Caspian

[ventana]

Hi

I recently purchased a used Caspian SS 1911. The pistol functions fine but it is not as accurate as some of my factory Colts and DW CBOB.

I am new to 1911s and understand that a key issue for pistol accuracy is that there needs to be a reasonably good fit between barrel and its bushing. I have noticed that there is some play between the slide and barrel when the Caspian is in battery (e.g. the barrel move slightly when I press down upon it when in battery) This movement is more so than other 1911s. The pistol is in very good condition and does not appear to be shot much.

Is there a good way to diagnose the problem? Should I consider a replacement barrel or bushing?

Thank you for your attention.

[niemi24s]

Hi Ventana: :wc: to the Forum. Everything you need to know about your 1911 is available here.
I have noticed that there is some play between the slide and barrel when the Caspian is in battery (e.g. the barrel move slightly when I press down upon it when in battery)
Inaccuracy in a 1911 can come from many sources. Two of the most common are sloppy fits allowing excessive movement of the barrel at its front and at its rear when in battery.

The barrel in a 5" gun has support points about 4¼" apart. So, 0.001" of movement at either support point translates to 0.2" at 25 yards.

The key to knowing how much accuracy gain can be had in this gun is knowing how much movement there is at the front and back of the barrel. This movement is almost always greatest in the up-down direction. This movement should be measured with respect to the slide.

How much measured movement does the barrel have at the muzzle and at the front of the ejection port?

[ventana]

I will have to check it using a caliper but my estimation is a few thousandths of in inch wiggle room is likely. The barrel does not lock up as tightly as my other 1911s when in battery. Is this issue easily remediable?

[niemi24s]

I will have to check it using a caliper but my estimation is a few thousandths of in inch wiggle room is likely. If this "few thousands" is at the muzzle, and let's say it's actually 0.003" just to have a number, that translates to only 0.6" at 25 yards.
The barrel does not lock up as tightly as my other 1911s when in battery.
If your gun is like many others, a lot of the inaccuracy comes from vertical movement at the rear support point. There's two ways the back of the barrel can be supported vertically in a 1911: the link; the barrel's lower lugs (aka feet).

Because of this, there's two ways to eliminate the back end slop and hopefully improve accuracy: a longer link to get the barrel as far up into the slide as possible at battery (and reduce the uncertainty in its position at battery); a new barrel with oversized feet fitted to the slide stop pin so as to do the same thing.
Is this issue easily remediable?
Pretty easy with a longer link; quite difficult with a new fitted barrel.

But, get some measurements first.

[Hawkmoon]

There's two ways the back of the barrel can be supported vertically in a 1911: the link; the barrel's lower lugs (aka feet).

Because of this, there's two ways to eliminate the back end slop and hopefully improve accuracy: a longer link to get the barrel as far up into the slide as possible at battery (and reduce the uncertainty in its position at battery); a new barrel with oversized feet fitted to the slide stop pin so as to do the same thing.
Don't overlook the fact that if there is play, the barrel is already riding the link. A longer link may increase the numerical lockup dimension, but won't eliminate the play and could cause other problems.

On the other hand, a shorter link might allow the barrel to seat on the slide stop cross pin, as designed, and that would eliminate all play. However, the amount of lockup would have to be confirmed, and it would also have to be checked to ensure that the link isn't in tension when the barrel links down during cycling.

[log man]

Without doubt and postulating a new gunsmith fit barrel WILL cure the problem.

LOG

[SharonAnne]

usually less expensive than a new barrel is to have your 'smith weld up and refit the barrel legs.

Blessed Be

SharonAnne

[berkbw]

Yep - welding the lower lugs will work at the back end. A tighter bushing helps at the fron end.

b-

[niemi24s]

Hmmm-m-m-m . . . :confused:

Thought I had the 1911 pretty well figured out, but maybe I don't. Maybe Caspians are somehow different. Anyway, here's some idle comments.
Don't overlook the fact that if there is play, the barrel is already riding the link.
I don't think play necessarily indicates the barrel is riding the link. A barrel whose feet are on the SS pin can also have play if the barrel is poorly fitted. Even a rare USGI in-spec gun with a standard link can have its barrel feet on the pin and still have play (limited to about 0.005" by the link system).
A longer link may increase the numerical lockup dimension, but won't eliminate the play and could cause other problems.
A longer link can never eliminate all of play, but it can eliminate all but about as much as 0.003" of it. This is because the link drops the barrel down about 0.003" after passing vertical on the way to battery, as shown here:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p232/niemi24s/P079090004d.jpg
On the other hand, a shorter link might allow the barrel to seat on the slide stop cross pin, as designed. . . .
Not being personaly familiar with Caspians, I can't say how they're designed. But if Caspian makes complete 1911's and does so according to the U.S Army blueprints in our Tech Issues section, a mid-spec sample will ride a standard link all the way to battery with the feet about 0.007" off the pin as shown in the pic above.
. . . and that would eliminate all play
Lowering the feet onto the pin by using a shorter link can eliminate all the play but only between the barrel and SS pin. It can do this only if the link is short enough to be in light tension when the gun's in battery. For a mid-spec USGI gun, this would require a 264 link - 0.014" shorter than the standard 278 link.

A mid-spec 1911 with a 276 link will just barely allow simultaneous VIS/bed contact by the barrel. With a 264 link installed, the barrel would hit the bed and never make VIS contact after firing. I'm told this will result in a broken link.

In addition, the shorter link will reduce vertical engagement of the radial locking lugs from a barely acceptable 0.039" to 0.032" for the #1 lugs in a mid-spec 1911.

The ultimate in accuracy can only be had when the barrel has the same position in the slide (under the sights) for every shot. This means the barrel must not only rise up against the underside of the slide but also push up on the slide to remove any vertical play between the slide and frame. An in-spec USGI 1911 can have as much as 0.007" of vertical play between the slide and frame, with a mid-spec gun having 0.004" of play.

All this Shangri-la stuff can only be obtained with a barrel having oversized lower lugs fitted to bear on the SS pin.

At least that's the way I've got it figured out for the M1911A1 from the U.S. Army blueprints.

Don't know anything about Caspians.

Regards

[Hawkmoon]

There is nothing "different" about Caspians. They don't build guns ... they sell frames and slides. They take pride in making their slides and frames very close to standard dimensions ... which I assume means Ordnance Department blueprint dimensions. So their frames and slides should all fall within your blueprint dimensions.

Irrespective of "mid-spec," it has to be remembered that the Ordnance Department's intention was not maximum accuracy, it was producing the maximum number of pistols for the lowest price, with all parts interchangeable in the field. Allowing the barrel to ride the link may be what holding everything at mid-spec produces, but the fact is that for maximum accuracy the barrel lug "feet" are supposed to be on the slide stop pin in battery ... not held off the pin by the link. You may consider this to be Shangri-La stuff, but the original question related to improving accuracy. A mid-spec gun will produce combat accuracy -- that's all it's expected to produce. To go beyond that you have to depart from military tolerances and build a tighter pistol.

[niemi24s]

. . . but the fact is that for maximum accuracy the barrel lug "feet" are supposed to be on the slide stop pin in battery ... not held off the pin by the link.
I fully realize that - but was just commenting that merely getting the feet on the pin by just using a shorter link wouldn't help much (if at all). There's more to it than just changing links.

And, a longer link can improve accuracy if it's long enough. Military & civilian 'smiths did it for years in the late 50's & early 60's using National Match links - the +13, +17 and +21 links along with standard USGI barrels.
. . .the original question related to improving accuracy.
And, in Post #4, I was merely informing the OP of his options:

• a longer link or (better yet)
• a fitted barrel.

I guess a Group Gripper would be a third option.

Cheers

[log man]

LOL Okay, already, as I said in post #6, a new barrel, is the answer. Unless the OP likes to operate on all the "probablys", "usuallys", "maybes", he's been getting and all the postulating of what will and what won't work.

When your car starts sliding around in the rain it's time to get a new set of tires. And that is exactly what a barrel is, a consumable gun part that needs to be replaced, just like tires on your car or the flapper valve in your toilet. Get a new one! LOL

LOG

[niemi24s]

Hi Log Man:

We both told the OP back in posts 4 and 6 a new barrel would increase accuracy. The only difference, really, was in post 4 I mentioned the use of a longer link as an accuracy improvement option. Not knowing how familiar the OP was with the 1911 I also added some other stuff.

Then Hawkmoon, in post 5, commented on my post 4. The way I understood post 5 was that a shorter link - without any other changes mentioned - would reduce play (and I assumed, improve accuracy).

Again, not knowing how familiar the OP was with the 1911, I didn't want him/her to think a shorter link was the answer to the gun's inaccuracy problem. This resulted in my post 9.

Maybe I misunderstood or misinterpreted what Hawkmoon said. All 3 of us know way down down deep in our little hearts that the best solution to the OP's inaccurate 1911 is a new fitted barrel. The longer link option I gave is not the best, but it remains an option. I'd rather spell out the options and let the OP decide which (if any) to go for. It's the OP's gun and the OP's money. Maybe $6 for a link. Maybe $300 (?) or so to get a barrel & bushing fitted.

The funny thing is, none of us know how accurate the OP wants this gun to be - exept maybe as accurate as his other two 1911's. And we don't know how accurate they are! Here's a bizarre thought - what if the Caspian's problem was a loose rear sight? [Nah .... the OP would have spotted that]

Cheers

[log man]

LOL, Well you've made a really good there niemi, as the proof isn't in how tight it feels, but in how well it shoots. A loose sight could confuse things.LOL

LOG

[John]

I guess a Group Gripper would be a third option.

Yeah, for about 1000 rounds. Then the little flat spring goes south and you are back to square 1. Don't ask how I know.

[Tom]

Don't ask how I know.
Now how can anyone pass this up? I'll bite. Just how DO you know this, John?

[berkbw]

Somehow, that, to me, does not sound much different than replacing the recoil spring at 5k.- just a more frequent thing.

I'd bet that George could come up with a better design tho.

b-