Is this also a parlor trick?

[Greyswindir]

Hi,

I was reading that a pistol should be able to eject a fired case with the magazine taken out of the pistol. If a pistol fails to eject the fired case with the magazine removed from the gun, is the gun then considered defective in some fashion?

What would be the value of having a pistol that can eject a fired case without the mag in the gun?

[wichaka]

I guess I don't see the trick, a pistol should be able to eject a fired round whether there's a mag in the gun or not, as the mag has no bearing on anything pertaining to that.........that's an extractor function, and the mag has no bearing on the extractor.

[ClarkEMyers]

Likely enough the question came up in something like Patrick Sweeney's Gun Digest/Krause Book of the 1911 where ejection of a loaded cartridge - longer than an empty case - through the magazine well is discussed at length and listed in the tables that accompany each pistol discussed at length.

No question the traditional Browning design 1911 should eject empty cases regardless of magazine - although notice there are all the folks who like/dislike an extended ejector (not extractor).

On the other hand there are a number of semi-automatic pistols in which the presence or absence of the magazine severely impacts ejection, including empty case ejection - sometimes for good reason.

Frex the traditional Seecamp super compact semi-automatic relies on the presence of the magazine because the next cartridge up contributes to the ejection function - the last shot from a Seecamp will often -even usually - stove pipe something Seecamp users know and expect and accept given the special nature and application of the Seecamp.

There have been a fair number of small semi-automatics over the years - typically WW1 and following European made - where the presence of the next cartridge -or magazine lips - contributes to - or is - the entire - ejector function.

I suspect without really knowing that a given author might object to magazine safeties and to a last round stovepipe on some sort of metaphysical approach to a perfect pistol.

On the other hand some LEO use has shown an argument for disabling the pistol absent the magazine - tales of the S&W model 39 where supply is close to the legitimate user in contrast to wartime expedients where supply isn't close.

[1911Tuner]

I was reading that a pistol should be able to eject a fired case with the magazine taken out of the pistol.


Indeed it should. If the extractor is doing its job properly...it will

[Greyswindir]

Thanks everyone, the first part of my question was answered completely.

Now, can anyone think of a reason where it is a "must" that a pistol eject a fired casing without the mag in the pistol?

thanks.

[Bandito]

If there is no magazine, it matters not if the spent casing is ejected or not. You would only have one bullet and have better hit your target.

[Greyswindir]

Hi Bandito,

That is pretty much how I looked at it also. One of those experts, Hilton Yam, or was it Larry Vickers, mentioned this on another forum. both have combat experience, so maybe that figures into the whole discussion.

[1911Tuner]

here is no magazine, it matters not if the spent casing is ejected or not. You would only have one bullet and have better hit your target.

But if you miss and the pistol jams on the case that gets caught in the port...and they can jam up pretty tight...it makes it slower to get back into action once the fresh magazine is locked in. Life and death and winners and losers are very often decided in fractions of seconds. Time is a luxury that you don't have when somebody is trying to kill you.

So...I must beg to differ with the experts once again. If MY pistol won't eject reliably without a magazine, I'm gonna fix it. Everyone else may do as they deem necessary.

[Greyswindir]

Bingo!

That is what I was looking for...and imagine ole' Tuner coming to the rescue!

"Time is a luxury that you don't have when somebody is trying to kill you."

Point well taken.

[1911Tuner]

Bingo!

That is what I was looking for


And may we assume that you're headed over to 10-8 to bust Hilton's chops?

:lh:

[Greyswindir]

Hahaha :appld:

Nah Tuner, you know I'm no troublemaker! :D

I'm content to soak up as much "accurate" information as I possibly can...and this is the place to find it.

Thanks.

[1911Tuner]

Nah Tuner, you know I'm no troublemaker!

Forsooth! You mean that I took the trouble to write that up, and you ain't even gonna go rattle his cage?

I'm...speechless. And you can quote me.

:D

[log man]

Larry Vickers, Hilton Yam, et.al agree that a 1911 should fire and eject without a mag in place. There is no disagreement.

LOG

[1911Tuner]

Larry Vickers, Hilton Yam, et.al agree that a 1911 should fire and eject without a mag in place. There is no disagreement.

Oops! My bad. I thought they'd said that it didn't matter...

[WinchesterAA]

My reload procedure is 7/8+1, fire 7/8 rounds, eject magazine, insert new one. Always one in the pipe just incase BG hears mag hit the ground, assumes I'm reloading, or any number of other things that are just as unlikely but in the event of, would surely be bad.

That's why it's nice to have a firearm that fires and ejects without a magazine inserted. Even nicer when it ejects with a magazine inserted.

[Greyswindir]

Don't worry Tuner, there's always tomorrow!

[wichaka]

You may want to quote Yam and/or Vickers about them saying that it doesn't matter. I would like to see what they said about it.

The gun has to be reliable no matter where the mag is, or in what position the gun is....period.

[log man]

The gun has to be reliable no matter where the mag is, or in what position the gun is....period.

And wichaka that is in so many words (your quote) what they said. The OP apparently didn't realize that he was supporting a misunderstanding with his exchange with Tuner.

LOG

[wichaka]

Ahhhh gotcha.........

I would have been very surprised if Larry or Hilton would have thought it's ok for a 1911 not be able to do that.

[1911Tuner]

Misunderstandings, gents. The report that I got was that *somebody* over on 10-8 said that it wouldn't matter because...lemme see if I can remember it verbatim...
"You'll only have one round anyway, so as long as you don't miss...it shouldn't matter."

In my haste, I very likely misread who said it....or assumed...and you know what they say about that. ;)

My apologies for any misquotes based on incorrect assumptions.

[Greyswindir]

Hold on Log man,

And wichaka that is in so many words (your quote) what they said. The OP apparently didn't realize that he was supporting a misunderstanding with his exchange with Tuner.

I am the OP and I never mentioned anything about Yam Or Vickers concerning this thread, except that it was mentioned elsewhere. Reread the post and you'll see what I mean. Better yet, here is what I said:

One of those experts, Hilton Yam, or was it Larry Vickers, mentioned this on another forum. both have combat experience, so maybe that figures into the whole discussion.

Now, where do you see anything in this quote that makes a negative mention of either of those two men, or a mention that they wouldn't care about ejecting a fired case minus the mag? Nowhere...exactly! There was no "misunderstanding", at least no by me, and in reality, you misunderstood the post. :nono:

[Hill]

I'd bet that the whole discussion you "overheard" probably was about some other pistol design.

Seems to my weakening memory that the little Seecamp, and possibly others, won't eject, or will stovepipe, the casing of last round fired if the magazine is removed, or something or other like that. I saw something about that question but ignored it as wasteful of my time and gradually diminishing brainpower.

[kel]

It matters when the extractor drops the case and the front of the ejection port jams it into the feed lips of the magazine locking the gun up for the twenty seconds it takes you to lock the slide back (if you can) and pry the stuck case out of the feed lips of the mag while the clock is ticking.

[Greyswindir]

No Hill,

It was about the 1911. If it has something to do with reliability, and on top of that, could possibly get you killed, it is worth the time to ask questions.

True Kel, not what you want to happen in the thick of it!

[Tom in Ohio]

I've been instructing at the police academy the last two weeks and have also seen this with the pistols in my department - 9mm and .40 Glocks (for some reason not the .45) will reliably malfunction without the magazine seated.

We have the students perform misfire drills by unseating their magazines. The pistol is supposed to fire once, then go "click" on the next trigger press, and then the students performs the old "tap, rack, bang"

Glocks in 9mm and .40 have a tendency to fail to eject the fired case and often load the fired case back into the chamber backwards.

It seems to me that the magazine plays a part in proper extraction with these pistols. I think that the absence of the magazine allows the extracted case to fall slightly and causes the ejector to strike too high on the case - propelling it straight ahead instead of up and out.

[kel]

In designs other then the 1911 the magazine plays a larger role because the breechface and extractor are much closer to the magazine. The 1911 has that long disconnector rail that separates them. I don't know if they are supposed to work without the magazine, but I do know this is why many of them are incompatible with sharp shouldered wadcutter bullet profiles.

[1911Tuner]

The 1911 has that long disconnector rail

Well...The rail serves several functions. It strips the round from the magazine and feeds it. That has to be present, regardless of the pistol's design. It's also the cocking rail, and it serves to catch the hammer after the rebound to keep it from falling directly back onto the sear after that violent bounce.

The round has to pop up in front of the rail face after it uncovers the magazine. Lock a loaded magazine into the pistol with the slide in battery...and then with the slide loacked back. You'll notice that it's less resistant when the slide is back. That's because the top round is forced deeper into the magazine against spring tension by that center rail.

The bullet design doesn't have anything to do with ejection.

The magazine has an effect on ejection until the last round. The rising cartridges prevent the extracting case in transit from dropping or angling on the breechface. Ejection is more consistent because the case rim is more consistently located relative the the ejector. That's subject to change when the last round is extracting. Extractor tension plays a role, too. If the tension is optimum, the last round doesn't
change its position or its placement on the breechface as much...though it's still doesn't stay as consistently oriented as it does when a cartridge is under it.

Lastly...The rising cartridge bumps the extracting case as the center rail uncovers it and lets it rise. This effect is largely negated with extended ejectors that strike the case before the rail releases the next round.

[kel]

Well...The rail serves several functions. It strips the round from the magazine and feeds it. That has to be present, regardless of the pistol's design. It's also the cocking rail, and it serves to catch the hammer after the rebound to keep it from falling directly back onto the sear after that violent bounce.
The part of the slide that disconnects whatever trigger bar or disconnector a pistol has is not always the same as the part that strips the round from the magazine and not all designs have hammers. Take a look at a Springfield XD slide, specifically at the position the head of the case is in after the barrel has unlocked. That rail is not as tall as it is on the 1911 and there is less distance between the empty case and the magazine. On most designs the head of the case is closer to or below the bottom of that rail.

The bullet design doesn't have anything to do with ejection.
On some designs other then the 1911 it does. The head of the case can contact the shoulder of the top round in the magazine. It can also cause problems in a defective 1911 that has an extractor that drops or worse yet squirts the case down the breechface.

[1911Tuner]

On some designs other then the 1911

Tuner<----Lookin' around...

Hmmm

But, we're talkin' about 1911s...Right?

The head of the case can contact the shoulder of the top round in the magazine.

Seen those. I consider it a design flaw.

It can also cause problems in a defective 1911 that has an extractor that drops or worse yet squirts the case down the breechface.

And that...is a malfunction that should be corrected.