Should I shoot my original USGI M1911?

[Scott Gahimer]

As you contemplete firing this piece, please consider that it only takes one round for something unforeseen to occur, and the monetary and historical value may plummet like a rock.

These pistols are not what I consider fragile, and they were built to be tough...but that was 67 years ago when this pistol was built. The boards all have their share of posts where guys are asking where they can come up with a proper front sight, or other small part that failed during firing.

Your pistol, based on it's appearance, did not have the best storage over the years. Front sights have been known to break loose from their staking, even though they did not appear loose to begin with. When they do fly off, they are seldom ever found. And even if they are found, the pistol has then been altered once repaired. Slide stop pins have been reported to have broken on some pistols.

Stress fractures occasionally occur on slides and frames. There are a variety of things that might occur when any pistol is fired. On a non-collectible piece, that's no big deal. However, on a collectible it is.

One of the primary reasons value is higher on a collectible is originality. Many purist collectors, myself included, prefer pistols that are original and unaltered since they left military service. We prefer pieces that have not been turned into shooters since leaving the military.

Poor storage is not generally associated with military storage. While those pistols were in military use, they were properly cared for. Even though your pistol shows aging and browning from poor storage, it may still have additional value if it hasn't been used since brought home.

Most pistols I've acquired from veterans and their families are in exceptionally nice condition. Most vets have told me they never fired their pistols after they brought them home. They put them up. I think they saw their pistols as something to be preserved. No doubt, some of the fellows could look at their pistols and remember instances from the past.

There is no history to be made shooting an old collectible military pistol. We can have just as much fun shooting an altered (refinished and/or mis-matched) non-collectible military shooter. They all shoot and feel the same. I would encourage you to pick up a shooter grade M1911A1 to run a couple boxes through each year and keep this one just like it is.

Obviously, you are not a collector and may not agree with my way of thinking. 30 years ago I wasn't a collector of these pistols either. I had seen and shot plenty of them while in the service. Things have changed since then. I'd feel guilty if I didn't at least tell you to put this pistol up.

Part of what makes a pistol collectible is the status we give it. Once we turn one into a shooter, it remains a shooter forever. At the rate of 100 rounds a year, that may be more rounds in less than one year than was ever fired through that pistol while in military use, especially if it was brought home after WWII. We didn't fight the war with pistols. Most were barely used.

I understand I may be in the minority with my opinion, and I respect your rights of ownership and everyone else's right to their opinion. If you decide to shoot the pistol, blast away and have a good time (seriously, I mean that). I am proud to be one of the reasons we still have original, unaltered pieces to admire and discuss today, and I thank those before me who preserved the pieces I have managed to collect.

[nightlog]

Well, I emailed the Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum in reference to shooting my '41 and got a response from one of the curators. Here is his response:


Thank you for your inquiry. The folks you refer to may be cautioning you
not to fire the weapon for historical reasons, not mechanical reasons. The
Colt 1911 is an exceptionally rugged weapon. It is still in front line
service, in places where the boots-on-the-ground get their choice.

That said, please keep in mind that every weapon, and every part of every
weapon, has a finite service life. For guns, this is usually expressed in
the number of rounds fired. Except for the springs, there is little in the
1911 that is age sensitive, so most failures are the result of cumulative
stresses of firing the weapon. Anything mechanically made will eventually
break. Here at the museum, we are prohibited from firing any of our weapons
for that very reason, because it is our responsibility to preserve them for
posterity.

From the wording of your question, I assume you know how to maintain your
pistol in good working order. A well maintained 1911 should be good for
thousands of rounds. Keep in mind that the stress from each shot is
cumulative in the components of the gun. Also remember that without
x-raying the components for defects, it is impossible to know the actual
condition of the components. In all probability, you also do not have the
complete firing history of your weapon, so you cannot determine the precise
firing count. Your pistol could fail on the next round, or be good for
another 5,000 rounds or more, or anything in between.

The real life probability is that you can fire the 1911 as much as you wish,
so long as you maintain and inspect it properly, and that your 1911 has a
good chance of out-living you. Few handguns have ever had the life
expectancy of this weapon. In firing your weapon, though, you must accept
the risk that any given round may be its last.

Ask yourself, if the weapon does fail on you, worst case, can you still
mount it on the wall, say "well, it had a great run!", and still be proud to
have it in your collection? Your answer to this question pretty much
answers your email.

If we can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me
or any member of the staff.

Respectfully,

Jim Petrie
410-278-3602

For Ed Heasley
Roy E. (Ed) Heasley
Deputy Director/Curator
U.S. Army Ordnance Museum
Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD 21005-5201


So........................



I put 25 rounds of CCI Blazer through it the other weekend with my father-in-law. It shot flawlessly and was dead-on at 15 yards. I inspected it, cleaned it and put it in the safe. I feel better now and I probably won't be shooting it anytime soon.

(I just had to get this off my chest, Scott!)

[Scott Gahimer]

Well, I emailed the Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum in reference to shooting my '41 and got a response from one of the curators....
(I just had to get this off my chest, Scott!)

Please don't feel any obligation to me. I simply offered my opinion, based on the experiences I've had and heard of in collecting these pistols a long time. As the curator stated, they are not permitted to fire any of their weapons because of historical status and the possibility something might happen. He spoke of the remote chance a failure might occur. We are in agreement there.

While we are not in disagreement on anything he says, his experiences are different than mine. They care for historical pieces that are never fired. I speak with and read the posts of hundreds of people each year who regularly fire their pistols. There are always numerous failures cited there.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It all boils down to the status you assign your pistol. It doesn't matter what I think.

Best regards,
Scott

[Hawkmoon]

I think the letter from Aberdeen pretty well confirms what many people already said, to wit:

That said, please keep in mind that every weapon, and every part of every weapon, has a finite service life. For guns, this is usually expressed in the number of rounds fired. Except for the springs, there is little in the 1911 that is age sensitive, so most failures are the result of cumulative stresses of firing the weapon. Anything mechanically made will eventually break. Here at the museum, we are prohibited from firing any of our weapons for that very reason, because it is our responsibility to preserve them for posterity.

... Keep in mind that the stress from each shot is cumulative in the components of the gun. Also remember that without x-raying the components for defects, it is impossible to know the actual condition of the components. In all probability, you also do not have the complete firing history of your weapon, so you cannot determine the precise firing count. Your pistol could fail on the next round, or be good for another 5,000 rounds or more, or anything in between.

... In firing your weapon, though, you must accept the risk that any given round may be its last.
In other words, you might use your historical M1911A1 for IPSC competition and have it run fine for five years, or you could take it to the range tomorrow and see the slide shatter on the first or second round. The question is, is it worth the gamble? If it is an all-original pistol, once you break it you cannot EVER again have it be all-original. Only you can decide if you wish to take that risk.

The bottom line is, if you break yours, you just make everyone else's a little bit more valuable because there's one less all-original M1911A1 in the world.

[Hawkmoon]

Here are a few photos that show the partial heat treatment of the slides. For some reason, this seems often to show up in photos better than looking at the guns with the naked eye. The harder, heat treated areas are the darker areas at the front end of the slide, and around the slide stop noych in the slide.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee88/physiksgeek/1911A1/P1010023.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee88/physiksgeek/1911A1/P1010032.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/lemoncade/DSC03168.jpg

The following photos are courtesy of John Holbrook. They show the heat treat line very clearly:

http://www.fototime.com/%7B459A5431-C826-410C-B6B7-775D8783EFD7%7D/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/%7B459A5431-C826-410C-B6B7-775D8783EFD7%7D/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/%7B4333712D-ABE6-4641-91B5-B7DA989A963F%7D/picture.JPG


The slide stop notch (also from John Holbrook):

http://www.fototime.com/%7B2FEE1DD9-6016-4CD3-8D01-46249C60F538%7D/picture.JPG


The punch marks for testing hardness (also from John Holbrook):

http://www.fototime.com/%7B93CA42E6-E93A-45F3-93A7-9AFA280C09DB%7D/picture.JPG

[Scott Gahimer]

It probably should be clarified that the hardened areas most often show up slightly darker, however, they sometimes show up lighter, too. Often, hardened areas are difficult to detect.

Additionally, just because a hardened area shows up, that does not necesarily indicate anything about whether the finish is original or not.

On refinished pistols, the hardened areas are often more pronounced in their appearance.

As far as how the hardened areas might apply to this thread and shooting an old pistol, or parts thereof...the hardening process was initiated to reduce or eliminate battering and deformation from use. The first military pistols with front portions of the slide flame hardened were the 1937 pistols. Then in 1943, the slide stop notch started being hardened as well.

Later, complete "hard slides" were developed. Many modern production pistols incorporate the use of hard slides on their pistols. One more reason I recommend using a modern pistol for a shooter and preserving the originals.