Recoil Rods

[dukewam45]

Placing this in the Rock Island Forum, maybe it should be somewhere else, but I am a proud owner of a RIA Government and I am also a new guy here and not sure where to go with this. Wondering if any other RIA owners or any other 1911's have seen this same condition.

My pistol does not like the long recoil spring rod. With this rod, accuracy goes all to heck, and I am lucky to shoot 6" at 25 yards. With the stock short rod and the same spring I average about 2 1/2 to 3 inches at 25 yards, my best being 1 5/8 inch. Spring is a 18 1/2 Wolff. No other conditions and same ammo. Needless to say I am not a believer in the fancy SS long rods. Maybe it is just my pistol but I got a feeling it is not and others have seen the same thing. This RIA is a fun gun, about 1800 rounds with one hiccup which did not sound just right and I think was a short round.

Talk to me about the long rods. Thanks

[doctruptwn]

Duke, you won't find too many friends of the Full Length Guide Rod. Most consider it a waste of money and obviously your gun doesn't like it.

[Joni Lynn]

If your gun doesn't like it then you won't spend money trying other ones.
For the most part I find they do very little after the initial part of transferring money from my purse to the merchants wallet.

[dukewam45]

No, there will be no more full length recoil rods for me. I should have included in the original posting this question. Why do you think the full length rod so drastically affects the pistols accuracy? It does make a lot of difference and I guess I am assuming it has to do with the way the spring pressure is placed on the barrel.

Duke

[doctruptwn]

Well there is probably some logic in that without a custom spring for the guide rod, the gun is slightly out of battery or something to that effect who knows. The theory behind it working, is the spring doesn't get kinked up. The problem with this logic is, it worked for 80 of the last 100 years without it, why wouldn't it for the next 100 years. Now with a custom job or a compact that's a diffent story but your also talking about a variant of the original design also.

[Rusty Guns]

At this time I have two Rocks.
A Tactical with a FLGR, and a GI. without.
They both work fine.
I tried to put one in the GI, and it just didn't like it. So I left it alone.
I also Have two Springfields, The Black Stainless came with a FLGR, and my Mil-Spec, without.
I put one in the Mil-Spec, and can not tell any difference in it.
All I can see that it does is Transfer Cash to the Seller!!!

Rusty

[John]

If the guide rod was installed by you, then it is rather possible that you didn't install it properly or that it is interfering with the proper operation of the pistol. The guide rod shouldn't be affecting the accuracy of your pistol, at least not in such a way. Used in a pistol with very loose frame/slide tolerances, it could be of benefit, but I've never heard of a properly installed guide rod making a pistol less accurate.

[Hawkmoon]

Why do you think the full length rod so drastically affects the pistols accuracy? It does make a lot of difference and I guess I am assuming it has to do with the way the spring pressure is placed on the barrel.

With either guide rod, long or short, there should be NO spring pressure on the barrel. The back end of the spring pushes on the recoil spring guide flange, which is seated against the impact abutment surface in the frame. The front end of the spring pushes on the recoil spring plug, which in turn pushes on the slide ... not the barrel.

[log man]

With either guide rod, long or short, there should be NO spring pressure on the barrel. The back end of the spring pushes on the recoil spring guide flange, which is seated against the impact abutment surface in the frame. The front end of the spring pushes on the recoil spring plug, which in turn pushes on the slide ... not the barrel.
:confused:
And the slide breech face bears on the barrel hood with whatever spring pressure is pushing on the slide. The barrel stops it's forward movement under this spring pressure when it hits the slide stop pin and that pressure is maintained while in battery..

LOG

[Hawkmoon]

:confused:
And the slide breech face bears on the barrel hood with whatever spring pressure is pushing on the slide. The barrel stops it's forward movement under this spring pressure when it hits the slide stop pin and that pressure is maintained while in battery..

LOG
Agreed. To a point. But the spring is not pushing on the barrel. And I can't see any way in which a change to the guide rod could possibly significantly alter the way the slide pushed the barrel into battery. I wasn't trying to say that nothing pushes on the barrel, I was correcting the statement that the guide rod changes the way the spring pushes on the barrel.

And once the lugs lock up, there is often a gap of a couple of thousandths between the breech face and the barrel hood. In battery, it's the locking lugs that maintain the pressure between the slide and barrel, not the barrel hood.

[log man]

Agreed. But the spring is not pushing on the barrel. And I can't see any way in which a change to the guide rod could possibly significantly alter the way the slide pushed the barrel into battery. I wasn't trying to say that nothing pushes on the barrel, I was correcting the statement that the guide rod changes the way the spring pushes on the barrel.
Okay, I agree with that. I believe the reason a FLGR may have a negative effect on the gun is when the guide rod head is not registering on the abutement surface squarely and causing a side load on the slide which could vary from shot to shot. Purely speculation on my part, but have seen guide rods that wore on one side and consider this a distraction from accuracy. Despite what sounds like a disapproval of FLGR I use them in all 13 of my 1911s.

LOG

[log man]

And once the lugs lock up, there is often a gap of a couple of thousandths between the breech face and the barrel hood. In battery, it's the locking lugs that maintain the pressure between the slide and barrel, not the barrel hood.


Evidence that there is a gap between hood and breech face when in battery is evidence of an over cut hood. The slide lug recesses are larger then the barrel lugs by up to .020" and are not meant to hold the slide when in battery, that is the job of the hood in a properly fitted gun. When the gun fires the gap should not grow to more than .005" or .006"and occurs due to the barrel and slide pulling in opposite directions, this movement is in no way an aid to accuracy and the reason that a hood should be fitted to trap the barrel and slide together with zero to minimum movement. A piece of paper between hood and the breech face should stop the barrel from going into battery.

LOG

[niemi24s]

Don't know a thing about FLGR's but, assuming the standard recoil coil spring plug is not used, could it's absence remove some stabilizing influence between the bushing and slide - and reduce the accuracy of the OP's gun?

[log man]

Don't know a thing about FLGR's but, assuming the standard recoil coil spring plug is not used, could it's absence remove some stabilizing influence between the bushing and slide - and reduce the accuracy of the OP's gun?
The FLGR does use a plug that takes the place of the std. one and stabilizes the bushing in the same way.

LOG

[niemi24s]

Hi Log:Don't know a thing about FLGR's. . .Thanx: now I do! :p

Cheers

[John]

(Thread hi-jacking but....)

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are three areas that push the barrel into lock-up. The barrel hood and two points to the left and right of the chamber, which are pushed forward by corresponding areas on the breech face.

Am I correct in assuming that all these three areas should be contacted at the same time?

[Iron bottom]

Some full length guide rods do not fit in the frame properly as mentioned in another post. I make sure the head fits properly to the frame, faces off correctly with the abutment and does not wobble.

The one piece rods, if too short, can cause problems. I know all of you have probably seen photos of the plug tunnel machined off center. I am not sure, but do not think these slides would be a good candidate for a full length guide rod rod, since the bushing end of the rod would not be centered with the frame, and with the flange probably not seating properly, would most likely wear on one side.

I always use the two piece and fit it the best I can. I don't have any trouble with the two piece guide rods in any way, shape, form or fashion. HK, CZ, Sig and Glock use full length guide rods. These companies are not stupid and have no problems with their products as far as guide rods are concerned. I think any problems with a full length guide rod probably originate with an out of spec firearm. Of course, YMMV.

[log man]

(Thread hi-jacking but....)

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are three areas that push the barrel into lock-up. The barrel hood and two points to the left and right of the chamber, which are pushed forward by corresponding areas on the breech face.

Am I correct in assuming that all these three areas should be contacted at the same time?
No, John that isn't correct, but it almost looks that way. Only the barrel hood extension end should touch the breech face at any time. The sides of the hood should not touch either.

LOG

[niemi24s]

. . .there are three areas that push the barrel into lock-up. The barrel hood and two points to the left and right of the chamber, which are pushed forward by corresponding areas on the breech face.

Am I correct in assuming that all these three areas should be contacted at the same time?I'd say there are three areas that can push the barrel into lock-up.

But trying to get all three of these areas on the barrel to contact the breechface (hood) and both breechface guide blocks (chamber face) would be very, very difficult.

The average Gov't Model (USGI) 1911 slide drives the barrel into battery by contact between the breechface guide blocks and the chamber face - the hood never touches the breechface. The hood is "short" by about 0.005 or 0.006".

Barrels made for fitting, however, have longer hoods to begin with so the hood can be trimmed to allow the barrel to fit in the slide with little fore-aft play. These barrels will be driven into battery by contact between the hood and breechface. The chamber face is "short" by a few thousandths.

Trimming a single hood would be much, much easier than trying to trim two areas on the chamber face. And trimming all three?

With enough time and patience it probably is possible to get contact at all three surfaces, but I think it would be an absolute nightmare. And an unnecessary one, IMHO.

Cheers

[John]

Well, that's what my gunsmith says, all three points should make contact at the same time. I do not know, I do not consider myself an expert in barrel fitting.

[log man]

Well, that's what my gunsmith says, all three points should make contact at the same time. I do not know, I do not consider myself an expert in barrel fitting.


Three points of contact, Hood, Lower lug feet, Barrel at muzzle. That's the three that makes sense. :)

LOG

[niemi24s]

Hi Log:

Wrong three contact points.Three points of contact, Hood, Lower lug feet, Barrel at muzzle. That's the three that makes sense.In post #16, John was referring to the barrel hood and the two chamber face surfaces on either side of the hood as the three areas where the slide should drive the barrel up into battery.
Maybe John's gunsmith does achieve contact at all three of these locations when fitting a barrel, but if so he must have a tremendous amount of patience. And, unless the chamber faces were also left long (like the hood), how would the headspace ever get made OK - unless the barrel was short chambered?

[log man]

Hi Log:

Wrong three contact points.In post #16, John was referring to the barrel hood and the two chamber face surfaces on either side of the hood as the three areas where the slide should drive the barrel up into battery.
Maybe John's gunsmith does achieve contact at all three of these locations when fitting a barrel, but if so he must have a tremendous amount of patience. And, unless the chamber faces were also left long (like the hood), how would the headspace ever get made OK - unless the barrel was short chambered?
Believe me, I got that, and was giving him three points that should be in contact in a well tuned 1911.

Three points of contact, Hood, Lower lug feet, Barrel at muzzle. That's the three that makes sense.

The last sentence makes that statement clear. At least to me. The barrel chamber faces should not touch, it is the hood extension that is inline with the upper lug engagement and the only one of the three that should touch in a gun such as John owns.

LOG

[niemi24s]

Hi Log:Believe me, I got that, and was giving him three points that should be in contact in a well tuned 1911.OK, now I see (finally) what you were saying.

I suppose it wouldn't really hurt anything if the chamber face did contact the BFGB's, but as the barrel tilts up about ½° when going into battery, seems like something would have to either lose contact along the way or just attain three point contact when finally in battery.

Unless all those surfaces were curved to accommodate the barrel's tilting. (now that's just plain silly, huh?) :D

Cheers

[log man]

Hi Log:OK, now I see (finally) what you were saying.

I suppose it wouldn't really hurt anything if the chamber face did contact the BFGB's, but as the barrel tilts up about ½° when going into battery, seems like something would have to either lose contact along the way or just attain three point contact when finally in battery.

Unless all those surfaces were curved to accommodate the barrel's tilting. (now that's just plain silly, huh?) :D

Cheers
Well, yes. :) Now consider the barrel fitting directions if the barrel faces where supposed to hit along with the hood extension. If the hood is too long and does not allow the barrel upper lugs to engage, reduce the hood to the dimension of the slide from the breech face to the first lug, okay. Now are the breech faces also contacting, that would be a strange coincidence, say the answer is obviously no, so now we continue to reduce the hood length (even though it is going in to lock up) until it can be determined that the barrel faces, both of them which means we may have to reduce one barrel face to get both to contact and to maintain contact with the hood. No, this doesn't make sense.

Sarcasm, is not intended, but a result of the topic. :) What's additionally funny is once the cartridge is fired there isn't any contact between hood and slide under pressure as the barrel and slide are pulling in the opposite direction any way.

LOG

[niemi24s]

Now consider the barrel fitting directions if the barrel faces where supposed to hit along with the hood extension.Oooh. Little beads of perspiration pop out on my forehead just thinking about trying to do that! :D

Cheers

[John]

But hey, a smith in Greece says so. He should know better than, Schuemann, Kart, Bar-sto, Stormlake, KKM, Nowlin...................

Indeed Log Man sarcasm is not needed. I assume, you with your huge experience is way better than my poor gunsmith here, but remember, I can't use your services. And how on earth do you make assumptions about what kind of a gun I have? Have you ever seen it?

[log man]

Indeed Log Man sarcasm is not needed. I assume, you with your huge experience is way better than my poor gunsmith here, but remember, I can't use your services. And how on earth do you make assumptions about what kind of a gun I have? Have you ever seen it?

Hey Log Man, I've been proclaiming this mod every since I first saw it in my Talon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/Talon/Pict0077.jpg

Actually, the notch doesn't have to be so deep.





No, John I haven't seen your Talon, but you did allow for me to see the slide stop once and was my pleasure. Insults are not and where not intended. I agree with there's more than one way to do things right. And to each his own. When I post isn't it my responsibility, duty, to express my experiences and understandings as I see them, so for me and others to gain a better understanding from one another. I have never claimed to be very experienced, nor a gun or pistolsmith, nor do I hold an FFL and take in guns for a living. So know it now John, it isn't huge. But, I do pay attention about the things that interest me. And as long as you are willing, I will share that which I have learned with anyone that seeks it.

LOG

[John]

It's your responsibility to post what you know or believe to be the truth. And I have no problem with you saying that the three points fitting is not correct. What I hate is your sarcasm, please keep it for places where such attitude is acceptable.

If my gunsmith was a member here, you would have received a Personal Attack warning.

[niemi24s]

Hi Log Man:The barrel chamber faces should not touch, it is the hood extension that is inline with the upper lug engagement and the only one of the three that should touch in a gun. . . After looking at the blueprints for the slide & barrel, it is indeed true that the barrel chamber face of a hard-fit barrel should/will not touch the BFGB's if:

• the pertinent dimensions are both somewhere within their allowable tolerance ranges and
• the hard-fit barrel's hood has been trimmed for zero end-shake when in battery.

Under these conditions, there will be a gap of 0.005 to 0.020 inch between the chamber faces and the BFGB's and they will never, ever contact each other. But. . .

. . .pretend for the moment that we have a slide where the BFGB's are a bit too close to the face of the #1 radial locking lug and we buy a hard-fit barrel whose chamber face is a bit too far from the face of its #1 radial locking lug. But, we don't know those things yet.

We then carefully do all the slide & barrel locking lug measurements and find no need for any adjustments. Yippee! We then trim the hood (so the barrel will fit in the slide) and discover we have [ready for this?] simultaneous contact between the:

• #1 lugs of slide and barrel
• hood and breechface
• chamber faces and BFGB's

True, this "shouldn't" be - but the slide & barrel are both a bit out of spec - so we do indeed have it.

Q: Is there any need to dress down the chamber face to eliminate contact with the BFGB's?

[Doncha hate it when I mind-game this stuff? :D ]

Cheers

[log man]

Hey niemi,

If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. But do suspect that peening would occur eventually. It's like if the barrel ramp is overhanging the frame ramp and vertical and runs smooth as a what ever, is there a problem? No. But the real question is, is this the way or direction the fitting should take?

Weren't we talking about guide rods? Oops!

LOG

[niemi24s]

But the real question is, is this the way or direction the fitting should take?Heaven's no!Weren't we talking about guide rods? Oops!Guide rods! Guide rods? Oh, yeah.....guide rods. :)

Cheers