MY FIRST REAL GUNSMITHING PROJECT - P14 Accurized

[IridiumRed]

Hey Guys

Just got done with my first "real" gunsmithing project

I have a Para Ordnance Limited Stainless P14. Got it with about 1000 rounds through it, an aftermarket ambi safety, tru glo (or some kind of dot) optic front sight

Installed a stainless arched mainspring housing

wrapped the front grip strap with traction/friction/skateboard tape (I thought it would look terrible, work great, but actually it looks pretty good!)
Installed an oversized tungsten guide rod

Polished everything inside as well as i could

The hard parts:

Dlask short trigger (magnesium shoe, Ti trigger bow - I've got really small hands, I needed the short trigger, and its all i could find in Brownells' for a Para - didn't HAVE to have the exotic metals)

Wilson extractor

Kings extended slide safety, stainless. I cut back the front edge to make it more comfortable, and polished it

The hardest parts!!!

Tightened the frame/slide. Went from approx .010" vertical and horizontal play (measured with shims/feeler gauges) to about .002" in both directions. Hand lapped, was pretty smooth w/o shooting, now super smooth. Easily passes the 30 degree tilt test (stripped frame/slide, slide should start to move by the time the frame is tilted to 30 degrees).

Used the 4 point method, and did peen/bevel at each corner (made sure to lower the whole slide rail, not just the tip). Used brownell's tools (X style vise for the slide, the slide fitting bars/holder, etc)

Welded up the barrel. I did, in this order:
The sides of the hood. Did one side first, then the other side
Back of the hood. The original had about .010 of horizontal play. headspace is still within spec.
Then did the bottom barrel lugs. Welded them up, then cut them back using brownell's barrel lug cutting kit (which has the barrel support to hold the barrel, the barrel lug cutter/handle, the pusher handle, etc)

Got the barrel into 100% vertical lockup, and hte firing pin strike is not too far off center either. Absolutely zero play at the back end of the barrel, and the bottom lugs are riding directly on the slide stop pin, not being jacked up by the link pin only

Also fitted a Brown's match barrel bushing. Unfortunately, the OD was too small for the slide. It just dropped in right out of the box...! So I welded it up a bit on the outside, then filed it down to get close, then finally lapped it in by hand.
I'd say about .001 of play with the bushing/barrel/slide, BUT the whole thing can be disassembled by hand

I had a few issues at first with feeding, discovered that the frame saver was hanging up on the barrel a bit. Trimmed it down a bit (it was squashed out b/c I had squeezed it around an oversized tungsten guiderod), and now the gun works perfectly!

Its got about a 22, maybe 24 lb spring in it (the big guide rod won't take regular springs, haven't been able to find anything different yet that will fit), but now it functions perfectly with hardball

How do I add attachments?? I've got pics I'd like to show

Btw, the gun now consistently shoots 1 to 1.5" 5 shot groups, offhand at 7 yards (with winchester whitebox walmart hardball) Thats as good as I can do! I've got some targets showing 4 or 5 groups like that in a row.....

I was kinda scared of doing this project, I really wanted to do it but was scared about ruining the gun. I know I dont need great accuracy to shoot pins/plates, but..... I love working on stuff

I'm just happy the gun shoots as well as it does!

Sorry for the long post, I'm just happy, thought i'd share :) This is by far the biggest gunsmithing job I've attempted. Just want to say thanks to Kuhnhausen!!!

Steve

PS - figured out how to add pics (hopefully)!

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14007.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14003.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14002.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14001.jpg
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14007.jpg)

[Bud White]

Good deal targets look excellent .. I would have been afraid welding up the stuff i can weld but certainly not a pro ....


Im gonna start a comp gun project soon on a trophy match that has seen better days i picked up

How about soem more pic of the parts you worked on ? i know its hard to tell if the rail and slide have been tightened but the other stuff should show up good

[Joni Lynn]

Very nice. I have no clue how to weld but it looks like you've done a good job.........congrats :):)

[CTDinMT]

Well, as they say, "proofs in the pudding"! Groups look good, so I'd say you did a fine job! -Steve

[IridiumRed]

Hey guys

as requested, more pics of the parts. These pics were a lot harder to take, we're talking a lot small items here. Did the best I could....

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14019.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14024.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14022.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14021.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14033.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/IridiumRed/P14020.jpg

Btw, the frame rails aren't super pretty. I had to beat the living H*&% out of them. I had to lower them .010, which from what i understand is quite a bit. I got a big frame rail punch from Brownell's, single side only, and i just couldn't get the frame mounted solidly enough to use that big punch. I ended up using a much smaller punch to focus the force. Maybe stainless makes it harder?

I had to do the frame rails twice. The first time i got them lowered, but it was only the tips. I effectively bent the rail downwards, instead of moving the whole thing. So as soon as I started lapping it in, the clearances started getting big.

So I had to take another pass at them. Compared to Kuhnhausen's book where he shows the different types of frame rail lowering, what I did is pretty close to the "peen and bevel" method. Top edge is somewhat rounded off, but the bottom edge is parallel or close to it, with a lot of bearing surface (hopefully equaling long life before getting lose). Also, the first time I used a .115 bar on both sides, to be conservative. The second time I used the .114 bar.... which made a huge difference as well.

After I lowered the rails again I spent quite a while filing/stoning the frame rail sides so that I had a nice set of parallel rails from front to back. The rails were lowered enough that the TOPS of the frame rails were hitting the top inside edge of the slide rails. Most of that got lapped out with the first frame-rail lowering

The worst part of all of it might have been the welding! I have heard about it for a long time, but I'll be damned if I could find any good info on it.

I knew what parts of the barrel were welded up/oversized, but didn't know any special tricks/techniques. Kuhnhausen's book doesn't talk about any of it. He prefers new, match grade parts (which is understandable)

Also, it seems like all the old gunsmith's/armorer's just mention it in passing, as "back in the old days we had to ........"

So yeah, I could have bought an oversized barrel, cut it down, but what the heck?? I'm 29 years old, sometimes I like doing things the old / hard way....
B/c when you're done, somehow it feels more "earned"

Heck, if I ever do something like this again I can always go the match barrel route.... and feel the appreciation for the time saved!! (and, probably get a better product and certainly something with tighter headspace)

So I fired up the welder and went at it!!! I have a small wire fed MIG.... no shielding gas (which you should have for stainless) so I had to be really careful and make like 4, 5 passes on each section before I got a good solid weld......

Anyways, thanks for all the kind words guys (and gals), I am fairly new to m1911.org but have read a lot of posts on here, and I respect what you guys have to say

Steve

[Hawkmoon]

You, Sir, are a very brave man. I'm an inveterate tinkerer, but there's no way that I would attempt either peening the rails of one of my children, or welding their barrels.

[IridiumRed]

You, Sir, are a very brave man. I'm an inveterate tinkerer, but there's no way that I would attempt either peening the rails of one of my children, or welding their barrels.

Thank god it worked out, no?? :)

I used to travel for work. I'd go over to Africa (as an accountant for an operation with a bunch of grain mills all over the continent). Usually went for 3 weeks at a time.

I've read Kuhnhausen's books a bunch of times, but on my last African trip they were the only "casual reading" books I brought (along with his book on the M1 / M14). So for 3 weeks I had nothing else to read / do when I wasn't working besides read those books

That was over a year ago.... and the itch to own a nice .45 just got to be too much to bear. So I bought this P14 a couple of months ago and decided to bite the bullet

I figured with the frame rails, if I went to far I could always lap the tightness back out.... and it couldn't end up looser than it was (.010 is quite a bit)

And, with the barrel, well, it was just the factory barrel. If I screwed it up, I'd just go get a match barrel and be done with it

Honestly though, this whole project was 10% thought 90% sweat. Took me 3 long days to do it. 1 day for the frame/slide, 1 day for the barrel, 1 day for all the other fitting

[stans]

Nice job!!!

[IridiumRed]

Thanks again for the kind words!!

I was pretty nervous about posting on here about what I did.

The gun shoots pretty well, but there are plenty of people who could pull out their Les Baers / other high dollar customs and say "THIS is a nice gun and look what it looks like and how it shoots..." !

I've got a friend with a Ransom rest, I need to try that one of these days, I'd really like to see what my gun would do with a "perfect" rest and match ammo.... I wonder if it could get down to around 1" at 25 yards.. thats really pushing it though I think..... but who knows. If it did 2.5 - 3" at 50 yards I'd be very happy, thats "basic" Les Baer range... :)

Although, I will say one thing, my gun doesn't do first shot fliers. the first shot goes EXACTLY where aimed. Any fliers that occur are usually 4, 5 rounds into the mag, when I might slack off and lose concentration

I'm going to the range today (the targets shown above I shot at a buddy's farm) . My other buddy just bought a P14. Actually, I loaned him the money to do it (I know him well, loaned him money before). Its his first gun!!

He got a great deal on a P14 stainless Ltd. $695 + S&H, came with 6 factory high cap mags....! (Gunbroker rules!!)

So I'm buying 4 of the mags from him for $95 (I get a good deal on the mags, I did help him buy the gun)

So today, I get a bunch of mags (I only have 1 right now) but more importantly I get to go shoot with my buddy today who is going to drop the hammer for the first time on the first gun he's ever owned. He's shot my P14 a few times, and has shot some of my other guns / or guns owned by other people.... but never had one of his own
His gun just got in yesterday

Today is gonna be a lot of fun! I haven't been to a "formal" range (indoor, nice lighting and all that) since I did the accuracy work on mine, so I'll really get a chance to work mine out

So anyways, I'll try to bring some more targets back. How good would it be if I could do 3" offhand 5 shots at 25 yards.... consistently?

Steve

[ETAC]

Hey IridiamRed. I must say, good initiative . However I agree with Hawkmoon in that you are very brave. Hopefully nothing blows up or breaks apart. Welding up a barrel is not wise. The heat from welding alone could weaken the grain sructure of the barrel. Also the amount of carbon used to make the barrel may not be the same as the welding wire used. Peening is a short term fix to a long term problem. In my opinion, you have an unstable and unsafe pistol. Take a lesson from professional gunsmiths; buy parts oversize and finish them (i.e. file, sand, lapp-in, polish, whatever...) to their final size. NEVER compromise the structural integrity of a properly manufactured part. Your safety as well as those around you is important.

[IridiumRed]

I appreciate the viewpoint

however -

how else can i tighten the frame/slide without peening? Welding up the rails and then cutting them down? But then we have the welding issue. Maybe its better that its on the frame

On the barrel welding -

Gunsmiths, especially military armorers, welded up a lot of guns for a lot of time. I mostly heard that they often didn't have good results (ie, the guns didn't shoot that well accuracy wise) not that they were unsafe

when i welded the barrel, first of all I used stainless steel wire on it. Now, it could be a different type of stainless. granted. But i used EXTREMELY short bursts to do it.

Also, I had the barrel clamped in my vise, with brass shims, and I had barrel slid down in the vise jaws as far as possible. The LAST thing that I wanted was to get any real heat on the upper barrel lugs.

When I was welding up the hood, the sides of the chamber were kept cool by the vise jaws/shims

Now, maybe i caused some weird crystalization. But I was using a MIG welder, not an arc welder or torch! About as localized as the heat could be



As final proof, I fired about a dozen .45 super rounds through it today (230 gr at 1150) with no ill effect. Should that count for something?

Not trying to be a jerk, I do appreciate the input, but I think maybe you're being overzealous in your caution??

Steve

[kotonk]

nice job, steve. you got more chutzpah than all of us wanna be gunsmiths combined. :)

i was thinking of welding up the frame rails myself long time ago. i got some tips from a gunsmith. he said to preheat the frame to 400 degrees to relieve some of the stress of welding on the part. he also said using a tig is the way to go if you're going to weld for gunsmithing.

i ending up not having to weld up the frames. i was able to pinch the slide to remove the side to side play(my up/down play was minimal).

i still need to weld a little...i'm using a kings hi-grip beavertail that leaves small gaps showing between the frame and BT that i need to fill in. but i'm reluctant to pickup a low end tig welder(i'm looking at a miller maxtar 150) cuz i'm not sure if that's enough to cover the type of welding i need(i don't have a 220v outlet so the 150 is my only choice right now).

re: the safety of welding a barrel. pat sweeney in one of this gunsmithing books mentions the possiblity of cracked parts that have been welded. he has a picture of a cracked hood on an improperly welded barrel. while i don't think failure would occur only after 12 rounds of hot .45, it may be a concern several hunderd or thousand rounds down the road.

at what amps did you weld the barrel?

-k

[IridiumRed]

I would think that the tendency of the barrel to crack would be most highly dependent on the type of steel and/or casehardening

I've always heard really bad things about trying to weld 8620, like demilled M1 / M14 receivers. SOUNDS like a good idea, but i hear that its basically impossible to prevent cracks. Preheating the steel, using the right equipment, etc still isn't enough

BUT

there are a heck of a lot of steels out there that dont crack when welded!! Seriously people, think about your cars. Do you know the hundreds or thousands of welds that are used to create the frame and body and attach them together? Think those have cracks?

Anyone know what the steel type used in P14 stainless barrels is? its heat treating? "weldability" ?

Also, one thing I'll mention is that I wasn't trying to join two large pieces of steel together. I took one large piece (effectively) and simply built up the surface .010 - .020 approx (depending on where). That definitely limits the amount of heat put into the part, should also help lower the stress put on it

to answer another question, I'll double check on the amps I used...

Steve

PS. I'm really not pissed about any of the comments / opinions, this whole thing has definitely been a huge learning experience for me... I appreciate the conversation...

[stans]

Steve, you built your pistol in the old school method. It is very labor intensive and few people and even fewer gunsmiths will invest this amount of time into such a project. I think you did a good job. As for the fliers, it may very well be brain fade. It's hard shooting a pistol.

[IridiumRed]

Stans -

Thanks for the kind words, you hit the nail right on the head regarding what I was trying to do

Sometimes I'd rather do something the hard way, the old way, even if it takes a lot more time.... just to "earn" it :)




On the barrel cracking/blowing up thread - I'll just mention one thing - i regularly detail strip/clean/inspect this gun. I really dont think the barrel is going to crack, but I'll certainly be looking from now on

If the barrel DID crack, I doubt it would fail in one big catastrophic BANG. Most likely a crack would start small and slowly propagate, and would take a while to get big enough to actually cause a failure.

What I mentioned earlier about shooting some .45 super - if I only shot mil-spec hardball (230 @ 850?)from now on, avg pressure somewhere around.. 14-16K ? I would think the .45 super rounds (230 @ 1150), possibly 25K ? 28K? would have to act like "proof rounds"

I mean, if you took a gun, loaded a dozen rounds in it with 50% higher pressure than the normal ammo you'd shoot (with appropriate recoil spring and all that of course!!), and it didn't fail, I'd say it sounded strong enough to me??

If there was a sudden catastrophic failure coming, I'd think that 50% hotter ammo would cause it

Steve

[kotonk]

yeah, the picture of a cracked barrel in sweeney's book, if i remember correctly, showed that a chunk cracked off on the hood portion....it wasn't a picture of an exploded chamber or anything like...sorry, if i gave an end of the world picture of it.

-k

[riw]

I've got a friend with a Ransom rest, I need to try that one of these days, I'd really like to see what my gun would do with a "perfect" rest and match ammo.... I wonder if it could get down to around 1" at 25 yards.. thats really pushing it though I think..... but who knows. If it did 2.5 - 3" at 50 yards I'd be very happy, thats "basic" Les Baer range... :)

I've often wondered about this--does anyone have any real experience with ransom rests and autoloaders? I've heard that it's not a "really good" combination, because the slide and the barrel lock up, not the slide and the frame, while the ransom rest always repositions the frame in the same place, not the slide (?). If a gun with a really tight slide to frame fit, this might work well, but a "sloppier" gun might actually shoot better in human hands than in a ransom rest.

Any truth to this line of thinking? I've no idea, but I'm hesitent to buy one until I had a better idea of what it would really do.

:-)

Russ

[IridiumRed]

you could always check the sight alignment after every shot

if the gun was really sloppy, and between shots it looked like the sights were aligned differently, well yeah, you might have a valid point

but, if you can't discern any noticeable difference in sight alignment, would it be possible to shoot it better off of sandbags?

besides, if the frame/slide/barrel fit was the only detriment to the ransom rest, there are lots more errors a person can make firing off of sandbags.....

just thoughts on that -

steve