So My Wilson still has FRTB issues....

[Mrick]

I've posted here before about my Wilson Combat CQB Elite and some issues i've had with FRTB. Basically i have had american eagle and WWB hardball 230 grain rounds get stuck chambering with the nose of the round pointing upwards into the chamber locking up the pistol. This has happened with multiple 47D mags. I'm at 1 FRTB in 450 rdns right now which while not so bad is rather frustrating. It's been back to wilson twice for this issue and it didn't seem to resolve the problem. Both times they looked over the pistol, polished the breechface, cleaned up the area near the firing pin and refitted the extractor with proper tension. Im leaning towards maybe mag issues as the two 47D mags that had a problem seem to have a gritty feel when pushing the follower down from the bullet nose side of the mag. I tried cleaning one that was like this but i still had the issue after cleaning. My other mags and ETM mags all are smooth when pushing down the follower. Any advice? I really want to like this pistol......

[wichaka]

I would try other mags, and see what results you get.

[John]

+1 for what Steve said. Get some different mags.

[Mrick]

Just wanted to add that the last time this happened it was the very last round in my 47d 8rd mag. These mags have seen probably about 500 rounds of use. I will try to reproduce using my trouble free ETM mags.

[Mrick]

ok, I hit the range over the weekend and shot 250 rounds without incident, 150 of which were through one of my mags that I had experienced FRTBs with. I'm thinking it's gun related as it's happened in the past with diff mags. Very annoying.

[niemi24s]

Keep a camera with you when you shoot and take picture the next time it happens. We're particularly interested in the position of case head on the breech face showing the relation of the case rim to the extractor and/or firing pin hole.

A good measurement of how far back the slide was from battery will also help diagnose the problem.

A pic is worth a zillion words.

[Mrick]

yep, I had the camera with me to do so but of course no malfunctions. I can say that the slide is usually 3/4 the way home from my recollection though. I wish I could have looked to see if the case is contacting the extractor

[berkbw]

Just flinging some silly stuff here- If possible [$$] remove the disconnector, etc, from the slide, and see if gravity will pull the slide, both ways, 'cross the frame. If NOT, then you need to mis Tuners slurry and lap it in. If you do not have this problem, check out timing in the stickies and look for a fail. If you find one - get it fixed - but by trying for 500~1k times it might fix itself" [yeah, I know were up to a few k rds, already.

Remove the recoil spring - when you manually, and under control, rack the slide on an EMPTY gun w/o mag inserted, do you feel a "hitch"in the "get-a-long" as you move the slide fwd? If you do, then you might have a link length problem - send it back with annotations of why you might think this.

The 1911 is a very simple system - once you understand several hundred variables. - - which "old pros" like tuner can go thru in less than a minute. Lesser "pros" take longer.

I sounds like you had a fit problem which is fixing itself.

On the 47d - use FINE abrasive paper in the inside of the mag... and a bit of polish on the follower, remember to just bust the corners, top/bottom a BIT.. Militec-1 is a nice lube here for testing. Don't go hog wild, just catch the high points if there ARE any. An undersized follower can show you the roughness, also.

There is also a possibility that your extractor clearance might go away when the left side of the gun gets fouled. (never seen that).

If you hate details - you can always swap innards 'twixt mags - but since bad #1 isn't that bad anynore.............

b-

[Mrick]

Thanks for the advice. I'll check out and let you know if i find anything.

[Tracker10X]

Had the same problem with my wife's Elite--put in an 18.5 # recoil spring--end of problem.

[niemi24s]

Had the same problem with my wife's Elite--put in an 18.5 # recoil spring--end of problem.
Perhaps only the apparent end of the problem. The cause of the initial problem still exists, and it has merely been masked by the installation of the 18.5lb recoil spring.

A good-running 1911 should run just fine with a 14 or 16lb spring. The fact it took a 18.5lb spring to make it work is a sign there's something still wrong with the gun. 18.5lb springs put unnecessarily high impact loads on the slide stop and its frame holes.

But it is, after all, your gun. And this is the land of the free and the home of the.......

[John]

What Niemi said. You just masked the problem, didn't solve it.

[Jim Watson]

Could be an undersize chamber. "Minimum Match Chamber", don'cha know, old chap?

I have a gun with Wilson barrel that was brilliantly accurate but subject to FTRTB. A pass with a sharp SAAMI spec chamber reamer corrected the hangups. Didn't hurt the accuracy, although now its best accuracy is with a different load.

[niemi24s]

Could be an undersize chamber. "Minimum Match Chamber", don'cha know, old chap?
Excellent point!

Tracker10X & MRick: Maybe a chamber casting (or lead slugs beaten to fill it at the chamber face and stop shoulder) would reveal something. Or, use a hole gauge to get measurements there.

[52dragon1911]

18.5lb springs put unnecessarily high impact loads on the slide stop and its frame holes.

.......

i've seen slide stop notch on a frame peened due to a 18.5# spring. Some slides will peen faster than others. i'm not naming any names.

[45-autoloader]

:appld: I agree with tracker10x,this is a recoil spring issue.A heavier recoil spring should straighten it right out.you also could put in a new mag spring,check these things out and let me know.

[berkbw]

Ummm The notch would not be MY concern. The holes in the frame which mount the stop pin may enlarge, towards the muzzle. This starts to become expensive.

b-

[52dragon1911]

Ummm The notch would not be MY concern. The holes in the frame which mount the stop pin may enlarge, towards the muzzle. This starts to become expensive.

b-


i couldn't agreed more...i use 16# and nothing more than that. i would knock two coils off my 18.5# spring before ever using it.

[John]

Gentlemen, please be a little careful here.

1. Every 5" 1911 should work fine with a 16 lbs spring. If it doesn't (and it works with an 18.5 lbs spring) then there is a problem with the pistol and the heavier spring is not correcting the problem, it's just masking it.

2. Cutting coils off a spring doesn't alter its rate. While it alters the preload, the spring is still an 18.5 lbs spring, just as it was before cutting the coils.

3. Areas which may suffer from an excessively heavy recoil spring are the barrel's legs, the slide stop and the slide stop holes on the frame. What is interesting is an experiment run by George @ EGW, with an aluminum slide stop. One would expect that an aluminum slide stop would not stand the beating of normal operation. What was shown was that it withstand it fine, without significant wear. So I would tend to believe that your barrel's legs would be the first to suffer and the frame holes will follow.

[berkbw]

Yes, John - the bbl lugs will be the 1st to show problems. BTW, it's not "wear" in the normal definition, more like forging.

The correction: I "think" the the change in shape of the frame holes will more probably be at an angle, each slide side hole angled initially out-to-in toward the muzzle.

As I stated, it isn't going to instantly destroy the gun. And as you said, the lower lugs would probably be the 1st to go. But [thinking "long term" here] - IF enough rounds are sent down range - it "may" [I hope I used that word] cause said frame damage.

What DOES break slide stops, anyway?

b-

[Mrick]

I agree that the gun should work with the 16lb spring and won't be changing it. I disassembled the pistol last night and didn't find and rough spots using the gravity method discussed above. Slide feels really nice. Hopefully tonight I can check for the link issues.

[berkbw]

As related to another post, drop a live cartridge in the bbl and see: #1 does it fall all the way down?;#2 is there any side-play in the chamber? should be a tad.

[John]

Good question. Ask George, I am sure he will have some explanation which probably includes three letters, M, I, M and the word defects.

[berkbw]

Huh?



?

[Mrick]

Dropped a round into the barrel and it does go in fully and there is just a bit of side to side wiggle room. I did find something somewhat interesting though. If i slide the bullet in at a slight upward angle i can get it to hang up on the top of the chamber pretty [darn] good. Ah but i just tried this with my colt and i get a similar deal so i don't think its abnormal.

[John]

Berkbw, I was answering this rhetorical question of yours:

What DOES break slide stops, anyway?

[berkbw]

Berkbw, I was answering this rhetorical question of yours:
OOPS! - slipped right past me.

Great answer.

b-

[Mrick]

So I hit the range again today with the Wilson and the second mag in i got the FRTB malfunction. Thinking wisely i took some pics with my iphone but they didn't come out to well so i put the pistol away as it was. So here it sits in front of me with my FRTB. I took some pics with my new camera....

This occurred on the last round in the problematic magazine but has happened in different mags previously.

Here it is from the side:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture028.jpg

Another from the side:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture031-1.jpg


Here's a shot of the extractor:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture026.jpg

Another:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture025.jpg

I'm not actually sure if the round is wedged between the left side of the frame and the extractor as it looks like it may be just before it slides under the extractor. It really is hard to tell even with my eye right in there and my surefire shining on it! What do you guys think? I can take more pics if needed. I also need to figure out how to work this new camera!

Before anyone asks about extractor tension...previous to this range session i set the extractor tension to 25oz using a trigger pull guage and extractor tension guage so it should be fine.

Also, can a moderator edit the title of my post to show that it now has pics as i don't believe i can do that.

[52dragon1911]

Here's a shot of the extractor:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture026.jpg

.


to me it looks like your extractor tension is way too tight comparing to my two Kimbers and my project 1911.

[Mrick]

I edited to add the extractor was tensioned to 25 oz before the range visit. The pics may be at an odd angle if thats what your referring to. It's hard to take pics of this.

[Mrick]

Ah, Macro mode...Here's more pics showing the extractor up close.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture060.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture061.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture062.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture063.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture066.jpg

[52dragon1911]

Ok....here's a pic of my Kimber extractor. See how little tension comparing to yours.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/52dragon/Picture405.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/52dragon/Picture406.jpg

[John]

How on earth do you compare tension, by viewing the pictures alone?

The man said that he measured the extractor tension by a scale. Now, while it may indeed be the extractor tension playing tricks to him, it is impossible to judge tension by eyeballing the extractor.

Mrick, just for the heck of it, loosen up that extractor a little. I have never used a gauge for the tension, my usual test is to slide a live round under the extractor (slide removed from the frame, barrel etc removed). The round should stay there, drooping down a little. If shaken lightly the round should stay there. If shaken more vigorously, it should fall off.

Come back to us on this.

[Mrick]

Yeah John i've done those tests and it is setup properly. I got the guage to measure it to make sure it was set to correct tension. Also, wilson set the tension twice on it when it was sent back for this issue yet these malfs where still occurring.

Oh and i think 52Dragon is being thrown off by my extractor looking diff than his kimbers maybe?

[John]

One more question. How is the top edge of your barrel's ramp? It shouldn't be sharp. If it is, you can break its edge by a pocket knife. You shouldn't overdo it, just break the sharp corner there, if there is one.

Please post some more pictures as below:

Take the slide off the frame, remove the barrel and place it on the frame. Pass the slide stop through the pistol, making sure you pass it through the barrel's link. Then press the barrel back and down, as far back as it will go. Hold the barrel there and show us a picture shot from above and from the side, a little higher than the barrel axis. What I want to see is the gap between the frame's feeding ramp and the barrel's lower ramp edge.

[berkbw]

I noticed that in one of the pix that the round was NOT behind the extractor. I'm thinking that you have maybe 2 problems: too little fore/aft room at the extractor and a mag releasing the round early.

Just ideas.
b-

[Mrick]

John, I don't think there's a sharp edge on the barrel ramp but i'll double check tonight when i take the gun apart. I'll also take some pics of the gap between the frame ramp and barrel ramp. Just wanted to make sure i have all the necessary pics before i clear the round.

[John]

I'm thinking that you have maybe 2 problems: too little fore/aft room at the extractor and a mag releasing the round early.

That was my thought too, when I saw the above pictures, but if you carefully look at the second picture of #31 above, it doesn't appear to be the case. Even though the hook of the extractor seems to be a bit narrow, in that second picture, it looks as if it is OK. Of course, it is difficult to be sure, by the pictures alone.

One more thing that can be a problem, is if the lower edge of the extractor hook is not rounded a little. If it is as pointing as the top edge, it might be the reason why the rim of the round can't slide under the extractor hook.

[Mrick]

The bottom edge of the extractor hook is indeed rounded.

[John]

Here goes another suspect. :(

Also, what mags are you using with this pistol? I know the first one was a 47D, but what is your second mag?

Have you ever tried a hybrid lips magazine, like either Colt 7 rounders or Checkmate ones?

And if you remember, do those stopages occur with the first couple rounds in the mag? The last couple of rounds? Any round?

[Mrick]

I use 3 types of mags with the pistol. A bunch of 47d 8 rounders, 2 8 round Wilson ETM mags and two 7 round colt mags that came with my series 70 repro. All failures have occurred with the 47ds but I don't use the others as often. I believe the issues have been mostly middle to last few rounds in the mag. The last two I encountered with this mag were the last round.

[Jim Watson]

1. Try chambering a round with the extractor out of the gun. Does it run up the ramps and into the chamber smoothly or bumpity-bump? If it chambers easier with the extractor out, it may not be as well fitted as they think.

2. Does a cartridge that does not make it into the chamber when firing have a crescent shaped dent in the case about .1" below the casemouth where it stuck against the chamber mouth? Q.V. "three point jam."

I had a parts gun exhibit similar misfunctions at an IDPA match on Saturday. Tomorrow it will be examined by a different gunsmith than the guy who assembled it. From a verbal description, he expects to at least round over the chamber mouth if not completely rethroat it and to check the extractor fitup.

A poster on another board once said: "A gun should shoot reliably after only one trip back to the maker."

[Mrick]

I'll try these suggestions as well. Any more description of the sound or what I'm actually listening for? Before clearing should I try to tap the barrel on a flat surface to see if the round chambers? I'll post pics of the round once removed to look for the crescent marking.

[niemi24s]

Before clearing should I try to tap the barrel on a flat surface to see if the round chambers?

No.

First, use a magic marker to ID the top of the case (may prove useful later).

Second, push on the back of the slide to see if it chambers.

Third, if it doesn't chamber, then tap on the muzzle with a wooden stick (such as a hammer handle, holding onto the hammer head). Don't tap the muzzle onto anything. Tap it with something

Excellent idea to gather more info.

Be careful - assuming that's a live round stuck in there.

[Jim Watson]

Any more description of the sound or what I'm actually listening for?

A well setup gun makes almost no noise while chambering hardball; it runs up the ramps into the chamber with a slight ka-chink. You can hear and feel the hesitation of the bullet hitting every possible obstacle on the way in, if the gun is not well set up.

Before clearing should I try to tap the barrel on a flat surface to see if the round chambers?

No. That would do no good.

I'll post pics of the round once removed to look for the crescent marking.

I bet it will be there.
Tuner gives several causes besides the obvious ones of sharp chamber mouth and extractor interference, but I am not qualified to judge on them. It is serious gunsmith work to correct them. Surely Wilson can handle it if you send them the gun again, along with the above pictures of the gun in stoppage and of the crescent cut case.

[Mrick]

Alright, I took a sharpie and colored the top of the round and proceeded to try and push somewhat lightly on the back of the slide to chamber and no luck. I then took a small piece of 2X4 and lightly tapped on the muzzle three times and to my surprise the round chambered. I then ejected the round and snapped some pics.

Here is the top of the round:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture068.jpg

Here is a slight marking counterclockwise from top a bit:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture072.jpg

And here is a few of the bottom of the round when chambered showing some marking:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture070.jpg

Another

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture073.jpg

What do you guys think?

Hmm, i just noticed there is a bit of what looks to be fmj on the slide stop as well. Could that contribute?

[Mrick]

Two of the slide stop:

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture075.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture076.jpg

[niemi24s]

Your 2x4 test and the third pic showing the circumferentioal crease back about .15" from the case mouth confirm a hard 3-point jam.

Although it's really hard to tell from the pix, that cartridge appears to have suffered a fair amount of bullet setback - but maybe not.

What's its OAL and how does it compare to similar unchambered ammo?

What kind of ammo is it?

Can't say about the copper residue on the slide stop, but I think it's just evidence of the cartridges ending up fully forward in the magazine due to recoil.
A round of Ball ammo should miss it if the round's aft in the magazine.

[Mrick]

The round is Federal American Eagle 230gr. It may be slightly set back but im not sure as it's the only hardball round i have handy. Here's a pic next to a Hydra Shok 230gr if it helps.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q260/robe2103/Picture.jpg

[Mrick]

So I guess im going to have a chat with the wilson guys about what to do to resolve this issue.