Technical questions: cast, forged, machined, etc.

[BAC]

(Yes, I used the search feature. No, I didn't find anything. :butthead: )


It occurred to me that when talking with a few others about 1911s, the topic of cast, forged, or machines frames/slides comes up a lot. Likewise, so does MIM vs barstock and the like. Machined from billet comes up a bit, too.

Breaking up each of these manufacturing methods, could someone describe each and explain some pro's and con's? Which is more expensive (and why), which is better quality, which has known issues, etc.?


Cast: Poured into a cast and allowed to set.

Forged: Hammered into a rough shape and machined into the final shape.

Machined: CNC'd from solid billet.

Metal Injection Molded (MIM): Metal injected (extruded?) into a mold and cooled.

Bar stock: ???


Missing any? On the right track?


-B

[RickB]

All gun parts that are cast for forged must be subsequently machined. As must barstock or billet. From what I understand, the single most time-consuming ($$$) machining procedure on the frame is cutting the magwell. Since a cast frame has the magwell right in the casting, you save at least that bit of machine time. Since the whole point of casting is to "save money", you are left to wonder how much money was saved by the maker in the manufacture of the frame? For instance, the location of all the pin holes in the frame is critical. Even if the frame is otherwise perfect, if the holes are improperly located or otherwise incorrect, the frame is junk. I have a frame that appears to have the pin holes cast right in. If there is any misalignment of the mold or other problems, the holes will be wrong. At the same time, if you take the best forged/machined frame blank in the world, and drill the holes in the wrong place, you're not much better off.
There have been many, many threads on this forum on precisely this topic, so do some searches and you will find more info than you will probably care to read.

[BAC]

Search finds a ton of topics but only sporadic information. So far the most useful information has come from George Smith (http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=572266&postcount=8) and Hawkmoon (http://forum.m1911.org/showpost.php?p=566549&postcount=8).

I've edited my first post to reflect what understanding I've gained, but honestly it doesn't answer a lot of questions. Which method is less costly? More costly? Which is less time consuming? More time consuming? That sort of thing.


-B

[RickB]

Time is money! Cast is cheapest because the parts are cast as close to final form as possible. Makers do more or less machining of the rough casting. Forging is not as close to final form as cast, so it's more expensive, as every contour and hole requires machining. Barstock must be converted from a block of metal to a gun, completely via machining, so it's the most expensive. MIM apparently requires a huge outlay for the equipment, but spread over many parts, each part is produced inexpensively. Most people accept cast and MIM for parts that don't have much load on them, such as safeties, and really don't have much choice. For the critical working parts, such as the frame, slide, barrel, slide stop, hammer, sear, some won't accept anything but forged or barstock, as the general perception is that such parts are stronger or "tougher". Some don't care about which process is used, as long as the gun "works". When the military specs were drawn up, every part of the M1911 was a machined forging, but that was then the only viable process for gun manufacture. Over time, even the military specs were altered to allow some cast parts, and some 1911s have been made entirely of cast parts. Today, most are a combination some or all of the various processes.

[BAC]

Thanks for the explanation.

Say that I'm looking to manufacture a rugged 1911 designed from the ground up as a fighting gun and nothing else. What I had in mind originally was (based on my limited understanding) was effectively an all-forged gun. Can one make an all or mostly-forged 1911 for a reasonable price (definitely less than a grand)? I guess I'm also curious as to which set-up process is more expensive, MIM, forging, or machining from barstock, since that would heavily influence what parts I could do compared to what parts I'd have to contract out.


-B

[Rick McC.]

I believe the general consensus is that it's less costly to buy a new pistol than to build one yourself from parts.

Rick

[BAC]

I'm talking production process for manufacturing, though, not putting together a single gun. ;)


-B

[RickB]

Some years ago, I read a piece written by Ed Brown, in which he discussed making a gun machined entirely from barstock, and that it would cost $3000. Well, today, we have guns with cast parts that cost $3000, so there goes that theory. I've also read, recently, that Wilson Combat is considering a fully machined gun, but they also already make $3000 guns, so maybe $4000 is closer to the mark. The Chinese Norinco guns are apparently fully forged and machined, but they may cost ten times as much to make as is charged for them (I think they're the equivalent of $300US, in Canada).

[Hawkmoon]

Cast: Poured into a cast and allowed to set.

Forged: Hammered into a rough shape and machined into the final shape.

Machined: CNC'd from solid billet.

Metal Injection Molded (MIM): Metal injected (extruded?) into a mold and cooled.

Bar stock: ???


Missing any? On the right track?
IMHO, this area is too complex to distill down to a "Cliff's Notes" summary. Your initial effort, for example, has a number of glaring flaws:

Cast: You completely overlooked investment casting.

Forged: Forging describes the process of making the initial, roughly-shaped chunk. What happens to a raw forging (machining, or whatever) is a separate issue not described or encompassed by the term "forged."

Machined: Means worked on by a machine. The original M1911s were are machined, but CNC was generations away from being invented. The term "Machined" does not imply CNC. "CNC Machined" does.

MIM: Your description of MIM sounds suspiciously similar to casting. They are very different processes, and your description doesn't even come close to describing the MIM process.

Bar stock is just a length of hot- or cold-rolled steel bar. I think you're aiming at the phrase "machined from bar stock." Just saying something is "bar stock" doesn't tell anyone much about anything, unless the alloy of the bar is identified, and the process by which parts are made from the bar stock is also identified.

[Hawkmoon]

Can one make an all or mostly-forged 1911 for a reasonable price (definitely less than a grand)?
One word: Colt.

I guess I'm also curious as to which set-up process is more expensive, MIM, forging, or machining from barstock, since that would heavily influence what parts I could do compared to what parts I'd have to contract out.
You can't really compare them, because they are used for different types of parts. Slides can be extruded and then machined (Armscor/RIA), forged and then machined (Colt, Caspian, etc.), or investment cast and then machined (???). Frames don't lend themselves to starting from an extrusion, so the coices for frames typically are forgings or investment castings. But, in theory you could machine a 1911 frame out of an ingot direct from a steel mill.

Small parts are a different animal. Investment casting doesn't make sense for small parts, but MIM does. Conversely, MIM doesn't make sense for slides and frames, but investment casting might.

What's more expensive? Machining from a forging. Why? More operations. The machining is the same whether you machine a bar of steel or a forging. Yes, the forging is roughly pre-shaped, but the operative term is "roughly." There is no surface anywhere on a forging that is the final surface and finish. Every square inch of every surface gets worked. You can omit the entire forging operation and machine the same frame from an ingot, or from a large piece of bar stock. Forging also consolidates the metal and orients the grain structure, resulting in tougher steel. I'm not machinist enough to know if that results in more difficult machining, but it stands to reason that it would.

MIM parts don't get machined. They are done when they come out of the over. That's why they're cheap. That's their blessing ... and their curse.

If you're just looking for background, you're asking questions that don't lend themselves to simple answers. If you're serious about starting a business, stop asking here and hire some consulting time with a qualified industrial engineer.

[BAC]

Hawkmoon,

It’s not that I overlooked them at all; that’s actually part of what I’m trying to get from you guys, because it’s something I’m not familiar with at all (like investment casting). I’m not trying to build a Cliff’s Notes, as much as I am a more complete understanding of each manufacturing process. I’m pretty detail oriented, so I tend to like as much information as is reasonable to fully grasp the concept, even if it’s not teaching me the chemistry and math behind it all. Your input’s been pretty helpful to that end. ;)

Frankly, I’m in no position to start a business, but I would like to contribute to the firearms industry eventually. My intention by asking these questions (yes, I realize they are more involved questions) is to better orient myself with what exactly it is I’d be involving myself in after everything is spec’d out and it’s time to start cutting steel.


-B

[RickB]

Is there a casting process used in gunmaking other than investment casting?

[BAC]

Good question. I've been looking to have my misconceptions straightened out, so I'd be interested to learn the answer. :)


-B

[Knight Armory]

Pretty much ALL the gun makers make their slides and frames from a cast part that is machined to final specs. They will not say in their advertising that's it's cast, but word it as machined, make no mistake it is all from a cast part or blank. This does save time and money for the manufacturer.

The cost effectiveness of having a hammer forged slide and frame from billet or barstock is not there. If it were done this way, you would spend at least 1200 to 1500 for the slide and frame a piece. So beware of those companies that claim their slides and frames are made from machined stock. While it is somewhat true, it is not totally true, because the part to begin with was cast and then machined to the final specs.

I believe Ruger pioneered the casting and machining of parts for firearms. But it is late and my memeory may be decieving me now.

[auto45]

Pretty much ALL the gun makers make their slides and frames from a cast part that is machined to final specs.

No, No. :)

Pretty much all the manufacturers, volume producers, use forged and/or barstock for the slide, frames and barrels. Like Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Taurus, Bear, Brown, Wilson, and S&W.

Then you have companies that produce/buy both...like STI, AO, RIA, Caspian. The only companies that I'm aware of that use cast "only" are Essex and Para.

Some companies have their own foundries, others buy forgings...then machine them.

I've "read" forging, actually, is a very cost effective way to produce raw shapes. As long as you have the "volume" to justify it.

[Knight Armory]

Yes, yes. You need to do a little more research. Springfield uses cast receivers that are machined, call and ask them. The only hammer forged receivers they make are for the Feds with the TRP professional, not the one readily available to the civilian buyers. And with their SOCOM National Match M1A1, which is why the cost of these are way more than the rest. And there is a backlog for orders that do not pertain to the military. If you want a hammer forged receiver you will pay for it.

Colt, S&W, Kimber and the rest also use cast slides and frames that may have forging at some point in the process and then are machined. But remember, that these are not truley forged from stock or billet or the pirce would be exponentially more.

The only people who get a hammer forged slide, frame, and or receiver made from barstock or billet is the military, per their contract with manufacturers. The cost is approximately $1,500 per receiver for a hammer forged one. The only three companies that I can name off the top of my head that possibly use hammer forged slides and frames from barstock or billet is Night Hawk Custom, Gun Industries, and Les Bauer. That is why the price of a slide and frame from them totals about $4,000.

Even the book on M1 Garands and M14's goes into all this. All the companies you mentioned start their slide and frames from a cast part that is machined. They call it forging, when it is truley not. There is NO COST EFFECTIVE WAY TO PRODUCE A HAMMER FORGED RECEIVER FROM STOCK OR BILLET NO MATTER WHAT THE VOLUME.

If you don't believe me, ask any machinist, model maker, or prototype maker and they will explain exactly what I have just told you in greater detail.

[pdangeruss]

The only three companies that I can name off the top of my head that possibly use hammer forged slides and frames from barstock or billet is Night Hawk Custom, Gun Industries, and Les Bauer. That is why the price of a slide and frame from them totals about $4,000.


The fully forged, Les Baer slide AND frame I've priced for a build, total around $6-700.00, depending on sight cuts and checkering. That sounds about right considering their complete guns cost around $1700 to $2900.

[Knight Armory]

Then I stand corrected. They are not one of the manufacturer's that offer a truely hammer forged receiver.

[auto45]

Colt, S&W, Kimber and the rest also use cast slides and frames that may have forging at some point in the process and then are machined. But remember, that these are not truley forged from stock or billet or the pirce would be exponentially more.

I'm am confused by those statements. But, I'm not a "metal" guy.

Springfield says they use "forgings", so if you debating what kind of "forging" process they use, then I don't know. Imbel does their forging. It would be incomprehensible to me that they would "lie". Maybe, your debating on the type of forging process?

S&W clearly uses forgings as detailed on their website, and they provide forging services for other companies. They use "drop" forging. You can read and see pictures about their process at their website.

Ed Brown had an article in the American Handgunner several years back about the different methods of production. He stated Forging was economical for large producers. You'll also "read" that on many sites that detail the different methods...economical for a part that needs the inherent strength of a forged piece. Casting would be cheaper of course.

So, I'll leave it to some other "metal" guys to respond. ;)

[Knight Armory]

Let me try to clarify what Springfield and others mean by forging.

We will use the 1911 grip frame as an example.

Step one: Molten metal is poured into a mold that roughly resembles the 1911 grip frame. Picture a solid hunk of metal as the 1911 grip frame with mag well hole already there. The rest is a very square version of the 1911 grip frame.

Step two: Once the metal solidfies enough but is also malleble, it leaves the mold. From here it is either hammered through a sizing die that gives the grip frame more shape and adds the slide rails. Or a series of molds are stamped onto this mallebale piece giving it more shape and adding slide rail grooves and other ammenities.

Step three: The piece is allowed to cool. It looks more like a 1911 grip frame but is still oversize and needs more work to closely resemble a finished 1911 grips frame. But the slide rail grooves are now there as well as the mag well.

Step four: The piece now goes to machining where it is machined to final specs and shape and then heat treated.

And while this piece is not fully hammer forged, a company can claim that it is forged, because one or two steps in the process is considered "forging". Is there a difference between this type of forging versus casting? Tests show there is no difference, that both will start to fail around 10,000 rounds.

A truely hammer forged receiver is exactly that. All steps to make the slide, frame, and or receiver is 99% done by hammer forging. With very little maching involved. This process is very time consuming and can take anywhere from 24-48 hours to complete one piece.

Is this type of forging better than the above mentioned two? Oh yeah, you bet your bottom dollar it is. This type of forging is what the military requires for their firearms. At least the M1A1's and M14's used by special forces. This is a lot more durable and better product. And runs 1200-1500 to make one item.

So in answer to your question. If you paid less than $2,000 just for the slide and frame of your custom built pistol. You do not have a fully hammer forged slide and frame.

If you paid less than $1,200 for your M1 Garand or M1A1 receiver, then you do not have fully hammer forged receiver.

I hope this helps to clearly state what I meant in my previous posts. I hope some model makers or machinists are on here and can clear up any mistakes I may have made.

[Hawkmoon]

Colt, S&W, Kimber and the rest also use cast slides and frames that may have forging at some point in the process and then are machined. But remember, that these are not truley forged from stock or billet or the pirce would be exponentially more.
Absolutely incorrect.

I have toured the Colt factory twice. Colts slides and Colt's frames are machined from forgings, not castings. Since I have also toured the Para-Ordnance factory and seen raw castings, I know the difference. And, in any case, when the guys from Colt stood right there and said, "These are the raw forgings," I don't think they had any reason to lie to us.

And I very much doubt that anyone combines investment casting with subsequent forging. That's really not cost-effective. The forged slugs at Colt's do not have even a vestige of the frame rails begun as part of the forging process. Neither do the investment cast frames at Para-Ordnance. Both companies machine those. I've seen raw frames from other companies, as well, and none of them have the frame rails started. Typically, that's one of the final operations performed, after the frame has been machined down to the final, overall width/thickness.

[Knight Armory]

Please understand that I was trying to give a simple explanation on what companies mean by 'FORGING". I was not trying to give a detailed instructional course on how to machine your own grip frame.

The post was to clear up the meaning on what companies like Colt, Springfield, and Kimber call forgings. And what a truely hammer forged frame is compared to the so called "forgings" of other companies. While I may have gotten the order of the steps wrong or what is left to final machining wrong. The body of the post was intended to give in laymans terms what companies mean when they state they use forgings.

And yes Colt heats up the raw slugs to hammer through their sizing dies or stamp a series of molds over the malleable slug to get a rough shape for machining. This is what they call forging, when only one or two stpes in the process involves real forging of the material. This semi forging process is cost effective. Unlike a true hammer forged piece.

I'm not gonna split hairs with you people. IF you do not believe me, then simply give Springfield a call and ask them what the difference is in the forging process for their SOCOM M1A1 National Match receiver versus the standard one. You will see that I am telling you the true difference between what an actual hammer forged piece of hardware is and what is considered to be a regular forged piece. Believe it or not, there is a difference.

If you want to believe that Colt only uses hammer forging for all their slides and frames, then by all means go on believeing it, because no amount of facts presented will change your mind. And the fact is that a true hammer forged item is very time consuming to make and is not cost effective. You will pay for the hammer forging process.

[Hawkmoon]

How would any forging be made other than by hammering? Colt's frames and slides are "hammer" forged by any definition you might choose to use. I don't doubt that you believe what you wrote, but what you wrote is inaccurate, unhelpful, and does not properly describe the process by which Colt's frames and slides are manufactured.

Colt's frames and slides are forged outside of the factory. The other manufacturers who use forged slides and/or frames all buy them from one of only two or three forges who make these things. John Caradimas knows who and where they are, but the information is proprietary and we do not have permission to publish it.

IMHO,companies who say they are selling "forged" slides and/or frames are indeed selling hammer forged slides and/or frames. That's the only way a forging is made. Companies selling slides machined from bar stock (or "extrusions") are selling slides machined from extruded bar stock. Those selling investment cast slides and/or frames are selling investment cast slides and/or frames.

I am not aware of any company that uses multiple of these procedures on a single part.

And yes Colt heats up the raw slugs to hammer through their sizing dies or stamp a series of molds over the malleable slug to get a rough shape for machining. This is what they call forging, when only one or two stpes in the process involves real forging of the material. This semi forging process is cost effective. Unlike a true hammer forged piece.
No, they don't. I've been in the factory twice. The raw forgings go directly to machining. You are incorrect.

[Knight Armory]

You're splitting hairs here. The point is this, the so called companies that you love so dear, and think won't lie to you, only have one or two steps in their process that involves "forging". Forging could be hammering a hot piece of metal into a raw slug, or it could be a series of molds that are hydraulically pressed onto a hot slug to make a rough shape, or it could be two hammer strikes on a hot slug to shove it through a sizing die. The point is, that it does not take much to make a so called industry standard "forged" slide or frame.

Whereas a true hammer forging is a completely different process. That takes a lot of time and money to make. There is a difference and you will pay for that difference. If I may ask, how long did Colt say it takes to make their slides and frames? And I mean without final machining. The machining for them takes longer than the hammer forging. Did you ever ask yourself why?

You saw what Colt wanted you to see. You didn't see their so called forging process, because as you stated "it's outside of their regular factory." You saw blanks or rough slugs, that as you said didn't look a thing like a 1911 grip frame. That's because the part you saw was already forged by their definition, into the raw shape you saw, then the rest was machined.


And again I will state, don't believe me, call Springfield and ask what the difference is between their NM SOCOM M1A1 and the standard one. There is a huge difference in price, but one is stated as being forged, while the other is stated as being hammer forged.

There is a difference end of arguement. Most of the gun industries do not want the information getting out, that a forged slide or frame for them means the following. Hammering a malleable metal blank into a raw slug for machining. That is then made into your slide and or frame with no forging involved.

[OD*]

Tests show there is no difference, that both will start to fail around 10,000 rounds.

This type of forging is what the military requires for their firearms. At least the M1A1's and M14's used by special forces.
Can we see the documentation on these claims?

[John]

Forging could be hammering a hot piece of metal into a raw slug, or it could be a series of molds that are hydraulically pressed onto a hot slug to make a rough shape, or it could be two hammer strikes on a hot slug to shove it through a sizing die.

I want to see how a hot slug goes through a sizing die and becomes the forgings I've seen in Colt factory. If you can explain that to me, you have a much better understanding than I have about metallurgy.

[Knight Armory]

To OD, call Springfield and ask the difference between the NM SOCOM M14 and the standard one. They will also tell you that if you plan to order the NM SOCOM M14 there is a back order untill the needs of the military are filled first.

Or two read the book titled: THE M14 Complete Assembly Guide; Vol. 1 & 2 by Walt Kuleck and Clint McKee.

It explains the difference between the so called forgings that most gun companies sell and a true hammer forging. I'm done arguing this point with those who do not know better but think they do.

[OD*]

To OD call Springfield ask the difference between the NM SOCOM M14 and the standard.

Or two read the book titled: THE M14 Complete Assembly Guide; Vol. 2 by Walt Kuleck and Clint McKee.

It explains the difference between the so called forgings that most gun companies sell and a true hammer forging. I'm done arguing this point with those who do not know better but hink they do.
I didn't think you could.

[Knight Armory]

If you feel good about giving misleading information on here then by all means do so. I however will continue to thwart your false info by stating facts that anyone can call to verify by a comapny or read in a book written by men who knew more about guns and the making of then I or you will ever know.

[OD*]

If you feel good about giving misleading information on here then by all means do so.
That's the reason we are questioning you, that is exactly what you are doing.

I however will continue to thwart your false info by stating facts that anyone can call to verify by a comapny or read in a book written by men who knew more about guns and the making of then I or you will ever know.
And I will continue to call bull on you when the two things I ask you to provide would have to be public record if it's specified in a U.S. Government contract.

[Knight Armory]

To say that the US military special forces in Iraqi are not using M14's supplied to them by Springfield and other companies is lie. To hint otherwise is a lie. I instructed you to to call Springfield yourself and verify this. Obviously you can't, or you would not be giving me such a hard time. And by US contract, dating back to when the M14 service rifle was used by the military, it states that all US issued M14's were to have a hammer forged receiver. This is also in the book I listed volumes 1 & 2.

I call Bull on you, since you cannot or will take the time to verify anything that I have posted here with Springfield, or a simple internet search.

I have been an armorer for the military, for the police department, and for the state tactical team. Now in my retired years I am still a factory certified armorer for many companies including Glock, HK, and Sig as well as a gunsmith. I know what I am talking about and can quote books and other companies to verify what information I have posted here.

You and others on the other hand, have done nothing except to try and muddle the point with your inane arguements and splitting hairs on issues.

That fact of the matter is there is a difference between so called "forged" and "hammer forged". Google it if you don't believe me. The so called forged pieces by companies today that do not say hammer forged, are no stronger than a cast piece. Due to the fact that the only forging occured when the billet was given it's shape and not when it was machined into a slide and or frame. Therefore no additional strength is given to the part because the internal density is the same as cast. Only "hammer forging", which is a different process imbues added strength into it's part when made because of the compacting of the metal as it's being shaped. Which companies like Colt, Springfield, Kimber & SW cannot afford to do for all their firearms.



Any gunsmithing book, course, or vidoe will tell you to check any and all frames, slides, and receivers after 10,000 rounds for cracks.

[OD*]

You phony.

To say that the US military special forces in Iraqi are not using M14's supplied to them by Springfield and other companies is lie.
You're the one lying, I know they are using the M14, I asked for proof that there are TWO DIFFERANT ways (forgings) they are made, as is typical with trolls an wannabes, you can't prove what you claim and pass the burden on to the questioner to prove you correct or incorrect, because you can't. You might want to find a new playground where they are dumb enough to believe your fantasies.

[John]

Due to the fact that the only forging occured when the billet was given it's shape and not when it was machined into a slide and or frame.


So according to this gentleman, a true forging is made when the slide or the frame is machined!!!

Good Lord, some people believe that the anonimity provided by Internet allows them to spread out whatever they want to. And they expect people to believe them and not call them out.

This thread is now closed.

[Hawkmoon]

Hammering a malleable metal blank into a raw slug for machining. That is then made into your slide and or frame with no forging involved.
Hammering a blank into a rough shape IS, by definition, forging. Not only in the gun-making industry, but in any industry. Colt's is not the only factory I've been through during my multi-decades on this planet. In fact, most of the factories I've been involved with have not been gun factories at all. Forging is forging. The machining process after the blank has been forged adds no strength, CANNOT add any strength (because it's only removing material, not consolidating it), and doesn't in any way affect the definition of whether or not the raw blank was forged.