3" barrel defensive ammo

[curmudgeon4]

I have a Colt New Agent with a 3" barrel and haven't had an opportunity to actually measure the muzzle velocity with a chronograph yet, but figuring 45 fps loss per inch of barrel from a 5", that would put me at about 740 fps with my 230 gr. Remington Golden Saber hollow points. What I don't have any info on, is that adequate velocity for that ammo to expand properly in self defense use. Does anyone have any info on this? Thanks for your response.

[TcRoc]

I just got my defender too and am thinking about going with 200gr TAP or even a 185 gr

[MCPO]

Speers Gold Dot Short Barrel Hollow Points (http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx) have a ballastic table that shows

Velocity(in feet per second)
Muzzle - 820
50 yards - 783
100 yards - 749

However that's with a 4" barrel, so slightly less for 3".

My Colt OACP eats WWB 230gr JHP with ease, but has ocassional problems loading the Speer. 185gr may be a better answer.

[garrettwc]

Speed Gold Dot Short Barrel JHP
Corbon DPX

Those are the only two I would currently consider for barrels shorter than 4 inches.

[Wolfpuppies3]

A recent magazine article advised that you need at least 1050 fps for a JHP to expand. If you don't have that velocity, you are better off with a FMJ round. Just reitterating what I read.

[kcshooter]

A recent magazine article advised that you need at least 1050 fps for a JHP to expandI seriously doubt the veracity of that article. I'd have to see that actually proven in a controlled ballistics test before I believed this information.

[azreloader]

It may have said that was needed for "maximum" expansion, but you will get some expansion at velocities considerably lower than that. I think any of the modern "flying ashcans" will give satisfactory results. My personal preference is the "Golden Sabers", but more because they function flawlessly in my gun, that their expansion performance.

[ferretray]

Anybody know of a test of the Federal 200 grn. EFMJ in a 3" 1911?

[CDJ]

7 x's .45 = better than 3 inches. that's alotta drainage.
currently i use 230gr gold dots in my oacp. if it dosen't expand to max i really don't think a bg would know the difference.

[Hank Dodge]

Well...my Defender turned out to be a bit of a lemon and just got sent back to Colt to be looked at for functional issues. However, it proved to be accurate with the Hornady 230 grain XTP rounds that I sent through it while test firing the weapon.

Hank

[michael t]

My Agent ,Defender, Officer acp ,and Detonics ,are all fed the same 185gr DPX +P by Corbon . These little copper rockets will get the job done 15" in jell. Recoil to me feels like a 230 in these little compacts.

[curmudgeon4]

Thanks for the responses and different perspectives.
With the 1911 design, I chose the Golden Sabers primarily for the same reason AZRELOADER mentioned; functioning reliably in my gun. It's because their nose has a fat profile that comes closest to .45acp ball ammo for which the 1911 was designed. Also I didn't want to go to a lighter bullet because I wanted to retain the punch of the 230gr.
With the limited info I have at this point, I'm thinking the hollow points have a "window" of velocity for the expansion function; say like 150fps and in degrees of.
I didn't consider +p ammo to make up for the loss with the 3" barrel because of the gun's aluminum alloy frame.
Seems like the whole deal becomes a series of compromises.
Thanks again for the response.

[Hawkmoon]

I started doing some research on velocity loss vs. barrel length. Results were counter-intuitive and I'm gearing up to run a second session, this time using more cartridges of fewer types of ammo, and two pistols in each barrel length.

My preliminary results suggest that a 3" barrel loses between 15% and 20% velocity compared to a 5" barrel. The real problem is, I don't think the manufacturers will tell you what the minimum velocity is for reliable expansion. I've contacted them all. Only one responded -- said they'd have someone contact me. That was several months ago ...

The Speer "short barrel" ammo is not just loaded hotter for more velocity. The bullet is different, designed to expand at lower velocity. You can't compare that round to any standard .45 ACP JHP ammo, because the others were all developed and optimized for a 5" barrel.

If you look at the reviews in the e-zine, you'll find some data for 3" barrels. Hunter tested the Colt New Agent, for example. That has a 3" barrel.

Here are some ballistics charts:


SIG C3 Compact (4-1/4" barrel)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/reviews/SIGC3/velocitytable.jpg

Wilson Sentinal Compact (3-5/8" barrel)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/reviews/WCSentinelC/velocitytable.jpg

Colt New Agent (3" barrel)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/reviews/ColtNA/velocitytable.jpg

[ranburr]

7 x's .45 = better than 3 inches. that's alotta drainage.
currently i use 230gr gold dots in my oacp. if it dosen't expand to max i really don't think a bg would know the difference.

+1

ranburr

[flintsghost]

I used Remington 185 grain Golden Sabre Bonded +p in my defender. It gives excellent accuracy. A recent published report that I saw online showed it gave 1021 fps actual chronographed velocity from a 3.5" para ordnance. That should be more than enough for whatever one is going run up against, even with a deduction for the .5" of barrel you loose in the Colt.

[Hank Dodge]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no ballistics wizard. Why would folks chose to use anything less than a 230 grain slug in a defensive weapon? I guess I've always gone by the theory that a heavier slug is better; and at fighting distances, a slight reduction in muzzle velocity just seems negligible to me. The only time I've loaded light for caliber rounds was when I was trying to flatten out trajectory for longer range target shooting. Is it really true that a lighter weight bullet at a slightly higher velocity would be of more benefit in a close range defensive situation as well?

[Dimarini]

I have been using the Corbon 165gr +P. They are advertised at 1250 fps from a 5" barrel.

[curmudgeon4]

Using anything less than 230 gr. in JMB's masterpiece seems almost sacrilegus.
Almost like downsizing to .40 s&w. :) uh-oh, now I've done it.

[Dimarini]

Using anything less than 230 gr. in JMB's masterpiece seems almost sacrilegus.
Almost like downsizing to .40 s&w. :) uh-oh, now I've done it.

Yeah, kinda like a .40 S&W that leaves a bigger hole. :D

[Murphjup]

I use 200 grain +P Speer Gold for my New Agent, I figure that the lighter round and the +P makes up for the shorter barrell length... I have had no problems with FTF's etc... I do not use these for practice rounds there I typically use 230 Grain ball ammo... which works and feeds fine as well...

:)

[Hawkmoon]

Why would folks chose to use anything less than a 230 grain slug in a defensive weapon? ... Is it really true that a lighter weight bullet at a slightly higher velocity would be of more benefit in a close range defensive situation as well?
One word: E-X-P-A-N-S-I-O-N

Hollow-point ammo, and especially jacketed hollow-point ammo, requires a minimum velocity in order to achieve expansion. I don't know what the numbers are for contemporary JHP commercial bullets. I'm sure there's some variation from one brand to another, but they are probably all in a range. And I don't know of any manufacturer that will reveal just what the minimum velocity is. I contacted every major commercial ammo maker to ask. Only one even acknowledged my question ... but they didn't answer it.

The bottom line is, people are concerned that the loss of velocity out of a short barrel may drop the bullet speed below the magic number required for reliable expansion. Yeah, it still makes a half inch (almost) hole -- but a slightly lighter bullet traveling faster may expand and produce a 3/4" hole, with a more/better developed wound channel.

[Dimarini]

Not to mention that the velocity is squared in the formula for kinetic energy.

[Sarge45]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no ballistics wizard. Why would folks chose to use anything less than a 230 grain slug in a defensive weapon? I guess I've always gone by the theory that a heavier slug is better; and at fighting distances, a slight reduction in muzzle velocity just seems negligible to me. The only time I've loaded light for caliber rounds was when I was trying to flatten out trajectory for longer range target shooting. Is it really true that a lighter weight bullet at a slightly higher velocity would be of more benefit in a close range defensive situation as well?

That is an argument that has progressed for many years with no real agreement on one or the other. Lighter and faster versus heavier and slower. I used to use the lighter .45 slugs in +P thinking I would be ensured better expansion but with age I like to think I have become wiser. I now use 200's (maybe +P) occassionally and 230's in standard loading whenever I can get them in my fav HP flavor.

Who knows ? Marshall ? Sanow ? The debate rages. I'm really of the opinion that if my gun is 100% with my load of choice, it is a good one right off the bat. Anything else is icing on the cake and extra bonus points.

[ranburr]

Personally, I go with a 230HP. If it expands, fantastic. If it doesn't, then I am still putting the largest projectile that I can find on the target.

ranburr.

[Rio Vista Slim]

Anybody know of a test of the Federal 200 grn. EFMJ in a 3" 1911?
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_0687.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_0686.jpg
These are photographs of the aforementioned cartridge, but in the 185 gr. loading. I haven't been able to find any of these EFMJ (expanding full metal jacket) rounds for quite awhile. When the cartridge was readily available, I was quite pleased with its expansion qualities.

At present, I carry Hornady 230 gr. TAP +P in my Colt New Agent.

[Hawkmoon]

At present, I carry Hornady 230 gr. TAP +P in my Colt New Agent.
So do I, in a Para-Ordnance Slim Hawg.

But I'm seriously considering changing to the short-barrel ammo if I can find some. Here's why:

When I first set up to start the comparative velocity testing I've mentioned several times, I had the chronograph set about 12 feet from the muzzle. I had no problems when shooting the full-size P14.45 or the Commander-size P13.45. When I shot the 12.45 LDA (which is an Officers size pistol with a 3-1/2" barrel) I initially encountered chrony errors. It just wasn't reading or reporting any data. It could not have been weak batteries, because I was at an indoor range, running the chrony on a/c power.

The same thing happened with several different types of ammo. Eventually, I began to see the pattern and I moved the sky screen out from 12 feet to 15 feet. No more errors.

What does this mean? It means that out of short barrels, some very high-performance rounds were expelling so much unburned powder and residue that the "stuff" was following the bullet 12 feet beyond the muzzle and interfering with reading the velocity of the bullet. Whatever energy that unburned powder should produce is completely wasted if the powder hasn't burned before the bullet leave the muzzle. Paying a premium for +P ammo may mean that you're actually wasting MORE energy than with a standard pressure round. Unless you know the minimum velocity at which that round's bullet will expand reliably, just choosing a +P ammo for a short barrel may not assure reliable expansion.

[ferretray]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_0687.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a294/RioVistaSlim/IMG_0686.jpg
These are photographs of the aforementioned cartridge, but in the 185 gr. loading. I haven't been able to find any of these EFMJ (expanding full metal jacket) rounds for quite awhile. When the cartridge was readily available, I was quite pleased with its expansion qualities.

At present, I carry Hornady 230 gr. TAP +P in my Colt New Agent.
It WAS available @/Ammoman but it looks like the only thing he has right now in .45 ACP is Wolf.

[dakota1911]

Back in the 80's when I bought my little Detonics and used to reload a lot this topic used to come up. Most information on this was and still is about rifles, but I seem to remember there was an article out there that talked exactly to this point when handloading .45 ACP for pistols with short barrels. As I recall it suggested fast burning powders like Bullseye and heavy (230gr) bullets. The idea was to develope max pressure before the bullet left the barrel. I can't remember where I saw it, although most likely it was in Guns&Ammo or the Rifleman.

[1901saa]

Does anyone have any information on the Corbon 165 Powerball? I was considering this for feeding issues with hollowpoints. It is advertised as being a fast round and with that little ball in the hp it should expand.