Some Newbie Bullseye Questions

[drewhill63]

I have been shooting rimfire bullseye for a few years and I am ready to buy a 1911 and move into the world of 2700 matches. I am leaning toward a Les Baer. A couple of dumb questions:

1) What type of ammo do bullseye shooters generally use? 185-200 grain wadcutter?

2) Should I buy a wadcutter pistol or a more generic pistol (e.g., Premier II)? Pros and cons?

3) If I install a slide-mount scope on a non-wadcutter pistol, will "full power" ammo damage the scope and/or mount?

4) What is "full power" ammo?

Thanks for putting up with dumb questions but we all have to start somewhere!

[Canuck-IL]

1) What type of ammo do bullseye shooters generally use? 185-200 grain wadcutter?
Most commonly, 185 and 200 LSWC. Some use 185 JHPs at the long line.

2) Should I buy a wadcutter pistol or a more generic pistol (e.g., Premier II)? Pros and cons?
There's not going to be a lot of difference in the quality of gun. The wad model will have a reduced power recoil spring - a $7 part. From most vendors, the wad gun should have an option for a scope mount, either frame or slide. Front strap checkering might be another difference...I'm not that familiar with the PII, other than they shoot well. Prices for similarly equipped guns of either model should be very close and with the 1.5" "guarantee," should have the same accuracy.

3) If I install a slide-mount scope on a non-wadcutter pistol, will "full power" ammo damage the scope and/or mount?
If you set it up as a wad gun, why would you shoot 'full-power' ammo? If you change recoil springs to handle it, then it won't damage the gun or any good red dot. The majority of shooters use UltraDots as they're lifetime guaranteed and fairly competitively priced. If it damages the mount, then it wasn't installed properly.

4) What is "full power" ammo?
In 45, usually refers to hardball ... std milspec was 820 - 850 fps with a 230gr jacketed RN.
/Bryan

[drewhill63]

Thanks, Canuck

So the only real difference between a "regular 1911 and a "wad gun" is the recoil spring?

[Canuck-IL]

I wouldn't classify the PII from Baer as a 'regular' gun. It's more tightly fitted than production line guns and I mentioned that with the extra fitting (or just good luck in the 'smith's shop) of the 1.5" option, you'd essentially have a wad gun. I know a couple of folks doing very well with either Springfield Operators or TRPs, both higher end guns. They're defintiely not a standard SA Loaded model.

A classic wad gun is just a very closely fitted 1911, often with an aftermarket barrel, usually with a high hold beavertail and often an undercut trigger guard and a checkered front strap. Depending on the shooter's preferences, you then add either long sight radius adjustable sights, usually with a Patridge front, or a red dot.

As the Baer's tend to be quite closely fitted anyway (they don't sell in the $650 - 900 range), the difference between a PII with the 1.5" and their official "wad" gun is probably just the recoil spring....perhaps the trigger job also - 3.5#s is legal min for a wad gun. No idea what a typical PII comes with but I'd bet 4 - 4.5 and crisp.

My own custom build wad gun was done by a smith that tests all his barrels before selecting which go into the wad vs hardball vs return to vendor pile. He told me at that time (2006) that he was using 3 - 4 of every 10 barrels he received. Mine shot a little over an inch in the tester and 1.5 in the finished gun - from a ransom rest - no way I can hold 1.5 at 50 yds :(
It happens to be from Baer, who gets his barrels from Kart.
/B

[headhog]

Before you make any decisions or choices of a 1911 for Bullseye shooting, you might want to join this forum and ask your questions: http://www.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/
The Bullseye-L forum has been around for a long time and the members are very dedicated to their sport.

[Canuck-IL]

Note that that forum is a list serve, not a threaded, interactive forum as this is.

The archives (at least since the huge server failure a few years ago) are here...
http://groups.google.com/group/Bullseye-L-Archive
/B

[X-Mark]

This site has lots of info:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

The barrel on the wad gun may be "throated" to feed SWCs
You could check with Baer on this.

The wadgun will have a 3.5lb trigger.

The slide mount rail with full loads? I'm not sure. I have read, "not a problem" and also read "don't do it"? The dot will be ok, but it may shear the mount screws? Has anybody out there tried this?

[Joni Lynn]

Rock River Arms has a new steel slide mount that also has sights. I was looking it over at the NRA convention and asked if it would hold up to hardball ammo and the reply was that it might not. I'd still like to try one of them on a 1911, most of my shooting isn't hardball anyway. I was thinking somewhat of a Limited Match with that rib on it instead of the usual sights.

[Canuck-IL]

The slide mount rail with full loads?
He asked about a wad gun (2700s) - by definition, not full loads. In fact, at the short line, many are below commonly recognized loading manual minimums.
/B

[drewhill63]

Thanks everyone for your replies. A couple of updates:

I asked Les Baer what the difference is between one of their wadcutter guns and a Premiere II (guessing that springs were different) and Brenda from Les Baer replied, "You are correct the spring weights are different and the lock up time is set up differently for the lighter loads." I think the trigger is a little different as well (3.5# crisp versus 4# crisp). She said nothing about throat.

I also had a nice chat with John from ProLoad about slide mounts versus frame mounts - suffice it to say that he is not a slide mount fan, though he has never used one. He seemed to be turned off by the whole concept, citing changes in slide weight and recoil performance as issues. I told him that my impression from reading this forum and others is that slide mount are pretty popular and people seem to like the affect on recoil.

The slide versus frame mount point may be moot if I want a pistol any time soon. John said that Les Baer is pretty far behind on orders and a slide mount would be a special order (months). He doesn't have any LB bullseye guns in stock but he has some with frame mounts on order and expects them in a few weeks. I still like the idea of a slide mount scope so now I need to figure out how to find one or just bite the bullet (pun intended) and special order one and wait.


Part of the confusion that I have caused here (and with the people at LB) is because I didn't understand that 2700 gun = wad gun. That was supposed to be one of my original questions but I didn't ask it artfully. You guys and John at ProLoad set me straight so now I know that in fact what I need to buy is a wad gun.

BTW, I am on the Bullseye-L list, and I will probably ask them some annoying questions too. :)

[Joni Lynn]

I got a wadgun with the frame mount from John a short time ago and it's been perfect. It's extremely accurate and having an optic on makes it easy to shoot well.

[X-Mark]

Gil Hebard Guns, Inc. 125 Public Square. Knoxville, IL 61448. (309) 289-2700
(no website)

They have a slide mount in stock.
However, about $250 more than John's price.

[40caljoe]

I just recently got into Bullseye shooting and am loving it! When I was first looking for a .45 I spoke with my mentor about which custom to buy. To my suprise he suggested a Springfield PI9132LP Loaded Target model. His words I cannot build a tighter gun than these. There are currently a couple of them on Guns America for $825

So far this thing is awsome, I am using the gun bone stock with the iron sights at this point but after this round of leagues I am having the trigger worked on and a Matchdot installed. The other members of the league are a bit nervous about me getting trigger work and optics. Let just say I have impressed them with the accuracy of this gun as it is let alone with any extras.

I have been invited to go to Perry with them next year as a team member, which is quite an honor for me and I am looking forward to the adventure.

My thoughts for what they may be worth, get a good gun practice, practice, practice did I mention practice? Read the AMU training manual a couple times!

If you can learn to shoot well and develop your skills with a decent gun just imagine how much better you will be with a high end gun. In short (I know too late) let your skills develop then get a gun that will maximize your ability.

Have fun!

:wc:

[govtmodel]

I also had a nice chat with John from ProLoad about slide mounts versus frame mounts - suffice it to say that he is not a slide mount fan, though he has never used one. He seemed to be turned off by the whole concept, citing changes in slide weight and recoil performance as issues. I told him that my impression from reading this forum and others is that slide mount are pretty popular and people seem to like the affect on recoil.

BTW, I am on the Bullseye-L list, and I will probably ask them some annoying questions too. :)

As a long-time Camp Perry and Bullseye shooter, I can say with confidence that, in the bullseye community, slide mounts are very popular. Brian Zins, 9 time National Champion, is a slide mount guy, and that's a pretty solid endorsement. :appld:

Bullseye-L is a great forum, too, but sometimes the signal to noise is a bit unfavorable :(

[Rem725]

A vote for slide mount here. You can get the sight mounted real low to the bore. At least I believe that is better than high, something to do with top heavy and arm position. Oh yes, Ultradot, Ultradot, Ultradot.

[X-Mark]

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=59077

This setup is great for one hand BE shooting.
However, only for light target loads.
If you want to shoot any full power with it, use a frame mount.
This is what Les suggested.

[1911-GATOR]

I think I read somewhere that Joni Lynn was waiting for delivery of a Baer "wadcutter" gun with the frame mount - did you get it? How is it working out? I'm assuming that "wadcutter" in .45 means semi-wadcutter target load not the full wadcutter (flat front bullet seated flush with the case mount) that I use in .38.

I've been looking at that Baer model for bullseye - along with other options including re-working an accurate Kimber (mine) that could use a trigger job and little else.

Thanks.

[Joni Lynn]

Yes I received a Les Baer wadgun with the frame mount. I stuck an original holosight on it. It's a great gun, the test target (ransom rest tested) measured just under 2" for a 50 yard group, LB states all wadguns will do 2.5" at 50 yards or better and this one is so accurate it's almost boring. By wadgun, they mean for the Federal 185 jacketed match load to be used. I use a 200 grain lead semi wadcutter and it works just fine. It came with a 13 pound recoil spring but I installed a 16 since the 13 seemed a bit light for my light 200 lswc load. It's amazing how much better I shoot with optics than with iron sights.
The only pic I have of it right now is with the other two.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Joni_Lynn/JoniLynnandtheThreeBaers.jpg

[1911-GATOR]

Thanks for the reply - as always, great information and nice looking pistols!!! It is amazing how large that red dot is - kinda like cell phones about 10 years ago.

[Joni Lynn]

Yes it's big and ugly but it has a cool reticle. Dot inside a circle and the circle has a mark at 12, 3, 6 & 9 o'clock. It helps me to hold the gun straight and not cant it over.

[1911-GATOR]

Okay - a few more questions for Joni Lynn, if I may. Have you experienced any jams or other issues because of the frame mount? I am getting ready to pull the trigger on this purchase (no pun intended) and already have my transfer dealer set to receive. I'm going to check with the good folks at Gil Hebard on Monday to see what they have in stock (anyone else I should contact?) and can go either frame or slide mount.

Also, what powder charge and type do you use for your 200 LSWC load? I happen to like that bullet weight very much and have been experimenting with various charges of WW231.

Thanks again.

[Joni Lynn]

I haven't had any malfunctions of any kind yet and hope not to.
I changed to the 16 pound spring, the ejected cases were going a bit further than I thought they should with the 13 pound spring. Now it tosses cases about where most of my guns do.
I use 5.0 to 5.1 of WW231 or HP38. It's accuratel and the gun functions quite well. This load will function all of my 1911's with no problems.

[1911-GATOR]

A person named John is mentioned as a source for Baer pistols in this thread - who is he and where is his business located?

[Joni Lynn]

John is Proload in Idaho
http://www.proload.com/default.aspx
Give him a call, he may have something you can't live without in stock.