General questions about caliber 'potency'

[Coffee]

I've been researching handguns in different caliber sizes and at the risk of stating the obvious, some seem more potent than others. I'd really like some feedback.

As far as I can tell, in extremely gross terms because it varies so much with ammo, this is what I've come with with regards to groupings of ammo:

* 9mm, .40 SW, 45ACP, 38 special
* .45 LC, .357 mag (may also shoot .38 special)
* .44 mag (may also shoot 44 special)
* .454 Casull (may also shoot .45LC)
* .500 S&W, .460 S&W (may also shoot .454 Casull, .45 LC)


In the roughest of terms - does that sound right? Am I missing anything?

Only looked at what was of interest to me so I'm sure the list is not comprehensive. Keep in mind I'm just trying to gt a sanity check and it looks like there are a wide variety of choices for ammo of each caliber.

What I mean is chambered with what I can tell is middle of the road ammo it might be possible
X = .45ACP
.45LC or .357 mag = 1.5X
.44mag = 2.5X
.454 Casull = 5X
.460SW or .500 SW = 8X

I *think* this the right section of the site to post this.
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[dogdollar]

If you're looking purely at ballistics you are missing the point, in terms of lethal potential. Look again at penetration....probably into ballistic gelatin which is the excepted standard for human brisket...and expansion.
For effectiveness against a human adversary, you want a bullet/load/caliber that will have optimum lethal effect on the "thickness" of a human center of mass. This means having the velocity, mass, and power to perform (i.e. expand) and thus create the most lethal wound channel in a human.
Bigger isn't better. As much as we like to picture taking out our worst nightmare with a .44 mag, that round is likely to just pass through and actually do LESS damage than, say, a 125gr .357 hollowpoint.
DD

[kcshooter]

Yeah, I don't think that's really an accurate comparative way to look at it. I would never consider a 44 mag or 454 casull as a viable SD round.


Dirty Harry may disagree...

[twin oaks]

+1 Dog

However, in categorizing the rounds you've done okay Coffee. There's also a question of target range. A .45ACP is probably more potent than a .357 at point blank range, b/c like DD said, there's a risk of over penetration. Now, extend that range to 200 yards. While hits are possible at that range with all the listed calibers, only the really big ones will carry enough energy that far to be 'potent'. The .460, and to some extent, the .500 are long range capable rounds, and would obviously be a better choice.
Next, what type of target do you want potency against- revisit DD's post for human analog. If you're looking for a bear gun, well the answer is easy: The biggest bore with the most ammo you can shoot quickly...preferably full auto, belt fed. (sorry, Tremors)

P.S. look up the .480 Ruger

[Coffee]

Good points. I was asking in regards to bear/boar SD handguns when it is not practical to have a long gun. Sorry.

Was my summary correct?

Edit - thank you twin oaks, anyone else think my summary is kinda sorta ok? Range - 100' and closer?

.

[dogmush]

I was asking in regards to bear/boar SD handguns when it is not practical to have a long gun.


Bear/boar, you want a lot of penetration in a big bullet. Your list seems pretty good, but oversimplified beacuse you're not taking into account bullet design.

Also what kind of Bear/Boar are we talking about here? CA (where you're at) or are you traveling? For under about 400 lbs or so, anything in the .44 mag and up will probably work, although 100 yds is a pretty far away for SD. Bigger, or Alaska grizz's, find a way to bring a long gun.

[elijdub]

With regards to your summary, i don't think you can look at ballisitics in terms of multiplications of power. There are many other variables at play. I would really suggest getting your hands on a ballisitics chart (they have them at my local library) and studying what each individual round is capable of... For examply, there is really no comparison (ballitically) between the 45LC and the .357mag. The 125gr JHP .357mag is moving at 1450fps at the muzzle, while the fastest 45LC i can find is the 225gr. SWC going 960fps at the muzzle. Two entirely different animals...

This is the first ballistics table i found while "googling". Hope this helps:http://www.sportsmansguide.com/resource/remington_charts/pr_ballistics.pdf

[tonka]

If you want an idea of how a properly set-up .45 Colt can perform, Google "Ross Seyfried" and read some of his articles.

[Coffee]

...in categorizing the rounds you've done okay Coffee...

P.S. look up the .480 Ruger
Thanks! Appreciate the feedback.

I've looked at the .480 Ruger - nice.


Bear/boar, you want a lot of penetration in a big bullet. Your list seems pretty good, but oversimplified because you're not taking into account bullet design.

Also what kind of Bear/Boar are we talking about here? CA (where you're at) or are you traveling? For under about 400 lbs or so, anything in the .44 mag and up will probably work, although 100 yds is a pretty far away for SD. Bigger, or Alaska grizz's, find a way to bring a long gun.
Yes the list is greatly over simplified, but have to start somewhere. I've got no plans on going to Alaska, 400lbs ish bears are the ones I'm asking about... and the 200lbs ish boar. I'm sure there are larger one around too.


With regards to your summary, i don't think you can look at ballisitics in terms of multiplications of power. There are many other variables at play. I would really suggest getting your hands on a ballisitics chart (they have them at my local library) and studying what each individual round is capable of... For examply, there is really no comparison (ballitically) between the 45LC and the .357mag. The 125gr JHP .357mag is moving at 1450fps at the muzzle, while the fastest 45LC i can find is the 225gr. SWC going 960fps at the muzzle. Two entirely different animals...

This is the first ballistics table i found while "googling". Hope this helps:http://www.sportsmansguide.com/resource/remington_charts/pr_ballistics.pdf

It certainly seems the calibers overlap as far as how well they would work for a particular situation depending on ammunition used. I've been using this link for ballistics information, it's from an outfit in Alaska I believe.
http://www.thehuntingshack.com/catalog/retail/retail.pdf

I've looked at the link you gave - good stuff, and thank you for that. It *think* the 2 ballistics tables sorta 'ballpark' match in the roughest of terms. It seems a .44 Magnum or anything larger would be quite sufficient for my needs.

If you want an idea of how a properly set-up .45 Colt can perform, Google "Ross Seyfried" and read some of his articles.
"Googled" him and several articles regarding "Jurassic Park" the movie showed up... famous guy?

.

[elijdub]

Glad to help Coffee! For 400lbs bears, the smallest gun i'd feel comfortable carrying would be a .357magnum. The 44magnum covers pretty much anything in North America, which, i think, is why it's so widely carried. You can achieve similar ballisitcs using very hot loaded ammo...like Buffalo Bore (http://www.buffalobore.com/)...or by handloading... For those who don't use either method, the 44mag is an easy choice for wilderness protection, IMHO.

[twin oaks]

I gotta echo elijdub's, post. It's been a few days since I logged in and I just read your intended use. Go for the .44 mag. It's readily available, holsters for it shouldn't be difficult to find, and there's a plethora of amunition readily available. Plus, you have the option to run .44 specials in it to work on speed drills, presentation + first shot, etc., without wearing out the hands. A .454 Casull is a fine caliber, but recoils so much that you won't enjoy practicing with it. That (in my book) means that you won't really have any proficiency with it, and it becomes a larg(ish), heavy, noise maker that's fairly expensive to shoot.

[Coffee]

You bring up a good point about ammo cost. .44 mag seems inexpensive as any of the larger caliber ammo. We already have a .44 mag carbine so no need to buy a different caliber. Think it is, hang on............yep 3 bullets left, need to get more, its been a while since we bought any, $3.60 for a box of 20, ammo MAY have gone up in price since that was bought.... LOL




Anyone know why .44 special ammo costs about the same as .44 magnum? .44 special would probably give lower recoil & less 'boom' at the range... Any other advantages the 44 special has over the 44 mag for target practice?

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[dogdollar]

Anyone know why .44 special ammo costs about the same as .44 magnum? .44 special would probably give lower recoil & less 'boom' at the range... Any other advantages the 44 special has over the 44 mag for target practice?

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It's one of those unsolvable mysteries.

DD

[Coffee]

It's one of those unsolvable mysteries.

DD


LOL.......

[elijdub]

Plus, you have the option to run .44 specials in it to work on speed drills, presentation + first shot, etc., without wearing out the hands. A .454 Casull is a fine caliber, but recoils so much that you won't enjoy practicing with it. That (in my book) means that you won't really have any proficiency with it, and it becomes a larg(ish), heavy, noise maker that's fairly expensive to shoot.
Very good points. I use 44 Special ammo for practice in two different "woods companions". I do the same thing with a S&W Combat Magnum, using 38's for practice instead of 357's... I think it's important to become proficient with the magnum ammo...and practice with it occassionally...but beyond that i'll shoot the more mild ammo ;).

[littledoc]

Anyone know why .44 special ammo costs about the same as .44 magnum?
Two reasons, mostly.
1. Supply and demand, the mag just sells more.
2. Both cartridges use almost the same amount of materials to make, except the powder.

.44 special would probably give lower recoil & less 'boom' at the range... Any other advantages the 44 special has over the 44 mag for target practice?

It's just plain fun to shoot. :) The .44 Special is a pretty darn good self defense cartridge, too.