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View Full Version : New here, and some thoughts


A_J
10th September 2008, 23:41
Hi, just an indroduction.. new to this forum, and somewhat new to 1911's. I've been shooting for almost 20 years, but for some reason, a 1911 never made it into the collection until recently.. and I've got the bug! I'm already on my second, first was a SA Loaded stainless, and after that I thought I'd give a Kimber SIS Pro a whirl.

I've done gunsmithing on a lot of my other guns, so one of the first things I did was get the Kunhausen boooks and any others on smithing the 1911. And I must say, the Browning design is a thing of beauty. I even went so far as to pick up a junker used 1911 so that I could use it for learning.. I'm totally geeking out on them now :)

But onto other things. I had read sooo many times that 1911s require 200-500 rounds of breaking in.. ok, so they may come tight from the factory. But both had some issues that needed to be addressed.

On the Springer, the biggest thing was the extractor.. very rough cut and mistensioned. The rounds weren't able to feed the rim underneath it reliably. Did some polishing and retensioned, and also polished some other areas - such as the disconnector rail where they stamp the numbers (why stamp them there?) Anyway, it's working much better now, and the trigger has broken in beautifully.

With the Kimber, the first trip to the range went better, but still had some feeding issues with the extractor on this one. Checked it when I got home, and it was a rough cut too, though not as bad as the Springfield, and I could tell from my casings and the leftover dirt on the tip where I needed to dressed. I had also noticed a little snag on the trigger takeup, so being the detail geek that I am, I traced that down to the disconnector - the surface that mates with the trigger bow was not flat and true.. luckily, I had a C&S disconnector already (for trying a trigger job with that junker gun). With the new disconnector, the takeup snag is gone, and the trigger feels much better as a whole. But wait - there's more - as I was stripping the gun, I discovered that I could defeat the grip safety with only about 10 lbs of force on the trigger! Sure enough, the fitting on the tip was overly aggressive and rounded off some. I managed to peen the tip and redress it so that I can not defeat it with my trigger finger, nonetheless, I called Kimber right away, and a new grip safety is in the mail. Kinda scary that it was like that from the factory though. And while I had it apart I replaced the ambi safety with a C&S single sided (it's to be a carry gun and I'm trying to minimize width.) But now, it is cycling much smoother, most of which is probably due to the extractor dressing and the better tip on the C&S disonnector.

So my thoughts so far.. It seems to me that the 1911 design almost dictates that certain things recieve hand fitting and that may run counter to mass manufacturing methods. Case in point is the extractors. I can see no reason why a properly fitted 1911 extractor would be inferior, but it seems that machined or milled extractors put in the mass market 1911s don't get all the attention they should. On both extractor hooks were toolmarks visible with the naked eye. Then there's things like slightly off slide stops causing false locks, the disconnector on my Kimber being wonky, not to mention the grip safety. :scared:

Take all the rough parts, add in milling marks on the breechface, etc.. it's no wonder why these have a reputation for needing break-in, having rough feeding, etc. But to me, it's not a fault of the design, it's mass manufacturing not giving some areas the attention they should get. Now, for someone like me, not a huge deal.. I enjoy the opportunity to master my weapon inside and out, but I worry about newbies getting the impression that the design itself is inferior.. it's just that, like a fine Swiss watch, it takes time and effort to build them for optimum performance, and it just isn't happening on these mass market 1911's. Thoughts?

Keep in mind I'm basing this off of my first two - if I lay down the $3000 for a custom Ed Brown, am I going to get glass like smoothness and function? Or am I in for some tweaking still?

Hunter
11th September 2008, 01:53
There has been a lot of discussion on a "break in period" for the "1911"
A well made Government Model that is in spec does not need a break in period and should run any ammunition brand new out of the box.
Welcome to the forum.

carsten1911
11th September 2008, 05:32
Hi A J,

welcome to the forum!
Speaking from my limited own experience and reading about the issues posted by many of our members I lean towards your opinion:
The design is excellent, but sloppy/ mass production is holding back the potential.
As Hunter stated: If everything is in spec the gun will do perfectly.

Sad news: For example my Springer has so many bugs I dont know where to start: From extremely deep tooling marks in the frame to a magazine thats 3 components were all not up to the task/ out of spec, very rough extractor too...I wont list them all her, I aint got enough time right now :-( . "In Spec" seems to be rather by accident than by purpose. I am still looking at the gun trying to find a line in it that is really straight and true....

I do see 2 options for owning and using a 1911:
Either you pop the bucks for a real Colt or above (if there is such a thing ;-) ) or you prepare to learn your gun (which is sensible even if you have a "Colt or above", IMHO...).
So be prepared for a little tweaking...that does by no means mean that tweaking will be necessary. Many cheap 1911 run fine out of the box! And often a necessary fix is a small thing, like a new magazine.

The problem of the 1911-world is the countless producers for this and that part, the manufacturers buying from this and that source, depending on price and availability more than from the "is this part in spec"-factor.

High-end manufacturers will either produce all critical components by themselves or buy from vendors who deliver quality work. They also can afford a higher standard for their quality control.

Mass producers are just that...mass producers. They get their bargain from relatively cheap guns sold in masses. They just cant hold up a QC at that price. It would take people who fully understand the details and function of the desing...and these people rightfully know and demand their price!

So if the Glocksters, H+Kers and all of them criticize the 1911 they are plainly spoken partially right in some aspects. All of their guns are manufactured by a single producers, which makes QC and the in-spec-thing a lot easier. But they often wrongly put the blame on the 1911-design...which is nonsense.

They were totally and absolutely wrong if there was only 1 COLT-producer...but then a 1911 would be just beyond the financial reach of many (including myself, therefore I fall in the "learn your gun"-category, I knew that before and came to like that aspect, too!)

Carsten
(who is having lots of fun with his cheap 1911 ;-) )

MoneyTree
11th September 2008, 16:35
I agree with Hunter in that there should be no break in period required . Like you I've only had two real 1911's , both Nighthawk Customs and they've ran perfectly from day one . They have loosened up a bit with firing ( they slingshot easier ) but there's not been a single malfunction . Maybe I've just been lucky though . I do also have a Kimber " 1911 " Rimfire Super 22LR and it's been the same story with it too . I guess I've just bought some rather boring pistols . ;) And welcome to the forum AJ .

http://img125.echo.cx/img125/8038/01welcome7jb.gif

toolman
11th September 2008, 16:44
+1 A J

There once was a time when the Army Ordinance Department made the manufacturer's mind their P's and Q's, but alas, that time is long gone. More's the pity.

Jim Watson
11th September 2008, 17:12
I recall when the American Rifleman reported on a Springfield Armory Inc repro Garand some years ago. They said it shot ok, but would not have passed Army inspection... it had a quarter inch knot in the wood of the handguard.

woolybooger
12th September 2008, 00:25
i just finished building a 1911 from scratch using all new parts from several different mfgs. every part except the grip screws had to be hand fit. remember that this gun was adopted by the mlitary in 1911.during ww2 every factory that had metal working capabilities was pressed into service making war marterials. factories that had never seen a gun were suddenly making guns. parts from one factory had to fit a gun made in a different factory. i think the ww2 spec,s are still in use today because anybody can CNC a part to +/- .002" . for 2-3 thou bucks i would expect someone else to have already done my fine fitting.

robinson217
12th September 2008, 01:47
i just finished building a 1911 from scratch using all new parts from several different mfgs.

I want to do the same thing. What manufacturer made your frame and your slide? Were you happy with them? I have a pretty good idea where I want to get the other stuff.

Also, I'm assuming you used quality parts....did you add up the cost? Do you get more gun for the buck doing it yourself, or is just one of those expensive "character building" experiences?

garrettwc
12th September 2008, 09:20
A.J. first off welcome to the forum.

For someone who is new to the 1911, you have already developed a sound grasp of the realities surrounding them. Good for you. As Hunter mentioned, most of us prefer the original Colt for the reasons you outlined. They still do the hand fitting and attention to detail (not to mention original ordnance specs) necessary for a top notch 1911.

woolybooger
13th September 2008, 01:15
hello robinson. i used an armscorp/rock island frame, an essex slide,and a new gi surplus barrel. the grips,mag catch,and slide stop that id taken off my other 1911s. every thing else came from fusion fire arms. the frame gave me the most trouble. the recoil spring tunnell was narrower but deeper from butt to muzzle and the barrel bed in the frame was poorly cut. the pin holes,as best as i can measure,were within specs. the essex slide was pretty good. the internals only needed what i would consider normal fitting. when i do it again i will use a better frame. i have about $690 in it now . after i bought the slide and frame,my budget would only allow $50-$75 every 2 wks for parts so i have a lot tied up in shipping. i had hoped for,but did not expect, a tack driver from this first gun. im having feeding/extraction problems that im working thru now. i would call this first one an ego-building,learning experience that i have really enjoyed. and 1911s dont scare me when its time for thorough cleaning any more.

doctruptwn
17th September 2008, 23:10
Robinson, I too am just finishing a first build project. I bought an Armscor compact SS frame and got a Rock Island tactical slide from Ray at Advanced Tactical. the internal parts I also got from Fusion Fire Arms. My problem area was the trigger grooves, they required a lot of filing, sanding polishing for the trigger to drop in. The slide to frame fit was done using lapping compound. the only other real fitting that was required was the thumb safety, which required some filing and polishing. I have about $550 in it so far so it is about the same cost as a new one, But I can say it is all mine.

jwenum
20th September 2008, 04:41
Robinson--I started with a Caspian frame,gunshow barrel,and a Colt 'export' slide bought at a gunshow.Used the Kuhnhausen books,and I couldn't be more pleased..Hardly ever had a jam while feeding and it probably shoots better than my tired shoulder can hold the gun. I think most of the 'build' is just getting the right machined parts(within tolerance) and everything will work.Good luck!!

berkbw
22nd September 2008, 13:58
The "Break-in" period many mfgs refer [to], if not a cover-up for sloppy work - OR making SURE that nobody complains about sloppy fit. You can tune the fit .. except for fine tuning the ejector and sight height, before YOU ever fire a round downrange, with never a failure to feed/extract/chamber/eject.... this warranty only applies when you use the same ammunition - NOT "range-loads", or "friends re-loads", just something GOOD even WWB [Winchester White Box, available at your local Wal-Mart). UMMM, well you might still have one of the above failures every few thousand rounds, even machines aren't perfect.