the display case at the local gun shop right now. It's been there for awhile, and I expect it'll be there a good while longer.

I think yours was just badly plated. The plating appears to be very thin, and the dark areas are where the plating was abraded away every time it was taken out of the holster and put away again.

[jellyroll]

Do the pics show any markings/clues that might indicate the age of this gun?

Jellyroll

[enginebill]

The arsenal mark just above the magazine release is the same as mine and mine was made in 1918.

[Hawkmoon]

It's an M1911, not an M1911A1. The position of the rampant colt in the middle of the slide places it probably in the latter half of 1918 (approximately).

I just noticed that there is no "United States Property" marking, either. That was probably ground off at the same time as the serial number.

Here's a photo of Colt's current WW1 reproduction, showing where the US Property rollmark should be. Note that the position of the colt on the repro is at the back of the slide.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/reviews/ColtO1918/Picture004.jpg

You might find the entire review of the WW1 reproduction to be of interest:

http://ezine.m1911.org/ColtO1918_frame.htm