On Take up, shims and half cock notches

[Aristotelian]

hey again fellas, I bought an adjustable trigger with a convenient little tab behind the shoe which could be bent down to eliminat pre travel, or "take up". Of course being a junior 1911 man i adjusted this thing out and fit it to have the most gorgeous 1911 trigger pull I had ever felt in my life... Where'd my half cock go.... ooo... so I looked around through the kuhnhausens and a few others.... looked back a ways in this forum and found a few references, including the procedure for welding shim to eliminate take up, which I should think would also eliminate the captive quality of the half cock feature, but no solid mention of acceptable standards for target or race 1911 trigger/half cock/take up. Is it acceptable have a non captive half cock?

Thanks fellas, for any input on the subject even the evolution of the techniques

[John]

I am a little puzzled on this.

The tabs behind the shoe are for adjusting pre-travel, as you correctly say. Why do you want to weld shims to eliminate pre-travel, if your trigger has the tabs to do that?

Now, you say you lost your half-cock? Do you mean the sear doesn't engage in the half-cock? Most probably your pre-travel adjustment is wrong, if that's what's happening. Also, why do you want to eliminate the captive half-cock? Some pistols don't have a captive half-cock, it all depends on your hammer.

In general, I would appreciate if you could clarify what your problem is and what exactly you want to learn.

[Hawkmoon]

Do you have NO half-cock, or a "non-captive" half-cock? Is this pistol a Series 80, or a non-Series 80? The Series 80 half-cock does not capture the hammer, and the hammer can still be dropped from half cock by pulling the trigger.

Did you leave ANY pre-travel? You have to have some, to ensure that the sear can reset fully. That tab is for adjusting the pre-travel (take-up), not eliminating it -- or worse.

[log man]

As Hawk mentioned pre-travel is required. Acceptable pre-travel is .045"-.0625" and needed to function properly. With pre-travel eliminated the half cock notch cannot fully engage.

LOG

[Aristotelian]

Hey fellas, sorry for being too obscure, the pistol is series 70, the hammer is Nowlen with captive half cock, When put in half cock by either method I can pull the trigger and the hammer drops, this is clearly because the pretravel is adjusted too far rearward and the bottom of sear cannot rotate forward enough to clear captive hook of hammer and become fully retained. (The sear is standing on the hook) My inexperience, and the form of publication at my disposal leaves me to wonder if it is OK, to sacrifice the captive halfcock, for a great trigger pull. And if so, should I simply switch hammers. The hook on the half cock notch of this hammer, like so many others is located centrally so as to prevent battering of the sear engagement surfaces, so it looks to me that it would be ok, but the thought of time, wear and follow through... other possible liabilities.... Can any of you tell me the procedure to professionally arange the pistol so that I can have the zero pretravel trigger pull and a safe 1911, in the same package.

I do not need to weld shim, the fact that others have, makes me ask the above questions. Thanks again guys

[KellyHopkinsville]

Speaking personally, I would be more than a little leery of any adjustment I made that prevented the trigger/sear/disco/hammer system from working as intended. Put another way, I wouldn't think a trigger that failed a function test was all that great ;). I do think your best bet would be to re-adjust the tab on your trigger to allow the proper amount of pre-travel. I don't imagine it would make your trigger pull that much worse and it would get things back to normal in your fire-control system. :appld:

KH

[log man]

Without any pretravel your trigger will not be dependable, but where is the problem with .045" of pretravel, when shooting, releasing the trigger to the point that it resets is all that's necessary to take the next shot. Once you develop muscle memory with it, what's the problem.

LOG

[Hawkmoon]

Can any of you tell me the procedure to professionally arange the pistol so that I can have the zero pretravel trigger pull and a safe 1911, in the same package.
You can't.

As both Logman and I posted above, you MUST have some pre-travel in order to ensure that the sear can reset fully. Having the sear engage the tips of the half-cock hooks rather than the notch is an extremely unsafe condition.

[John]

OK, take a deep breath and think it over again.

The fact that your sear is stopped on the half-cock only by an edge, means that it that edge slips, your gun will fire. Do you want that? Do you want your gun to fire when it should have stayed at half-cock?

Two more things: Adding pre-travel will NOT affect your trigger pull, if your sear/hammer engagement is done properly. It will just allow your sear to rotate its full designated travel and work as it is supposed to be working.

Second, if your sear is not fully engaging the half-cock notch, who's telling you that it is fully engaging the hammer hooks? What you have most probably in your hands, is an unsafe pistol.

[Aristotelian]

Thanks fellas, The night before I asked the question I backed it off so it would function as intended. The pistol is now safe. I was hoping there was an alternative that I had not seen. Perhaps a hammer which had slightly different and accomodating geometry... I understand there just may not be enough room to make an easy, or possible job of that, I just havent done the math on it. Thanks I'm sure you've saved me a great deal of time.

[RickB]

What's the appeal of zero take-up? Except in dry-fire, I can't tell if a gun has any or not, and if so, how much. Why try to create an artificial condition of no trigger movement?

[toolman]

I could understand zero take-up on a bench rest rifle where the trigger pull is measured in ounces, but on a 1911? A little bit of take-up just doesn't seem to matter to me. The trigger just isn't that sensitive.

[Aristotelian]

Interesting, the accuracy of a shot is ofcourse allways more dependant on the shooter and not the fire arm. Perhaps if the bench rest rifle had not been engineered to have as little trigger travel as possible one would then as well think it not necessary, just as before rifleling all barrels were smooth.

One of you posted I believe as a quote a note denouncing the viability or usefullness of a grip safety... I hope that was some kind of a joke. No, a gun dose not have to have a grip safety to be handled in a safe manner. Yes there have been many incidents cited where had the gun had a grip safety, accidents would have been avoided.

When you think of these two points, the Irony of the exchange of ideas/information and the difference of perspective from one man to another, sometimes is percieved as unimaginably out of proportion as i can gather.
One man says "I dont even need sights", while the other is willing to sacrifice his well being to have... what?

[Hawkmoon]

Aristotelian, you came here with a technical question, to which you have received answers from several qualified people. You are now departing from the original question and, it appears, looking to start an argument. We don't do that here.

This thread is closed.