Theoretical 1911 modifications - A 'mad scientist' mental exercise

[BAC]

So... lately I've found myself staring a lot at a broken down 1911 and trying to figure out how all it works. The STI animation has probably been on my computer for a few days now. A recent discussion on another forum has me suddenly wondering if maybe, just maybe, it's possible to... adjust some things.

Like getting rid of the grip safety. And moving the slide-stop back so it can also function as a slide release.

Yeah, I know, these are pretty radical design changes. That's why this is a theoretical discussion. :cool:

First, the grip safety. My proposal is to replace the grip safety mechanism with some kind of firing pin block. The firearm would still be drop-safe, and have less moving parts. It's not my intent to debate whether or not the grip safety is a good or bad feature, but rather to talk about how it might be replaced by a simple firing pin block mechanism that doesn't disrupt the thumb safety or trigger pull.

The second part is the moving of the slide release. Looking at a Glock 17 side-by-side with my 1911, it seems like the slide stop would only have to move back an inch or so to be about perfect for use as a slide release. I realize a number of us are trained and drilled into the idea that a "slide stop is only a slide stop," but a timer doesn't lie, and someone is going to be lining up sights and shooting faster after a reload if the slide stop also doubles as a slide release. However, the answers are somewhat complicated: does the slide release simply get extended an inch, necessitating in the shrinking of the plunger tube, or is the barrel link assembly get nudged back a quarter inch, which changes a whole lot of things?

So. Let the discussion begin. :D


-B

[garrettwc]

Nothing mad scientist about it at all. And John Moses Browning beat you to it. Take a close look at a Browning High Power. ;)

http://guns4u.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/mk3.gif

[gottripletsNC]

The grip safety actually is the minimal amount of parts. A firing pin block would require more parts, as shown in the series 80.
The grip safety serves many functions, but first and foremost, physically prevents the trigger from being pulled.
Secondly, it serves to ensure a positive handle on the weapon, which has many ramifications above and beyond just simply preventing an accidental discharge.

As for the slide stop, it also serves many other functions that when moved would require much more engineering to change its function.
Obviously the prevention of a slide dropping on a empty chamber, but it also serves as the bottom bed of the barrel ensuring proper lockup of the barrel.

Its been around for just shy of 100 years in service, and no one has been able to optimize the design effectively other than fit, finish and aesthetics.


Now if we only talking about theoretical changes, stuff that we know ain't gonna work but could be cool changes.... then let the dreaming begin.

I personally like it the way it is.

As for the timing thing with the slide stop, thats all well and good, but in a high stress environment, it all falls to training because fine motor skills go out the door. However, gross motor skills are still there through muscle memory and repetitive training, and trying to manage that slide stop ain't work very well, but a full handed grab on the slide will load the weapon. For that matter a good slap to the front of the muzzle, or pushing down on an inanimate object might work in a pinch if you have lost the use of the opposing hand.

[BAC]

Nothing mad scientist about it at all. And John Moses Browning beat you to it. Take a close look at a Browning High Power.

Actually, that's a good example of the type of features I'm hinting at. The High Power doesn't have the nice linear trigger of the 1911, though, and (maybe I'm weird) feels different. I wanna keep a 1911... I just wanna do some hardcore modifying and modernizing. I do note that they elongated the slide stop instead moving the assembly back; I've never seen the inside of a BHP, and only held one once, so I don't know anything about its internals.


Its been around for just shy of 100 years in service, and no one has been able to optimize the design effectively other than fit, finish and aesthetics.

Nobody's really tried, either. ;)

Again, I'm not trying to argue the merits of getting rid of the grip safety. I'm trying to spark discussion on how to do it. Do you have any pictures of the internal assembly of the Series 80 Colts or even the High Power (if it has a firing pin block)? I can't seem to find much in the way of pictures for firing pin blocks except blown-up images; seeing them together but exposed is more helpful, you know?

Likewise, I'm also not trying to the merits of moving a slide stop to be used as a slide release (all things equal, thumbing a slide release will always be faster, especially if someone incorporates that into their training). As Garret showed, it was done on the High Power, so I know something can be done on the 1911. The question simply comes down to what can be done. Elongate the slide stop, or find a way to shift the assembly rearward?


Remember, this is purely a brain-storming topic, but I'm trying to take it a step further than simply deciding what I like. I'm trying to figure out how to do it. :D


-B

[RickB]

What does a firing pin block have to do with deleting the grip safety? I generally delete both a S80, but they don't address the same mechanical issues.

[toolman]

Have you ever shot a 1911 with one of the extended slide stops that allows the shooter to trip the slide stop with the right thumb? Even with my short fingers, when I tried shooting with a parallel thumbs type grip I would sometimes let my thumb(s) contact the slide stop during recoil and cause a malfunction.

JMB did it right when he put the slide stop where it is on the 1911. I've since gone back to the locked thumbs grip and I'm now using a standard type slide stop.

[Jagermonster]

Novak's has "The Answer" package, which removes the grip safety entirely.

http://www.novaksights.com/images/GUNS/colt/colt00146-5.jpg

[Frank]

I personally like it the way it is...
I second the motion. And Garrett, I like the BHP too.

It's always possible to design something new, but (1) it won't be a 1911 (which is okay -- there are other good guns); and (2) there will always be the question of whether it's really an improvement or just different.

DVC

[Rick McC.]

+1 on Frank's post. And; the current slide stop IS the slide release for those who care to use it.

Rick

[OD*]

Nobody's really tried, either. ;)
Oh yes they have, you wouldn't believe how many newbies to the 1911 think they are smarter than John Moses Browning was, there is always somebody thinkin' THEY have a NEW idea to improve the old 1911.

[Dreadnought]

Oh yes they have, you wouldn't believe how many newbies to the 1911 think they are smarter than John Moses Browning was, there is always somebody thinkin' THEY have a NEW idea to improve the old 1911.I called up a show on XM when they were going through a segment about "If you could go back in time, where and when would you go?" I told them I wanted to go to Ogden, Utah around 1895 and meet JMB to pick his brain and find out his thought processes to come up with one of the greatest fighting machines that can be taken apart completely using its own parts. I also want to take back a Baer or something and show him how far his design has come in the past century.

[Hawkmoon]

I wanna keep a 1911... I just wanna do some hardcore modifying and modernizing.
"I wanna keep it a 1911, I just want to change everything."

Reality check -- change everything and it's not a 1911. The Argentinean Ballester-Molina is a near-clone of the 1911, but it has no grip safety and a few other things are different. It is not considered a 1911. Virtually nobody would consider a Colt Double Eagle a 1911. There are many people, even among this forum's membership, who don't like it that we allow the Para-Ordnance LDA pistols to be discussed anywhere other than the "Non-1911" discussion area. Purists even argue that the Llama pistols from Spain, which were perhaps 95% (?) clones, should not be considered 1911s because they aren't 100 percent parts interchangeable.

You can't change everything and still call it a 1911.

[OD*]

I also want to take back a Baer or something and show him how far his design has come in the past century.
How is a Baer mechanically different from a 1911?

[gottripletsNC]

Aesthetics only Dan, aesthetics only.

I couldn't shoot any better with a Baer than I can with a GI.

[OD*]

Aesthetics only Dan, aesthetics only.

I couldn't shoot any better with a Baer than I can with a GI.
Yep, cause I got a Baer or two to compare to my originals. ;)

[BAC]

Wow. Sounds like I have some ‘splainin to do.

After a discussion with a few other people in a couple other places about what they would want in a 1911 designed solely for fighting, the purpose of the firearm being to directly compete with Glocks, M&Ps, and similar firearms but not be priced to kill. One individual even went so far as to recommend actual movement of certain features, specifically the ones I brought up in my initial post. When questioned about whether or not he was simply hinting at an M&P, he made it clear that he wanted a 1911, but felt that those particular changes would make it into the 1911-style pistol he would consider ideal for combat purposes. In short, he wanted something that would have no grip safety, a firing pin block that didn’t interfere with the thumb safety, and a slide stop that could be used as a slide release. Everything else he wanted to keep the same.

To be clear, I don’t hold the name “1911” sacred. I'd guess the aforementioned individual doesn't especially care, either. I just don’t think any one classification or title should be put on a pedestal when the topic is fighting for one’s life. We've come a long way in the history of gun fighting, and have learned a lot in the process.

The 1911 works, and works great. You’ll never hear me argue otherwise; it’s what I trust my life to when I walk out the door. Likewise, I’m not arguing that I’m somehow smarter or have more insight than the man who designed the gun; I’m the one asking questions, after all. What I want, and was inspired by that individual to think about, is a firearm whose blueprints start as a 1911 and are modified into something different. After it’s changed, I don’t care what its name is. Whether someone considers it a “true 1911” or not has nothing at all to do with why I wanted to suggest changes in the first place. Regardless of what you call it, at its heart it will have been inspired by and patterned after the 1911, and will still share many similarities with one.

I’m not going to argue the merits of the changes. I said I wouldn’t before, and I’m sticking to that. If I wanted to, I’d have phrased my original post as such. People here have a much more intimate knowledge of the internal workings of a 1911 than I do, and I greatly respect that, and want to pick the brains of those who do to help me in my little mental exercise. I’m not asking if something should be done. I’m asking how something can be done.



Jagermonster, thank you for bringing up that Novak “The Answer”. That exactly the sort of thing I’m looking for. I’ll keep a close eye on Novak’s website, maybe even call them up and see what they’re willing to tell me about it.

RickB, the reason I want to add a firing pin block is so the firearm will still be drop-safe. No real reason beyond that.

Toolman, I haven’t had the chance to shoot a 1911 with the extended slide stop, so no, I don’t know how it would feel. I have shot other handguns with a slide stop positioned to also be a slide release, and I know for a fact it’s possible to have a handgun with a slide release and thumb safety and no interference with the grip (several guns do), so it’s just a matter of figuring out how.

Rick McC., I disagree that the slide stop is in a position to also function as a slide release. It can be used as one, but isn’t designed to be and doesn’t lend itself to being easily used as one.


I hope where I’m coming from, and the intent of me starting this topic, is a little clearer now.


-B

[Frank]

I guess there are several possible approaches.

[1] You could take a Colt series 80 1911, which already includes a firing pin safety, add an extended slide stop, and pin the grip safety (or use the Novak grip safety substitute). Note that for a self defense gun, I think that disabling the grip safety is a very bad idea for legal reasons. (see post #32 in http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=56868&page=1&pp=10 )

[2] You could design a different type of gun. Of course the gun wouldn't be a 1911, but that shouldn't matter. And designing and building a new type of gun from scratch would entail considerable machine work and also require obtaining the necessary license from BATF.

[3] One could learn to use the 1911. It's been a satisfactory fighting tool for a long time, and many have learned to use it effectively. Many people have no particular problem with the grip safety or the slide lock as they are.

After a discussion with a few other people in a couple other places about what they would want in a 1911 designed solely for fighting,...
That’s fine, but understand that the 1911 was designed solely for fighting. JMB was designing a gun to serve as a military sidearm. From the beginning, the 1911 was designed as a fighting gun.

...he made it clear that he wanted a 1911, but felt that those particular changes would make it into the 1911-style pistol he would consider ideal for combat purposes....
The 1911 is what it is. A gun with the features outlined would no longer be a 1911. The term "1911" refers specifically to the particular design of JMB adopted in 1911 as the standard U. S. military sidearm. Variants with different barrel lengths as well as small modifications to certain peripherals, such as the grip safety, thumb safety and recoil spring guide rods, are also accepted as 1911s.

...a firing pin block that didn’t interfere with the thumb safety....
None of the firing pin blocks currently on 1911s interfere with the thumb safety. Many guns beside the series 80 Colt 1911s have firing pin blocks, and they all work off the trigger, except the Swartz type found on Kimber and S&W 1911s. Without a grip safety, they pretty much have to work off the trigger since the idea is to prevent the firing pin from moving forward unless the trigger is pulled.

...I don’t hold the name “1911” sacred. I'd guess the aforementioned individual doesn't especially care, either. I just don’t think any one classification or title should be put on a pedestal when the topic is fighting for one’s life...
That's fine. I don't think anyone here is saying that the 1911 is sacred. But the term does mean something. It means a particular type of pistol, just as the P35 (Browning High Power), the SIG P210 and the Glock 19 are particular types of pistols -- even though they all use a variation on the Browning dropping barrel, locked breach system.

The Chinese say that the first step toward wisdom is calling things by their right names.

...I want to add a firing pin block is so the firearm will still be drop-safe....
A properly maintained 1911 with its firing pin spring being replaced at the proper interval is drop safe without a firing pin safety.

...I disagree that the slide stop is in a position to also function as a slide release....
It works just fine for me, and I have small hands. I've been trained to release the slide with the slide stop, after inserting the magazine with my weak hand, using the thumb of my weak hand as my weak hand assumes its grip on the pistol over my strong hand.


DVC

[auto45]

I think you'll find on this forum, PDF's of the Army manual which show the "slide stop" being used as a slide release. So I believe that was the original intent. If you are using two hands to reload, then I don't see a problem. The "extended" slide release will/could get into the way with a proper two-handed hold...and that's bad.

If your reloading with one hand, and shooting with one hand, I could see the merit of an extended version...and a competition version of the mag release with a large "button".

I don't think the 1911 would be as nearly popular as it is, without "modern" improvements/changes, i.e. beavertail, extended safety, better sights, etc.
Those "modern" changes were devised of course by people in the 1960's+ I believe. Think Jeff Cooper and many others that changed the way the 1911 was shot, and shot a lot.

That said there are several changes that could be made to the 1911 that would sell IMHO, particularly since there are so many manufacturers producing the same "thing", and maybe not so well or for a "humorous" price tag ;)

It may not be a true 1911 when your done, but many consumers wouldn't care. JMB would have modified his creation to modern "desires" as needed...I suspect from reading his biography.


Series 80 because every new "weapon" is going to have FP safety in todays civilian world. Notice how I qualified that. ;)

You don't need a grip safety with a series 80 system. You don't need a grip safety anyway, but JMB's first CUSTOMER wanted one...so they got one.
People have been pinning grip safeties since the "modern method" began. That's a "clue" to most industries of a "consumer need", a change to improve a product that has never been fulfilled by a manufacturer yet. In the 1911 world, it's the individual "smith" that generally creates something, not corporate.

Drop in, non-gunsmith fit ejector?

Grip bushings that need to be changed for thin and thick grips? So, having different size grip screws or other locking device can't be thought of so you don't need special tool and new bushings to switch can't be devised?

Separate part...the plunger tube that needs to be staked in with special tools?

All "easy" stuff IMO that doesn't change the fundamentals of a great pistol, just brings it up to modern realities/economies. Economies means on a 1911 if your ejector breaks, most people have to have a smith fit it. Don't have one nearby?...$60-$80 freight plus probably $50 for the work. How does that sound to a Glocker!

Just some thoughts as we see more companies introduce more 1911's with the same "stuff". :sleep:

[gottripletsNC]

http://www.eaacorp.com/images/Witness-Elite/Match-08.png

I think this may be closer to what you are looking at then.
EAA Witness

[Hawkmoon]

To be clear, I don’t hold the name “1911” sacred. I'd guess the aforementioned individual doesn't especially care, either. I just don’t think any one classification or title should be put on a pedestal when the topic is fighting for one’s life. We've come a long way in the history of gun fighting, and have learned a lot in the process.
You may not hold it sacred. Others (a good many others, in fact) do.

However ... completely aside from that, the name "1911" is universally taken to mean a semi-automatic handgun built along the basic parameters of the M1911 pistol adopted by the U.S. Army. As such, it has certain features.

Once you start moving control locations and removing features, quite simply ... you may have what your "expert" considers a superior pistol, but it isn't a 1911.

You can buy extended slide stops for the 1911. I have a couple. Tried 'em, didn't like 'em, took 'em off my pistol. But ... they exist. Novak can do you up a modification to the 1911 that eliminates the grip safety. Whether or not the resulting weapon remains a "1911" is a topic for debate ... hopefully not in this thread.

If you want to design a different handgun because you think certain features are or aren't needed, and that certain controls could be better placed elesewehere ... by all means, do it. Just recognize that the product of your inventiveness will not be a 1911.

[Hawkmoon]

Rick McC., I disagree that the slide stop is in a position to also function as a slide release. It can be used as one, but isn’t designed to be and doesn’t lend itself to being easily used as one.
That's your personal opinion. That opinion is not universally held, and I think many people would disagree with you.

[para38super]

That's your personal opinion. That opinion is not universally held, and I think many people would disagree with you.
I agree with you Hawkmoon, I use my slide stop as a slide release I see no problem with that.

[BAC]

[1] You could take a Colt series 80 1911, which already includes a firing pin safety, add an extended slide stop, and pin the grip safety (or use the Novak grip safety substitute).

[2] You could design a different type of gun. Of course the gun wouldn't be a 1911, but that shouldn't matter. And designing and building a new type of gun from scratch would entail considerable machine work and also require obtaining the necessary license from BATF.

For a rough concept design, I think that #1 might be a viable start. Eventually I want to get a strong enough feel for the design changes that would be necessary that they could be put onto a production gun. The requirements of your #2 I’m aware of, though I appreciate the reminder. Right now this is limited to drawing board doodling.


The 1911 is what it is. A gun with the features outlined would no longer be a 1911. The term "1911" refers specifically to the particular design of JMB adopted in 1911 as the standard U. S. military sidearm. Variants with different barrel lengths as well as small modifications to certain peripherals, such as the grip safety, thumb safety and recoil spring guide rods, are also accepted as 1911s... [The 1911] means a particular type of pistol, just as the P35 (Browning High Power), the SIG P210 and the Glock 19 are particular types of pistols -- even though they all use a variation on the Browning dropping barrel, locked breach system.Once you start moving control locations and removing features, quite simply ... you may have what your "expert" considers a superior pistol, but it isn't a 1911... If you want to design a different handgun because you think certain features are or aren't needed, and that certain controls could be better placed elesewehere ... by all means, do it. Just recognize that the product of your inventiveness will not be a 1911.

Fair enough. I could be cheeky as heck and call it a 2011, then, or simply call it a “1911-ish”. Point is, only three specific changes are being made, however extensive these changes may or may not be. All other features of the 1911 would remain in this “1911-ish” gun. It is a firearm inspired by and modeled closely after a 1911, to the point that as many features of the firearm beyond those mentioned are maintained. I get your points, regardless.


None of the firing pin blocks currently on 1911s interfere with the thumb safety. Many guns beside the series 80 Colt 1911s have firing pin blocks, and they all work off the trigger, except the Swartz type found on Kimber and S&W 1911s. Without a grip safety, they pretty much have to work off the trigger since the idea is to prevent the firing pin from moving forward unless the trigger is pulled.

Good to know, thank you. Do you know if there is a series 80 Colt blow-up image somewhere that would show how it interacts with the trigger or would I have to persuade pictures out of somebody? Does the series 80 design notably effect trigger pull?


It works just fine for me, and I have small hands. I've been trained to release the slide with the slide stop, after inserting the magazine with my weak hand, using the thumb of my weak hand as my weak hand assumes its grip on the pistol over my strong hand.

I get what you’re saying (and Hawkmoon and para38super), but the point is that I’m trying to get the slide stop in a position that it can be easily accessed by the right hand that’s actually holding the gun; I’m trying to make it a one-handed operation.


auto45, great information (and insight). Thank you.

Series 80 because every new "weapon" is going to have FP safety in todays civilian world.

I think the series 80 firing pin block is a start, but I wonder if it can be upgraded or redesigned at all. I haven’t seen the internals of one before. I can’t really study non-1911 pistols for this because they operate on a hinged trigger, where I’m trying to keep the linear trigger since that’s one of the key selling points of the 1911’s popularity.


Drop in, non-gunsmith fit ejector?

Slightly different topic, but one of the ideas behind this design is that the eventual final draft would use all drop-in parts. I don’t want to get into this, though, since that’s beyond the scope of this topic. ;)


I think this may be closer to what you are looking at then.
EAA Witness

Yes and no. It does share similarities with what I’m trying to accomplish, but it doesn’t maintain the same grip and trigger. There are probably other differences, too, but without those two there’s no real need to look any closer since the internals are going to be pretty different than a 1911-variant.



Now we’re heading in the direction I intended this to go. :)


-B

[Hawkmoon]

Several illustrations of how the Series 80 firing pin block works have been posted on this site, by both John and OD*. I think John posted it within the past couple or three days.

Bottom line: You want to design a new pistol. Since what you want to design won't be a 1911, and this is a forum for discussing 1911s, your project is off-topic. Good luck with it.

[OD*]

Do you know if there is a series 80 Colt blow-up image somewhere that would show how it interacts with the trigger or would I have to persuade pictures out of somebody?
http://members.cox.net/rtset/45samp6.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/od45/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/series80safety.jpg

Does the series 80 design notably effect trigger pull?
Some people will say yes, and others no. Makes no difference on mine.

Don't you think it would be beneficial to learn how the 1911 actually works before you attempt to improve it? ;)