Larry Vickers Pistol Class Review Pics

[d90king]

As some of you know I took a 2 day course with Larry Vickers. It was a basic pistol course that covered a wide range of methods and tactics. First let me say that I am someone who has been around guns for a long time and have had some training but I consider myself a novice in regards to tactical training. That said this course was very very well done and executed using excellent drills. I am not much of a writer but I have been asked by a few people to do a review for the board so here goes.
The course was run by Larry Vickers and Dave Pennington
One of the single biggest things that Larry was stressing is accuracy and that accuracy is controlled 90% by trigger pull, stance and grip are secondary but also important. He wants to give you a solid foundation to build and train on. I will also say that everything you thought you know goes out the window under stress. He focused a lot on overcoming the bodies natural tendency to flinch and jerk when you are expecting a "boom" think of holding a firecracker in a pair of pliers out at arms length. You can retrain your mind to overcome that when firing your weapon. Trigger pull! trigger pull! trigger pull! Larry is a great teacher and a very funny guy. I shot about 400rnds during the 2 days of shooting. In one of Larry classes every round has a purpose and a accuracy expectation. You do not just throw rounds down range. I was spent after each day. I did walk away with a greater appreciation for high capacity pistols for training.There were 5 1911's in the class. I used my SuperTac and did not have any malfunctions. My Brown did fail though. I will be taking more classes soon as I have much to learn. My next one will be a 1911 operators class which is 1911 specific and is 1 day shooting and 1 day breaking down your pistol completely and learning all parts of it and how they affect the pistol. At the end you will be able to diagnose problems on your 1911. The main thing I took away from this class was how much I NEEDED this type of training and look forward to future classes. Dave was also a great guy. I was pleasantly surprised at how many great guys were in the class.
Sorry its not a great review but I wanted to post one for the guys who asked.

Day 1 Start time 10:00

1. Dry fire trigger control with empty case or coin (requires partner)
dry firing with a cartridge on front site post
2. Trigger reset drill (requires partner to rack slide)
partner racks slide and you are to reset trigger as slide is moving forward
3. Slow fire ball a dummy (partner drill)
You turn around and partner loads gun or maybe he leaves empty
4. Command ball and dummy (partner drill)
same as above but using voice command to fire
5. Timed ball and dummy (partner drill)
same as above using a timer you have 3 seconds to aquire and fire
6. Wobble zone demonstration using 3 fingers for front site.
using 3 fingers to simulate front site and showing your natural wobble zone
7. Concept of follow-through, scan & assess
fire on target follow up shots and scan for any further threats
8. "Don't call it a walkback drill"
starting at 25yds shooting steel plates moving back at 25yd intervals
9. Draw from holster
10. Emergency reload
11. Slow fire "bullseye" drill at various distance
start at 5yds move back to 15yds
12. Emergency reload drill on steel plates (competitive drill)
start with empty and reload shooting steel plate at 25yds
13. Static turns.
how to properly turn under duress


Day 2 Start Time 9:00

1. Slow fire ball and dummy (partner drill)
2. Command ball and dummy (partner drill)
3. Timed ball and dummy (partner drill)
4. Bullseye drill at different distances
5. "Dont call it a walkback to 100yds
Lunch
6. Malfunction drill tap,rack,bang
7. Malfunction drill tap,rack +"rip drill"
8. Shooting on the move (forward and reverse)
9. Box drill
4 chairs create a box you must start at rear shoot 4 targets as you move around "box" (very difficult under stress)
10. blank blank :mad: figure 8 drill individual
same as above but using a figure 8 pattern (very difficult under stress)
11. blank blank blank :mad: figure 8 drill team relay
12. bullseye @ 25yds

Here are some pics


http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1000993.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010030.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010044.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010045.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010064.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010079.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010022.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010021.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010014.jpg
Walkback drill
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1010010.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/P1000999.jpg

[Joni Lynn]

Thanks for the report.
Great pics!
Looks like it was a swamp land.

[d90king]

Thanks for the report.
Great pics!
Looks like it was a swamp land.


Thanks Joni we were very lucky with the weather. It rained like crazy until about 1:30 or 2 and then stopped and was fine. The second day it was nice. In all honesty I am glad I sucked it up and trained in the rain. It wasn't to bad after you accepted it.

[Joni Lynn]

I giess it could have been worse, like a hurricane o blizzard. :)
I'm happy that you had a good time.

[d90king]

It was a sissy hurricane ;) My Baer didn't miss a beat. I used my SuperTac and it ran like a top. I should have changed the grips though. The 10-8 G10's killed me by the end of the second day. :scared:

[MoneyTree]

Very good report Patrick , so good in fact that I've read it twice so far . I found it very interesting . I'm glad you were able to enjoy yourself in spite of the weather , stress and pace of the course . Your photos add a sense of realism that words alone can't express . Again , thank you for taking the time to share this experience with us and for your PM's .

[d90king]

Very good report Patrick , so good in fact that I've read it twice so far . I found it very interesting . I'm glad you were able to enjoy yourself in spite of the weather , stress and pace of the course . Your photos add a sense of realism that words alone can't express . Again , thank you for taking the time to share this experience with us and for your PM's .


Thanks Money I hope you were able to pull a few things out of it. You and your wife can practice trigger drills. ;) The weather was more of a mental challenge than physically a challenge. It was a great weekend of learning.

[garrettwc]

Excellent review d90king. Don't worry about the writing, your words and pictures conveyed what the class was like very well. Sounds like you really enjoyed it and took away some things that you can add to the toolbox.

My next one will be a 1911 operators class which is 1911 specific and is 1 day shooting and 1 day breaking down your pistol completely and learning all parts of it and how they affect the pistol. At the end you will be able to diagnose problems on your 1911.
If you liked the 2-day pistol class, you are going to LOVE the operator class. Friends who have taken it say it is an intense 2 days, but you WILL understand exactly how the 1911 works afterwards, along with the added bonus of learning some of the tips and tricks Mr. Vickers has learned over the years.

In all honesty I am glad I sucked it up and trained in the rain. It wasn't to bad after you accepted it....The weather was more of a mental challenge than physically a challenge.
Good for you. This is something people need to think about and plan for in their overall defensive plan. It's not the checkering on your grips, or the type of front sight you have (although those help). It's your mental game that matters. Those nice tight groups shot on the indoor range, or on a sunny day, will go to pot quickly when you are soaked to the skin, your wet hair is draining water into your eyes, and you have the shivers.

[garrettwc]

Oh, almost forgot. Can you elaborate more on the 100yd "walkback" drill?

[Frank]

Wow, it sounds like a great class. And you told the story well. And good for you getting more training. It's good to get some more training regularly. It's fun and there's always more to learn

It's interesting that he seem to put a lot of stress on accuracy and had the class shooting at some long ranges. It's kind of contrary to the "self defense is short range and accuracy's not that big a deal" school of thought. But then again, Louis Awerbuck made something of an issue about accuracy as well. As I see it, you won't stop a fight by missing; you better be accurate on the range, because in a real "situation" your accuracy is going south; and if you can hit it quickly at 25 yards, you'll be able to hit it at 10.

What was the composition of the class: LE, private citizen, mixed?

Well you've go me interested. I wonder if he'll every do one of his classes more toward the left coast.

DVC

[Justin]

Very good, informative write up Patrick. I liked it so much that after reading it and talking to you on the phone I really wish I would've made it there afterall.

[John]

Patrick, excellent description and it looks as if you had the time of your life.

One remark. Larry appears to be gaining weight almost as fast as I am. :D :) :p

[d90king]

Excellent review d90king. Don't worry about the writing, your words and pictures conveyed what the class was like very well. Sounds like you really enjoyed it and took away some things that you can add to the toolbox.


If you liked the 2-day pistol class, you are going to LOVE the operator class. Friends who have taken it say it is an intense 2 days, but you WILL understand exactly how the 1911 works afterwards, along with the added bonus of learning some of the tips and tricks Mr. Vickers has learned over the years.


Good for you. This is something people need to think about and plan for in their overall defensive plan. It's not the checkering on your grips, or the type of front sight you have (although those help). It's your mental game that matters. Those nice tight groups shot on the indoor range, or on a sunny day, will go to pot quickly when you are soaked to the skin, your wet hair is draining water into your eyes, and you have the shivers.


Thanks Garrett , it was a great class that I learned a lot by taking. I am looking forward to the Operators class in Feb as I still have much to learn about the 1911's operation and function. :o It's funny I was very close to bailing on the class because of the rain, but once I was there and committed to the class it really was not a factor.( that said I was glad it was only a few hours). You are right on the money about those fancy groups you shoot at the range going out the window in a class like this and in bad weather. Thanks on the "hall pass" on the writing..... it's not my strong suite.. ;)

[d90king]

Oh, almost forgot. Can you elaborate more on the 100yd "walkback" drill?


The walkback drill was I believe reinforcing proper trigger pull and the impact it has as distance gets greater. You start at 25yds and everybody takes shot ( I missed 3 times) :butthead: after everybody goes those who make the shot stay in it and move back at 25yd intervals until you get to 100yds. Larry did it 1 handed with DA HK P35. :mad: I was impressed with others ability to make it past 50yds. If I remember correctly 5 or 6 guys made it to 100yds. Larry in no way was promoting shooting these distance regularly. It was more showing capabilities with proper trigger control and the impact of poor trigger control. :mad: :mad: It was very hard keeping in mind you are on center stage at your turn and it can be a little intimidating. :( hope this answers your question.

[d90king]

Wow, it sounds like a great class. And you told the story well. And good for you getting more training. It's good to get some more training regularly. It's fun and there's always more to learn

It's interesting that he seem to put a lot of stress on accuracy and had the class shooting at some long ranges. It's kind of contrary to the "self defense is short range and accuracy's not that big a deal" school of thought. But then again, Louis Awerbuck made something of an issue about accuracy as well. As I see it, you won't stop a fight by missing; you better be accurate on the range, because in a real "situation" your accuracy is going south; and if you can hit it quickly at 25 yards, you'll be able to hit it at 10.

What was the composition of the class: LE, private citizen, mixed?

Well you've go me interested. I wonder if he'll every do one of his classes more toward the left coast.

DVC


Thanks Frank, this class really highlighted for me the need for more training. It was a very well run class. He also does a low light class with Ken Hackathorn (in Ohio) that is supposed to be excellent. Keep in mind we did very very little long range shooting. The walkbacks and 1 round of 25yd bullseye to finish. Everything else was inside 15 yds. Generally the walkbacks were a wind down drill before lunch or a break. I was surprised at the breakdown of participants. I would say it was 65% CIV and 35% LE and Mil. It had a wide range of participants from surgeons to Special Forces class members. It would be great to see you in a class. I will keep a eye open for anything out on the left coast and let you know. The Hackathorn class is one to watch for and they generally fill up in a matter of hours.

[d90king]

Very good, informative write up Patrick. I liked it so much that after reading it and talking to you on the phone I really wish I would've made it there afterall.


Thanks Justin sorry you and Dan couldn't make it. I don't think I would have made the journey either from that distance. ;) We will have to try and plan the next one. It was great training and a great group of guys from all walks of life.

[d90king]

Patrick, excellent description and it looks as if you had the time of your life.

One remark. Larry appears to be gaining weight almost as fast as I am. :D :) :p


Thanks John it was a great class and a lot of fun. Yes I would say that Larry is having a twinkie or to every now and then. :scared: It's funny when you watch him on Weaponology and other TV shows he looks a little thinner. ;) It was funny when I was writing this last night I was watching him and Ken Hackathorn on Weaponology going over rifles and shooting them for accuracy.

[OD*]

Excellent report, Patrick. :appld:

[Trock]

Great training as usual. I'll have some short videos loaded up soon that I took of the emergency reload drill/competition.

Some people nailed it, and some, well, um.....some definitely needed the practice.

:)

[d90king]

Excellent report, Patrick. :appld:


Thanks Dan sorry the weather was so iffy it would have been great to meet up with you. :eb: We will have to see what we can put together in the next 12 months. It was a great class and I have no doubt that you would enjoy it.

[d90king]

Great training as usual. I'll have some short videos loaded up soon that I took of the emergency reload drill/competition.

Some people nailed it, and some, well, um.....some definitely needed the practice.

:)


Great to see you here Tim. :appld: Welcome aboard I was definitely one of the ones who needed the practice. :scared: :scared: I look forward to the video and thanks for the pics. To all Tim is a great guy who was at the class and is very well versed in all firearms and is involved in several other sites. M4carbine and others.

[MoneyTree]

Great training as usual. I'll have some short videos loaded up soon that I took of the emergency reload drill/competition.

Some people nailed it, and some, well, um.....some definitely needed the practice.

:)Welcome to the forum Tim , Patrick's endorsement goes a long way for me . It's great to meet you . Ed

http://img125.echo.cx/img125/8038/01welcome7jb.gif

[garrettwc]

It's interesting that he seem to put a lot of stress on accuracy and had the class shooting at some long ranges. It's kind of contrary to the "self defense is short range and accuracy's not that big a deal" school of thought.

Frank, here's a link to an article Larry Vickers wrote on why he stresses accuracy.

http://www.vickerstactical.com/Tips/accuracy.htm

One remark. Larry appears to be gaining weight almost as fast as I am.
Yeah, I think he's been skipping PT since retiring from the military. I still wouldn't want to tangle with him one on one in a fair fight though. :p

d90king, yes, that did answer my question. It's a variation on the receding bullseye drill it sounds like.

Tim Orrock, welcome to the forum. Looking forward to seeing the video.

[MoneyTree]

Frank, here's a link to an article Larry Vickers wrote on why he stresses accuracy.

http://www.vickerstactical.com/Tips/accuracy.htm Thanks for the great link Garrett , there's a lot of very good info on his site , especially the tactical tips . Yet more for me to read , I've been busy reading Joe Poyer's book on the 1911 for the last couple days . There are some advantages to being disabled , although I usually don't think so .

[Trock]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys.

I take a lot of pics at the Vickers Tactical classes that I attend, it really helps in understanding the course, the equipment variations, and, in some cases, the climatic conditions we have to deal with. :cool:

There were more 1911's in this class than I've seen in two years of Vickers classes. Some worked just fine........some didn't.

I'll try to post some more pictures, Patrick resized the ones of mine that he posted, I'll have to wait to get home to do so for some more that I have, and the videos.

Patrick, it was great training with you, I look forward to doing so again! :)

[Frank]

Tim, welcome. It's great to have you.

Frank, here's a link to an article Larry Vickers wrote on why he stresses accuracy.
Thanks. It's an excellent article.

DVC

[OD*]

Thanks Dan sorry the weather was so iffy it would have been great to meet up with you. :eb: We will have to see what we can put together in the next 12 months. It was a great class and I have no doubt that you would enjoy it.
If it would have been just me, or closer to home, I'd have done it anyway, but it wasn't. Getting something put together sounds like a winner to me. http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Trock]

Duel of the 1911's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOUvd2qyKdo

1911 shooter and a Glock shooter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV54Fz-eQuU

Self titled "Battle of the South Pacific":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivNd-KEVFWQ

Cop beats pilot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om0h162TwqE

So close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPwkJjfFtRg

Pat vs. Paul:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh40lI4Ne68

Oops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtsXb1S2dPM

[d90king]

Duel of the 1911's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOUvd2qyKdo

1911 shooter and a Glock shooter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV54Fz-eQuU

Self titled "Battle of the South Pacific":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivNd-KEVFWQ

Cop beats pilot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om0h162TwqE

So close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPwkJjfFtRg

Pat vs. Paul:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh40lI4Ne68

Oops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtsXb1S2dPM


Thanks for posting Tim they all look great well all but mine. :butthead: :butthead: My mag didn't release :( That was awful to have to watch over again. I was less than happy with that one. I really appreciate you putting these up for us to see over here.

[Trock]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Pistol%201%20Sept%206-7-08/Reduced/P1000997.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Pistol%201%20Sept%206-7-08/Reduced/P1010012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Pistol%201%20Sept%206-7-08/Reduced/P1010017B.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Pistol%201%20Sept%206-7-08/Reduced/P1010023.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Pistol%201%20Sept%206-7-08/Reduced/P1010047.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Pistol%201%20Sept%206-7-08/Reduced/P1010050.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Pistol%201%20Sept%206-7-08/Reduced/P1010068.jpg

[Ping Ping]

Nice report, brother. Very well covered and your excitement and enthusiasm shine through. I really wish we could have met up again while you were down here, but hey, there'll surely be another time.

Man, what I broad array of skillsets I see in the pics and videos Tim posted. There are some very solid fundementals and there are some... umm... strange things too. The great thing about getting "up the totem pole" with some of these training classes, is that you are better placed with shooters of similar skillsets. The basic classes are fun, but also a very mixed bag. Regardless, all good training is a very good thing!

Got your message Patrick and thanks. I'll ring you back soon.

A hearty welcome to the forum, Tim, and thanks for posting the vids. Your being a fellow Virginian is +1 to the good. ;)

[Jim D]

Glad to hear that it was a very positive experience for you, Patrick. I wish I had been able to make it.

We'll have to put some holes in some targets soon....it looks like I'm gonna be around a good while longer....

Cheers,
Jim

[John]

Risking to sound like the arm-chair commando, I noticed that several of the shooters in the above videos were lowering their gun holding hand almost to the level of their belt, when performing a reload. One thing I've learned long time ago is to keep my gun almost at eye-sight level when performing the mag change. From the shooting stance, bring your gun backwards and do the change. I am not sure how much faster it is, but it allows me to see the gun as I am performing the mag change, and also to be able to see my target while doing it. Both an advantage in ... socially unpleasant situations.

[d90king]

Risking to sound like the arm-chair commando, I noticed that several of the shooters in the above videos were lowering their gun holding hand almost to the level of their belt, when performing a reload. One thing I've learned long time ago is to keep my gun almost at eye-sight level when performing the mag change. From the shooting stance, bring your gun backwards and do the change. I am not sure how much faster it is, but it allows me to see the gun as I am performing the mag change, and also to be able to see my target while doing it. Both an advantage in ... socially unpleasant situations.


You are correct John that is why I need so much training. You are right on the money with eye level reloads. I will say it is much harder under pressure in a group class to retrain bad habits. I was awful I also didn't re holster properly. I have been practicing since getting home and on two trips to the range averaged 4 second 1 shot reload follow up shot and holter. I still have a lot of work to do. It was awful to have to watch over and over..... it was kind of like a car crash I just had to watch. :(

[d90king]

Glad to hear that it was a very positive experience for you, Patrick. I wish I had been able to make it.

We'll have to put some holes in some targets soon....it looks like I'm gonna be around a good while longer....

Cheers,
Jim


Yeah wish you could have made it. It was great training and well worth the trip. I am thinking of hosting Larry for a class up in Pa I will let you know what class and get some feedback on participation. I want to keep it to about 10 people or smaller so we can have a little more 1 on 1 attention. Lets get together and do some shooting soon.

[Trock]

Risking to sound like the arm-chair commando, I noticed that several of the shooters in the above videos were lowering their gun holding hand almost to the level of their belt, when performing a reload. One thing I've learned long time ago is to keep my gun almost at eye-sight level when performing the mag change. From the shooting stance, bring your gun backwards and do the change. I am not sure how much faster it is, but it allows me to see the gun as I am performing the mag change, and also to be able to see my target while doing it. Both an advantage in ... socially unpleasant situations.


That's exactly what Vickers teaches.

[d90king]

That's exactly what Vickers teaches.



Yup it just takes some longer to actually do it properly. :butthead:

[John]

That's exactly what Vickers teaches.

Ah, OK then, you guys didn't think I was telling stories....... Good to know that I am in accordance with Larry's teaching.

[OD*]

I am thinking of hosting Larry for a class up in Pa I will let you know what class and get some feedback on participation. I want to keep it to about 10 people or smaller so we can have a little more 1 on 1 attention. Lets get together and do some shooting soon.

I'd like in on that, Patrick.

[d90king]

I'd like in on that, Patrick.


Sorry Dan I missed this, I already had you and Justin down for attending. ;)

[OD*]

Very good Sir. If there is any way I can help bring this about, let me know.

[d90king]

Very good Sir. If there is any way I can help bring this about, let me know.


I will give you a buzz to discuss at some point soon.

[OD*]

Very good, Sir.

[G34Shooter]

I hope to take that class someday...