Ithaca M1911A1 Lend-Lease info please

[RECCE556]

Hey guys, I came across what I believe is a Lend-Lease Ithaca that I'm considering on purchasing. The odd thing is, is that this gun doesn't seem to have any of the normal British proof marks. From cursory examination I gave it, it does seem to have all the correct USGI proof marks (FJA, half-stamped ordnance, etc.) Unfortunately, I forgot to look at the barrel markings...I only had about a minute to look at the piece.

What it does have (which is why I think it's a Lend-Lease) is the "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 19XX" marking ("XX" because I couldn't make out the last two numbers as they're very lightly stamped and I had REALLY poor lighting) and some sort of odd "XXXXXXX" box marking. Here's a photo of another one that I found that shows the box marking (below the "M1911A1" text):

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL524/636041/1021439/293110993.jpg

The only difference between the one in the photo above and the one I saw was the the "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 19XX" was located along the front of the grip. So if you took the marking in the photo above and rotated counter-clockwise to the same angle as the grip, that's what it looked like. Kinda like the JLD importing stampings you see on some Sistemas. The font was exactly the same as photo above.

It also had two marks of some sort...one was behind the slide serrations (on the ejection port side) and the other was just below the slide on the frame. I couldn't make out the markings but it looked like a "spot weld" mark (but depressed). Probably some sort of stamping but I couldn't make out what it was.

If anyone has some info, please let me know. The gun was what I would consider a 90%+ condition gun (original finish as the ordnance mark seemed to show bare metal in the depressions....the FJA also looked like it showed some bare metal in the depressions but again, lighting was horrible there). It also had a "R" marked (top of toe) magazine in excellent condition.

Oh, the serial number was in the 1,44x,xxx range....

[wjkuleck]

You are aware, of course, that the British proof marks to which we have been accustomed were applied post-1955 when the arm [u]left[/i] the UK. The proof law of 1955 required that arms being exported be prooved and marked. Interamrs had a large warehouse in the UK from which Garands & other arms were exported, many of which ended back in the USA. Thus, the "Brit-proofed" Garands we see. An aside: since the Brits really didn't use the Garands we sent them under lend-lease, a Brit proof is generally a gilt-edged guarantee that the rifle is an unmolested original 1941 or 1942 specimen.

Thus, the absence of Brit proofs doesn't mean much one way or another in terms of Lend-Lease provenance. Heck, I've had a couple of "US Property" Savage No 4s that do not have Brit proofs, but which are most definitely "Lend Lease" (the US Property Mark).

Stippling out markings was a common Brit practice in the '40's and '50's. You'll see it on LEs that were significantly reconfigured during FTR (Factory Thorough Repair).

Regards,

Walt

[RECCE556]

Hey Walt, thanks for the info. I was not aware that 1955 was the date they started proofing. According to Clawson, even in 1952 they did commercial proofing before the guns were released.

Is there any sort of online reference guide for Lend-Lease specific to M1911A1's? I'd love to find out the origins of this particular one especially since it does have the extra "weld-like" markings on the rear of the slide and frame with apparently no other proofs or markings from what I can remember.

[wjkuleck]

De nada. Actually, proof has been required in the UK for a couple of hundred years. I did some research in Clawson's "Big Book" and found some corrections to my previous post.

MM1911A1 pistols surplussed by the British Government were indeed marked "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952." However, these pistols should also have been prooved per the 1925 law after being released but before being exported. The 1925 proof marks are quite a bit less obtrusive than the 1955 marks, those with which I'm familiar due to my work with Garands. Figures 5-17 and 5-18 in Clawson show M1911A1s with 1925 commercial proof marks.

If you look closely at the barrel in the picture you supplied, you can discern what are likely the '25 proofs—by position, if nothing else. There should be a "view" mark somewhere on the receiver, and on the slide, in addition to the three marks (proof, view, and nitro proof) on the barrel.

That strange "X"-ing on the frame may be either a poorly stamped "Not English Make" or an X'ed-out "Not English Make." The "Not English Make" was required by the '25 law, but not the '55 law.

Thanks for asking the question, as it resulted in my learning something whilst researching the answer.

Regards,

Walt

[1saxman]

What I can see of the frame looks to be a Colt.

[wjkuleck]

What I can see of the frame looks to be a Colt.

Please note that the pistol in the picture is an exemplar, not a picture of the actual Ithaca in question :) .

Regards,

Walt

[RECCE556]

If you look closely at the barrel in the picture you supplied, you can discern what are likely the '25 proofs—by position, if nothing else. There should be a "view" mark somewhere on the receiver, and on the slide, in addition to the three marks (proof, view, and nitro proof) on the barrel.

That strange "X"-ing on the frame may be either a poorly stamped "Not English Make" or an X'ed-out "Not English Make." The "Not English Make" was required by the '25 law, but not the '55 law.

Hey Walt, again, thanks for the info the the corrections. I didn't have a chance to get a good look at the barrel on the Ithaca and I can't recall if it had any sort of proof marks on the barrel hood.

As for the "view" marks on the slide and frame, what do these view marks look like? I did see that the frame/slide had some sort of "mark" on the rear of the slide and frame but they didn't look like any sort of discernable British marking. It looked like a depressed weld blob. Similar to what you see on a sound suppressor can (I'm not sure what they call that sort of welding...arc maybe?) I'm sure it wasn't a weld blob (nothing under those two areas that would require a weld) but it didn't look like any sort of stamping I've seen. They both looked the same however (most weld marks I've seen look a little different every time)

The X-ing on the frame I'm pretty sure it wasn't a poorly stamped NOTENGLISHMAKE mark as I've seen those and this was definitely purposely stamped that way (the X-ing on the Ithaca looked exactly the same as the sample photo of the Colt Lend-Lease) I think it might very well have beed used to X-out some sort of previous stamping as you hypothesized.

I wish I could get the shop to send me a photo of the barrel hood but the person at the shop didn't look like they even knew that Digital Cameras have been out for over a decade now. :)

[Scott Gahimer]

The x-ing in the photo of the Colt shown in this thread is enclosing a "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" marking.

The position and location of the "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT 1952" marking varied somewhat from pistol to pistol. Without photos of the specific pistol, I can't comment further, but it's probably legit.

1952 was the only year that "RELEASED..." stamp was used. So the last two digits you can't read are 52.

The little "blob" marks you describe are probably London Proof marks and are pre-1955 marks.

Hopefully you'll be able to post pictures of the specific pistol you are asking about.

[RECCE556]

Hey Scott, thanks for that info! Do you have a picture of the pre-1955 London proof marks? I was going to have the pistol shipped to my local FFL but I think I might need to take another long drive down to look at the pistol before I trade any greenbacks for it.

Based on the limited info I have given, should there be any proof marks on the barrel?

[wjkuleck]

Here you go, for Birmingham:

http://www.gunproof.com/Proofing/table.jpg

London is a bit different, with out the "B."

Regards,

Walt

[RECCE556]

Hey Walt, the "marks" definitely didn't have any letters. They COULD have been some poorly stamped crowns but they literally looked like "blobs". Well I guess I'll just have to take a better look and take a printout of this thread with me...also, this time, I'm taking a camera! :)

[wjkuleck]

Hey Walt, the "marks" definitely didn't have any letters. They COULD have been some poorly stamped crowns but they literally looked like "blobs". Well I guess I'll just have to take a better look and take a printout of this thread with me...also, this time, I'm taking a camera! :)

Hmm...whoever stippled out the "Not English Make" may have also taken a punch to the "View" mark on the frame, resulting in the "blob"-like appearance of the mark you report. If there are still proofs on the barrel hood, the ones on the slide and the frame would be the same as the "V" mark on the barrel.

Regards,

Walt
PS We eagerly await your report!!!

[Joel Babcock]

Hey Scott, thanks for that info! Do you have a picture of the pre-1955 London proof marks? I was going to have the pistol shipped to my local FFL but I think I might need to take another long drive down to look at the pistol before I trade any greenbacks for it.

Based on the limited info I have given, should there be any proof marks on the barrel?

RECCE556 - I'm not Scott, but I do have some photos of a London Proofed Colt 1911A1. These may be of help to you... In the top photo you can see the Crown over GP that is stamped into the rear of the frame and slide, and the bottom photo is of the barrel marks for a London proofed barrel.
hth,
Joel

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z281/usmcjb/home%20misc/1943BP4.jpg
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z281/usmcjb/home%20misc/1943BP6.jpg

[RECCE556]

Hey Joel, THANKS for that photo! Those two marks on the slide and frame look like the same marks that were on the Ithaca and at about the same location. Again, the lighting in the store was very bad so it was hard for me to make anything out. As a matter of fact, even in your photo, it's hard to really discern what those are. They still look like "weld blobs" :)

So I guess so long as the barrel has some markings on it, it's probably good to go. Thanks to EVERYONE for all the info! Hopefully, this thread can help someone else out too.

Hopefully, the Ithaca is still there and maybe I'll have some photos to share soon! :)

[wjkuleck]

RECCE556 - I'm not Scott, but I do have some photos of a London Proofed Colt 1911A1. These may be of help to you... In the top photo you can see the Crown over GP that is stamped into the rear of the frame and slide, and the bottom photo is of the barrel marks for a London proofed barrel.
hth,
Joel

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z281/usmcjb/home%20misc/1943BP6.jpg

I believe that the barrel photo shows the post-1955 proof marks. The 1924-1955 proof marks will look like those in the table I posted above.

Nice pistol, regardless!! If our experience with Garands is a guide, chances are this is an unmolested original.

Best regards,

Walt

[Joel Babcock]

I don't see the barrel marks in the table and maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the barrel marking on the pistol is a raised septer over NP.

[wjkuleck]

I don't see the barrel marks in the table and maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the barrel marking on the pistol is a raised septer over NP.

That would be the London version of the Nitro Proof barrel mark. It's an arm wielding something, perhaps a sword. The Birmingham version is the crown over a circled "NP."

Regards,

Walt

[RECCE556]

So a new crinkle in the mystery. I called the shop that has the gun and there are no stampings on the hood of the barrel at all. I would imagine that the barrel would have to be proof marked.

Based on the condition of the gun, I would think that it's unused or saw very little use but with no marking on the barrel, could it be a replacement barrel? And if that's the case, why replace the barrel on a near new gun?

I took a look at the half-ordnance stamp it looked like it was stamped after the parkerizing (as it should be) and since I have several refinished guns, I know what to look for and the slide/frame didn't look refinished.

Hmmmmm???

[Joel Babcock]

Someone needs to look the entire barrel over.... some London proofed 1911's/A1's had barrels marked much closer to the muzzle and no marking showed through the ejection port.

[wjkuleck]

Someone needs to look the entire barrel over.... some London proofed 1911's/A1's had barrels marked much closer to the muzzle and no marking showed through the ejection port.

Good info, Joel!

Thanks.

Regards,

Walt