Can you help me identify this pistol?

[dleebrandt]

I recently bought a Colt ACP (presumably an M1911A1), but when I checked the serial it comes up as having been made in 1918, which makes no sense, because it doesn't look 20 or 30 years old. I got the same result on two different sites. The serial is: No 300875. There are NO letters - no C's, Z's, N's - just numbers. I took the weapon apart today to clean it and saw the same number elsewhere - on the barrel perhaps. I have pix, but apparently I'm not authorized to post them. If you e-mail me, I can send them to you. I sure would appreciate a common sense check.

Thanx in advance,

Lee

[Frank]

To find out how to post pictures, see http://forum.m1911.org/faq.php?faq=a_few_words#faq_postingpictures .

DVC

[RickB]

It actually says "No . . . "? That doesn't sound like an OACP serial number. The frame has the Colt address on the right side, above the grip panel?

[dleebrandt]

Here are the pictures. The serial stamped on the right side says No 300875. The o is smaller than the N and has a line beneath it (it's hard to see in the pic). The left side is stamped Government Property.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll221/dleebrandt/IMGP3087.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll221/dleebrandt/IMGP3086.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll221/dleebrandt/IMGP3088.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

That's a WW1 vintage M1911 -- there are no "scallop" cuts behind the trigger, and the grip safety is the shorter, original M1911 style. It also still has the lanyard loop on the mainspring housing. Is the mainspring housing smooth, serrated, or checkered? Should be smooth.

The serial number checks out for 1918, and the "No" prefix would be correct for that vintage. The "AA" probably indicates a rebuild at Augusta Arsenal, but it appears that the pistol has been refinsihed much more recsntly. That two-tone finish wasn't a military rebuild standard.

It's a nice pistol. Unfortunately, despite being in nice condition, the refinish pretty much wipes out any real monetary value.

[dleebrandt]

Yes, I pulled out the mainspring, and the housing is smooth. I only paid $800 for it, so even with monetary depreciation for lacking its original bluing, it's still a pretty good deal, I think. I've only had it a day, so I don't know how it shoots yet. It's very tight, though, not like the junk we had in the Army 15 years ago: things shook like baby rattles. Entertain 3 more questions for me:

1) How much do you thing it is worth?

2) What grips should it have? Right now they are plastic. I presume they should be wood.

3) Is it worth having it reblued? Rebluing will cost $150 - would it increase the value more than that?

Thanx in advance,

LB

[Hawkmoon]

The plastic grips are WW2 vintage and may date to the arsenal rebuild. The original grips for a WW1 M1911 would have been double diamond checkered Walnut.

I'd recommend waiting for the experts to weigh in on value. IMHO the price you paid is probably the most it's ever going to be worth. Refinished is refinished. Despite that, if it were mine I would probably have it blued to make it closer to the original appearance, even though I doubt I'd ever be able to recoup the cost. I just think it should be put back to the way it originally looked.

You should also read some of the discussions on here about whether or not to shoot an older military pistol. It appears you bought this pistol as a shooter, but putting a lot of rounds through a 1918 vintage pistol is perhaps not the wisest thing to do.

[dleebrandt]

Thanx for the fast response: I see why you were Moderator of the Year ;^)

Yes, I had intended to use it, just as the previous owner has been doing for years. It's in very good condition, as you can see from the pix. As a WWII reenactor, I have several old weapons, all of which I use regularly. To date I have a 1937 K98, a 1914 Luger and a 1942 M1 Garand. All work perfectly. The local gunsmith/FFL gave all of them a clean bill of health when they arrived.

Grips: there are two set of walnut grips on eBay as we speak, so that's a quick fix.

One more question and I will leave you alone:

Bluing: I tend to agree with you. Would you happen to know what kind of finish it originally had? Was it blue, black or gunmetal gray? Was it matt or shiny? Is there a particular hot blue service you recommend?

TIA,

LB

[dleebrandt]

As an addendum, I found this link: http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911page.htm. There are several 1918's shown, and the finish seems to range from gunmetal gray to black. Black seems more prevalent, and it's definately on he glossy side, not matt.

I guess the only question I have now is whether you'd recommend a particular hot blue service?

LB

[John]

I am not sure if the slide is original or not, the slide stop is not, that's for sure. As for refinishing, there are other, more experienced members who can chime in on this subject.

[Hill]

The slidestop has got to go.

Considering the rearsenalized condion I think I'd just have the slide parkerized along with the hammer, mag release, and a decent slidestop and call it good as an early WW2 rebuild done on many WW1 pistols to provide for the later need.

The previous parkerizing has eroded the crisp lines and sharp lettering of an original WW1 issue and that would detract from the appearance of the pistol if it were reblued unless carefully restored by an expert.

[Jim Watson]

Guns of that period had kind of a brush finish semi-gloss blue. Later in the year they were finished up duller leading to the "Black Army" guns.

A typical $150 hot blue will not look right.
I would go with Hart and have it nicely Parkerized with a standard slide stop to look like the Augusta Arsenal rework that it really was the last time the Army had it.
You could spend several hundred bucks with a skilled restorer who could make it a pretty good fake of its original appearance.

[Hawkmoon]

Yes, I had intended to use it, just as the previous owner has been doing for years. It's in very good condition, as you can see from the pix. As a WWII reenactor, I have several old weapons, all of which I use regularly. To date I have a 1937 K98, a 1914 Luger and a 1942 M1 Garand. All work perfectly. The local gunsmith/FFL gave all of them a clean bill of health when they arrived.
An M1911 is not a K98 Mauser (arguably one of the strongest bolt-action rifles ever) or an M1 Garand. It's a semi-automatic pistol. And the one you are asking about is nearly a century old. Please read this thread http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=49725 and especially post number 13 by Scott Gahimer. The same thought was also expressed by the curator of the Army ordnance museum at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. You might shoot it for several thousand rounds with no problems. Or, the first shot you put through it might crack the slide in half. It's a gamble. In this case, the collectors' value is mostly gone so having to replace the slide wouldn't be the end of the world, but IMHO it still doesn't make sense to risk it. However, it's your pistol and your risk, so you must do what you think is best.

Bluing: I tend to agree with you. Would you happen to know what kind of finish it originally had? Was it blue, black or gunmetal gray? Was it matt or shiny? Is there a particular hot blue service you recommend?
That serial number is getting into the range where the finish was a coarsely polished, fire blued finish that has come to be called "black army" because it looks more black than blue. This is the finish, in fact, that Colt's is replicating on the current WW1 reproductions they are offering. I do not know who might be good to try to duplicate it.

[dleebrandt]

Thanx all, I got a lot of really good input.

:^) LB

[1saxman]

If the slide were a WWII replacement there would be no 'slide cracking' from firing. Can anyone tell if it is? I would not change the grips - they were put on it during the rebuild and would be correct for your WWII reenactments. I agree to get just the slide Parkerized. I can't tell what finish it is now. Another posibility, if it is a WWII slide, would be to find a period slide to match the frame, but then you would be going back to the 'soft' slide.

[OD*]

On an Augusta Arsenal rework, you wouldn't want the same finish the pistol left the factory with in 1918, you would want it parkerized if you want the pistol to look authentic. You don't need to replace the stocks or the slide, it very possible it's all correct for a rework (not the slide stop though, like Hill said, that has gotta go ;) ).

[dleebrandt]

I can't account for the difference in color of the parkerization between the slide and receiver...one would think they'd be the same material at the time, so they should have the same color. I put about 50 rounds through it today. Worked perfectly with the original mag, but the two new military gov't issue mags I used had a tendencey to jam. As regards whether the slide was rebuilt or replaced in the 40's, I'm not qualified to say. I took some pix when I cleaned it today. Perhaps one of you might notice some tell-tale clues to the mystery. To my eyes (but I'm a Chemical Engineer, not a Mech-E or Structural-E), it seems in remarkably good condition for something it's age. When I first saw it, I figured it was 20 years old - Viet Nam era at best. It blew my mind to learn that it was in fact 91.

Pix of the receiver and slide can be found here for those interested:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll221/dleebrandt/1918M1911.jpg

:^) LB

[dleebrandt]

PS: why is it no one has ever mentioned he one part of the gun I consider to be the weak link: the barrel? One would think that a couple thousand 185 or 200 grain rounds going off in it would create stress fractures there long before fatigue critical areas on the slide or receiver would be affected.

:^) L

[OD*]

The slide has been replaced at some point, maybe during the rework.

[Hawkmoon]

PS: why is it no one has ever mentioned he one part of the gun I consider to be the weak link: the barrel? One would think that a couple thousand 185 or 200 grain rounds going off in it would create stress fractures there long before fatigue critical areas on the slide or receiver would be affected.
The barrels were not differentially heat treated. The issue with slides, especially WW1 vintage and between the wars, is that the front of the slide was heat treated to be harder than the balance. That sets up a stress line along which fractures tend to occur. The area diectly around the slide stop notch was also locally heat treated. In certain photos it's VERY evident -- the heat treated areas take bluing better and are clearly darker in some photos.

[mauro]

Please,tell Me Why In The Land Of The 1911 Us Armed Forces Have A Beretta As Theyr Sidearm ??

[John]

They love to try foreign things. :p :D :)

[jwenum]

It's all politics-to keep OTHER people happy.I'm sure most of our guys would rather have Browning's finest in their hands.

[dleebrandt]

Please,tell Me Why In The Land Of The 1911 Us Armed Forces Have A Beretta As Theyr Sidearm ??

Four letters: NATO. I spend two of the past 4 years in Iraq, and I can tell you the Army is reconsidering going back to the .45 ACP or 10mm. More than one bad guy has been shot with a 9mm and managed to run away.

LB

[mauro]

Personally I Shoot 45,but For Self Defence 10 Mm Is The Best Choice,i Am In The Armed Forces And If I Could Would Put Every Single Beretta In The Rubbish Container..if You Buy One,is Wasted Money...

[Scott Gahimer]

The slide has been replaced with a WWII slide. Based on the rampant colt, I'd say it's late enough (1944 or 1945) to have a hardened slide stop notch. The slide should be as good as you can get for a military shooter.