New Agent Aiming Help??

[Murphjup]

Well I have finally been able to go to the range with my "New Agent"...

I'm trying to get the hang of the trench sites, but at first I was consistently aiming downward... When I rotated my point off aim upward, it still feels awkward....

Anyone that can offer any aiming advice with the trench sites? I know I will do better over time by adjusting, but I just wanted to see what you all do when aiming the Agent....

Thank you in advance.

:)

[clughog]

Just keep practicing! I know I was trying too hard to "aim" my New Agent, like it was a target gun or something. When I started just using a "point and shoot" method, both eyes open, I finally got the hang of it! :D

[Hunter]

I started with the trench level at the 6'oclock position of the target and dialed it in from there.
It will take a few magazines to get the hang of it but once you get it the trench does work.

[Rio Vista Slim]

My friends Creighton and Hunter are both correct in their responses.
The New Agent is a specialized weapon, and that specialty isn't target shooting! As Hunter points out, the New Agent is quite capable of relatively accurate shots, but it's main purpose is "up close and personal".

Practice (at short range) until you see where the bullets are consistently hitting the target when the pistol is held in your normal firing position. Then adjust the orientation of the gun to hit where you wish the shots to impact the target. While this might sound like a lot of expended ammunition, you'll get the hang of it quicker than you think.

When you do achieve the desired hits, practice with the pistol until your goal of consistency is attained.

[Ted Smith]

As Slim said...

In all practicality, I don't think an Agent was meant to be an "aimed" pistol. It was designed for close combat defense. I'd practice point shooting at ranges up to 20 feet (more realistically 10 feet). If you can put 3 out of four fast shots on a standard paper plate, you're in good shape. Good luck.

[cwo4uscgret]

When I get to the range to shoot mine I will use the targeting guide that came with the pistol. It shows the top of the target centered with the trench. I have several other 'sightless" pistols; a Seecamp LWS .32 and an AMT .380 Back-up. With practice consistent center body mass shots to 15 yards are possible. On Seecamp's discussion board I read a suggestion (from Seecamp) about turning the gun sideways (45 degree) and using the notch between the frame and slide for sighting purposes.

Knowing what your gun (any gun) is capable of is the key to gun control - my definition that is - Gun Control - the ability to hit what you are aiming at!

[jjShnabadu]

Just got back from another trip to the range with my New Agent. Most of my practice has been from 7 to 10 yards, but this was an outdoor range with a minimum of 15 yards.

It took a couple of magazines, but I found that at 15 yards, it shot almost point of aim if I did two things:

1.) Lined up the bottom of the trench (not the top of the notches).

2.) Kept a tight grip.

At shorter distances, I've been in the habit of aiming at the intended point of impact by aligning the notches and then raising the front just a smidge, so that the notch at the rear of the ejection port appears to just touch the front of the ejection port.

Then I noticed that the front of the trench is considerably deeper than the rear. This seems to indicate to me that one shouldn't attempt to match the top of the notches. Lining up the tops would cause it to shoot low. Instead, I lined up the bottom of the trench. This seemed to really do the trick at 15 yards.

I'm still experimenting, but I think I'm getting closer to producing accurate, repeatable results.

Sorry for the long post, but I have to add this: I LOVE my New Agent. I read all 37 pages of the discussion thread that followed Hunter's review (thanks Hunter!) and was so impressed, that I took the plunge and bought it as my first 1911 pistol. Love it. I've got the 1911 bug, and there's no going back...

Cheers,

-- JJ

[Agent 45]

I'll say # 2 is probably going to keep your shots from drifting down and to the left. Snap caps or dry firing will really help you see if your pulling the gun as you pull the trigger and anticipating the recoil. I noticed that with the NA if you pay particular attention to your grip, and make sure to keep it nice and firm, you'll hit much closer to your POA. A few extra $$'s and you could set the NA up with some CT grips......
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj15/bonjo05/Gun%20Pics/NewAgentwithCTGrips008.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj15/bonjo05/Gun%20Pics/NewAgentwithCTGrips004.jpg

[Hill]

Then I noticed that the front of the trench is considerably deeper than the rear. This seems to indicate to me that one shouldn't attempt to match the top of the notches. Lining up the tops would cause it to shoot low. Instead, I lined up the bottom of the trench. This seemed to really do the trick at 15 yards.

-- JJ

Yep. .02550" deep at the rear, .06550" at the front of notch. A very different sort of set of sights, or sight.

Did I see someone say something about an aiming guide?? What, in the manual included with the pistol?
Who reads THOSE??? :lm:

[cwo4uscgret]

Hey Hill - I read them...religously, before even taking the first shot!

:gad:

I'll test the theory this week when I take my new New Agent to the range...

[azreloader]

I practice with mine by starting with a good grip, at the Ready Low position, take 1 step fprward, fire two quick shots, and step back. I do it by alternating which leg I step forward with and I start with the target at 10' and move back 1 foot at a time until I can put holes in the black at 15'.

This is the kind of gun that, if it comes into play, will be at very short range so don't try to get good results at 25 yds.

Trained responsive shooting will have you hitting center mass in no time and give you the confidence you need to trust it to a life threatening situation.

[cwo4uscgret]

AZ - sounds like the kind of shooting I would intend to do with it; it is obvious (from the first time I saw it) a defensive weapon. I already have some micro 1911s - ParaOrd's Warthawg .45, P10-40, and the C6.45LDA. Contrary to what some people claim the C6.45 is a single action - it requires the hammer to be recock after every pull of the trigger.

The Warthawg and the C6.45 are both acurate to 25 yards; not 1"-2" bullseye accurate but center body mass accurate - what they are supposed to be. Shooting the same Customs Qual Course that I shoot at work quarterly for qualification with a maximum possible score of 150 I shot a 149 and a 150 with them...that's what I will be shooting for with the NA; somewhere in the 145-150 out of 150 range...

[Shaggy]

Yep. .02550" deep at the rear, .06550" at the front of notch. A very different sort of set of sights, or sight.

Did I see someone say something about an aiming guide?? What, in the manual included with the pistol?
Who reads THOSE??? :lm:


Ok - since this is my first post here, I at least should introduce myself. My name is Drew - or shaggy if you prefer, I am by far from an expert. I can buy what I see and like - shoot them and clean them. That is my expertise.

I have two points in your post I would like to ask about / comment. The first - a comment - is about reading the manual. I bought one of these new agents a couple of weeks ago and I also have issues with getting used to the sights.

You joked about reading the manual - Well I did - there is no mention to these sights in the little book that came with it. I guess colt did not update it with info other than the defender (I also have one of them http://forum.m1911.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=540064#
Big Grin ) There is no information about the sight alignment outside the normal post sights as on a defender. But in the same sense, I found this post hysterical as in I did not read the manual until after I shot it the first time, and had to pull out my defender to find out if it was me or the sights... (And yes it was the sights)

Now for my question - It is about the sight alignment (maybe this should be directed to all and not just you) Is what you are saying about the alignment of these sights is that the bottom of the front U should match with A) Top points of the u or the bottom trough of the u? (I have no better way to describe this but with the letter u since that is what it looks like to me! )

[cwo4uscgret]

to the owner's manual and not actually in the manual; but here is a photo of the sheet of paper that was in the case when I bought the gun:

http://iwantthatknife.com/Gallery/albums/Bark-River-Knives/colt_new_agent.jpg

[Shaggy]

Thank you for that. I may have to look at all the papers someday.... :)

So the bottom of front U lines up with the bottom of back u. i guess I kinda learned that by doing it but I did not think about it at the time. I am not too much worried as to where they hit with a new gun, rather than the grouping. I can adjust to the group through trial and error, but non grouped shots irk me..... practice practice practice...

[Hill]

Right, I have that "sighting guide".........I went and found it after cwo's post. BUT I'm not having any success trying to do it that way -unless I'm seing it wrong it counsels sighting down the trough to intended POI and when I do that shot on target is consistently low - more than 6" low at 15'.

When I raise the muzzle so as to see the front of the ejection port per Landman's advise in another thread I target much better although I think I'm also pulling to the right by about 4" at the range mentioned. I'm lefthanded and can resolve the pull/push to the side which I attribute to short barrel, light pistol, and sketchy training over the last few years.

FWIW, the pistol has now had 70 rounds through without a single hitch or failure and put several shots to one ragged hole three times. I'm enjoying it a great deal.

[Murphjup]

Thanks guys, I have been busy and havent been able to look at this thread....

I'm going to the range tommorrow and will try some of these ideas...

Yes I have seen that insert into the paperwork that came witht the pistol...

I also think after reading all these post, it's a matter of personal perception...

and Practice, practice, practice...

I'll let you know how I do after my range trip..

:)

[michael t]

I just look at the end of the gutter may be last inch and it hits right. Use whole gutter like that paper . Would be good for shooting really short people.

[Murphjup]

Well I am doing better... but for me I still need to see some of the ejector port... for the gun to be level... I am stilling pulling off to the right...

I am still having to get used to single action, I have been mostly shooting double action, which requires more of a pull... So more range work...

I'm still not head over heals with my performance yet...

:confused:

[Hill]

I just look at the end of the gutter may be last inch and it hits right. Use whole gutter like that paper . Would be good for shooting really short people.

:lm: That's it!! It's a specialized pistol intended for specific markets - those in which people encounter short bad guys..mostly.

Or..........it's meant to be used as a non lethal but incapacitating weapon, one that hits kneecaps regularly even while a shooter shoots to kill.
It's like a conscience!


I'm hoping to be able to shoot mine some more today, honeydos allowing :rolleyes:

[Hill]

OK, i've got it now and Rio vista Slim (RVS) and those who say don't try to "aim" in the traditional sense were giving good advise. AZ probably was too, but I kept tripping over my feet if I tried his two step. I was raised wrong, I guess, or ain't got rythme. :)

I started just sort of looking at where I wanted rounds over the front notch and started plopping rounds into about an 8" circle one after another. I think it'll get more natural because I was already getting the feeling that if I looked there a hole would appear there.

Pretty neat way of doing it. Just get your head away from all thought of making groups and you'll start making groups.

It's a zen thing.

[groo01]

Groo here
If you check the old Guttersnipe sight posts,
I think that you will see that this kind of sight was meant to be used
much differently than what we are use to.
The idea was that the bullet would hit in the center of the
opening of the sight allowing the shooter to see the target.
Try this--- Do not align anything-- just look at the target through the
trench and shoot --- Fast

[azreloader]

If nothing else works, try this:

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/P1010320a.jpg

[cwo4uscgret]

Snuck out to the range this afternoon to shoot some as of yet fired guns:



Colt Cobra
Colt Python
Colt New Agent
S&W Model 41
GSG-5 (.22lr MP5 clone)
Spanish FR-8 Mauser (.308)
Century Galil .223

I was worried about the quality of the Galil (Century you know) but one magazine, loaded with 30 rounds of surplus 5.56 - that extra weight of the Galil versus the AK really dampened the recoil quite a bit. A fun gun to shoot...

With the exception of 2 rounds of .22 that didn't fire (after 2 solid firing pin strikes) in the 41 - all guns shot straight and true. I'm going to call it bad ammo.

The most gratifying gun was the New Agent. Sights? Don't need no stinking sights; here's my target; 15 rounds from 7 yards. The gun shot a little low to point of aim; I was trying for dead center of the bulleye. Someone (a range officer from work) commented on the group - trying to be cute. The Old Range Officer (in his late 70s) told him - "So which round wouldn't you want to be hit by?"

http://iwantthatknife.com/Gallery/albums/BarkRiverGrindin/New_Agent_Target.sized.jpg

Ammo used was Walmart Winchester Whitebox, 230 gr ball - $30 for 100 rounds. I really think I am going to like this gun

[azreloader]

Excellent results. A little low is fine. If you do double taps,you'll either put 1 in the gut & 1 in the chest, or 1 in the chest and 1 in the head.

I wouldn't want to stand in front of it!

I know what you mean about Century. Their build quality can be hit or miss. Sounds like you got a good one.

[Hill]

That's great shooting, cwo, and I wouldn't even think about it tending downward because already it's accuracy that is better than anyone has good reason to expect from a 3" pistol with no sights!

I'm having more fun shooting the New agent than I've had in years shooting a particular pistol.

[Bladerunner321]

Hey all,
Just a quick thanks for all of this witty repartee. I was beginning to think that I was just retarded when it came to my new agent because I kind of gave up on aiming some time ago. But I've always wanted a gun to "make my own" and my Agent is going to be the one. I'm in the process now of pricing out a custom slide with low profile sights and some other goodies that I'd like to try with my Colt. I was planning on doing this to my MilSpec but I really like my agent. It absolutely eats anything I feed it, spits it out clean and asks for more. Can't ask for much more than that. It's really great to find a post site of other Agent owners.

[MoneyTree]

Hey all,
Just a quick thanks for all of this witty repartee. I was beginning to think that I was just retarded when it came to my new agent because I kind of gave up on aiming some time ago. But I've always wanted a gun to "make my own" and my Agent is going to be the one. I'm in the process now of pricing out a custom slide with low profile sights and some other goodies that I'd like to try with my Colt. I was planning on doing this to my MilSpec but I really like my agent. It absolutely eats anything I feed it, spits it out clean and asks for more. Can't ask for much more than that. It's really great to find a post site of other Agent owners.You've definantly found the right site and welcome to the forum Bladerunner321 .
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4615/welcome6ld.gif

[Hill]

Hey all,
Just a quick thanks for all of this witty repartee. I was beginning to think that I was just retarded when it came to my new agent because I kind of gave up on aiming some time ago. But I've always wanted a gun to "make my own" and my Agent is going to be the one. I'm in the process now of pricing out a custom slide with low profile sights and some other goodies that I'd like to try with my Colt. I was planning on doing this to my MilSpec but I really like my agent. It absolutely eats anything I feed it, spits it out clean and asks for more. Can't ask for much more than that. It's really great to find a post site of other Agent owners.


It's a natural for a CCO conversion using a Commander length slide and barrel. and I'll admit that the thought to do that came during my initial shooting of the NA.

I wouldn't do it now, however, as I think that the New Agent has something that a CCO doesn't have as much of, and that's speed. It comes from a holster quick because of the short length (reholsters quick and easy too), and I'm getting it on target for it's first shot faster than any other pistol I have. These things were made to be carry Colts and I'm really coming to see what an excellent job Colt did with it. On top of that they were nice enough to provide magazines that hold 7 rounds and work right out of the box.

My only caveat at this point is whether the NA is secure in my "Beltser".
I've taken to using a Belster instead of a holster for 1911's. It works for me pretty good with a Commander, my CCO, or a GM (though I haven't carried a full size in it off my property). The NA SEEMS OK in it but the abreviated slide makes me a little nervous about it falling out.

[cwo4uscgret]

I'd never seen a "Beltster" before; I'd be concerned with the short slide as well...I carry it in an IWB Galco Walkabout or on my hip with a

Just back from the range with the New Agent and an empty 100 round 230 grain ball Winchester White Box .45 acp. I fired 93 rounds of ball and 7 rounds of 230 grain jacketed hollow points (Remington sub-sonic).

My trip to the range was for reliabilty testing; not a single hiccup at all. I am really pleased with this Colt.

[cwo4uscgret]

Here's the target; 100 rounds some at 7 yards, some at 15 yards, most at 10 yards.

http://iwantthatknife.com/Gallery/albums/Bark-River-Knives/new_agent_target_2.jpg

[myusername]

I found that as long as I hold it a little higher than I think I should it is great. If I get sloppy and let it drop a little I hit low but still close enough to do some good.

I was really surprised how much I like the trench sight. I've found that for close distances I shoot the new agent and my keltec better than my guns with sights. I think it is because I pay more attention to my target with them.

[Bladerunner321]

When I'm at the range, I can take my time and do pretty well with the trench but the problem that I have is locating the trench as quickly as I think would be necessary in close quarters combat. I have considered painting the trench yellow which I think might really solve the problem but first, I want to buy some 3/16" pinstriping tape at the local speed shop and try that first. That way, if it doesn't work for me, removal is very simple. That's why I'v been considering a new custom made slide with a clean exterior except for a few words of my own. I would also have dovetailed slide in sights installed, something really low profile.
Next, I'd like to do the slide and the frame in a highly polished hard chrome finish. Finally, the remaining add-ons would be done in black powdercoat, like the trigger, hammer, slide stop, safety. Finally, I'd like to do something crazy with the grip safety, both in color and style. And since it's in the shop, maybe I'll have the barrel threaded to fit a suppressor. THAT...would be FUN!!! I just love this gun and want to make it as special to others as it already is to me. I'm wide open for criticisms or thoughts guys. And thanks for the welcome. Believe it or not, it is always appreciated.

[MoneyTree]

cwo4uscgret . I was just looking at both your target posts . You've done some great shooting there .

[Murphjup]

Well I finally at my thrid trip to the range I believe I am more comfortable aiming and pointing my New Agent....

I have changed my stance to an Isosceles, along with aiming with both eyes open... for some reason these have just helped me aim better.... I also have a better sight picture in my mind as to what the slide/trench sight looks like when it is on target...

I had about 4-6 inch groups at 15-20 feet... so I am getting better...

Thank you everyone for all your input, I will keep practicing and report back...

:)

[cwo4uscgret]

Thanks MoneyTree - I am a trained professional don't you know! No, really I am. I'm a retired Coast Guard Chief Warrant Officer and have been a Customs Officer for the last 4-1/2 years.

[chancellor]

I picked up the New Agent last Friday in Adventure Outdoors in GA and it is a one sweet gun. I took it to the range today and it shoots nicely. Not as convenient as HK USP Tactical, but it's half the size. This is my first 1911 and I really like it for CCW.

[NEW_AGENT]

What works for me is to shoot at a human like target and place head sitting in gutter and it groups on chest (center of mass). I only usually shoot at 10 yards or less...

[cwo4uscgret]

My agency requires us to re-qualify with our duty guns quarterly. We are also (well supposed to) supposed to qualify with any pistol we want to carry off-duty. We shoot a 30 round course, starting with a 6 and 2 12 round magazines at the 3-1/2 yard line with 6 rounds strong, reload with 12 round magazine and shoot 6 rounds support hand (only). Next we move to the 7 yard line for 2 rounds center body mass times 3, reload with 12 round magzine, shoot 2 to the chest, 1 to the head times 2 and move to the 15 yard line. At the 15 it is 2 shots support side barricade, 2 shots strong side barricade, and 2 rounds strong side, barricade, kneeling. Max score is 150. I carry an H&K USP 2000 in .40 S&W for duty.

I shot a 148 and 147 with the H&K but I have to tell you - I brought the New Agent to shoot for qualification and carry authorization (to make it "legal" I've been carrying it for a month now). I shot a 147/150 with it; dropping two shots at the 15 yard line. It shot to point of aim; I was concerned about the 2 head shots being low but I aimed (gun was level) dead center.

The NA handled flawlessly. At 3-1/2 and 7 yards most rounds were in a ragged hole. I let 3 range officers fire it too - they were impressed with its handling and accuracy as we; especially when they ask where the sights are!