FTEject still an issue

[JaimeZX]

Please ref this thread for the backstory.
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=33735

Here it is months later and I'm still having the same issue. Anything but Blazer Aluminum and the gun only ejects 50-70% of rounds fired. (2-3 times per magazine.) The extractor gets a nice, snug grip on the casing, but it doesn't reliably eject it.

So I fire and the slide moves (I don't have a high-speed camera to see exactly what's going on) but stops partway closed. The fired brass is held snugly by the extractor, partway into the chamber. (The slide usually stops around 1/2" from battery.)

To clear I have to eject and re-insert the magazine (which involves pulling it somewhat forcefully from the weapon) then racking the slide. Removing the magazine allows the slide to RTB.

I'm at a loss for what to do here. Should I get a new ejector at this point?

Advice is always very welcome.

Thanks!

[John]

Wait a sec, let's clarify a few issues here.

You are talking about a failure to eject, right? You are sure that it is a failure to eject, in other words, the gun fires, the slide starts moving but does not eject the fired case, is that correct?

Can you tell if the slide goes all the way back and then moves forward with the fired case still in it, or if the slide stops in mid-course as it goes backwards? Also, please check that your ejector is still in place and not broken. Is that a 5" pistol?

Waiting......

[berkbw]

So - what has taken place, if anything, in the last year?
What are you using/have you used for ammo?
When did you last replace your extractor? If it fails to extract often, it is no longer good - failed extractions will kill extractors.
What mfg./mat'l is your bbl?

Do you have any samples of fresh, factory (like WWB), brass that failed to eject? And how did you remove the case?

Is there a recent hi-res photo of your extractor?

What do you use to clean and lube?

Help us to help you.

[1911Tuner]

Check the extractor hook's depth from tip to tensioning wall. With an extended ejector, if the hook is more than .038 inch deep, it can put the rim in a bind with the ejector as it tries to roll off the hook.

If the gun is short-cycling due to overspringing, that could also cause a problem with ejection.

[JaimeZX]

So - what has taken place, if anything, in the last year?
What are you using/have you used for ammo?
When did you last replace your extractor? If it fails to extract often, it is no longer good - failed extractions will kill extractors.
What mfg./mat'l is your bbl?

Do you have any samples of fresh, factory (like WWB), brass that failed to eject? And how did you remove the case?

Is there a recent hi-res photo of your extractor?

What do you use to clean and lube?

Help us to help you.


Gents, thanks for the replies so far. I'll take a few pictures and post here shortly.

5" pistol.

John, you are correct: I fire and the only noticable difference between a good round and non-ejected one is that I notice the slide has not returned to battery. So presumably since everything *feels* the same, the slide has bounced off of the slide stop. Again I don't have any sort of high-speed camera so I can't say for sure. It doesn't feel like the slide stops after just 1/2" of total travel. I believe the slide is bouncing off the slide stop and then not returning to battery while still containing the spent brass.

Berkbw: 90% of what I shoot is Blazer Aluminum. (Well, or .22LR with my conversion kit.) I don't have issues with BA. BUT if I try to shoot anything else, that's when I have the issue. Blazer Brass, WWB, Remington UMC, my friend's reloads...

I can't remember exactly when I replaced the extractor but I'm certainly willing to try a new one. It may be 1500-2000 rounds old. Still, if the extractor is firmly holding brass in place, is that likely to be the issue?

I have not saved any of the FTE brass. How to I remove the case? I manually cycle the slide and that ejects it. Which presents a connundrum: if manually cycling the slide ejects the brass, why doesn't it happen when the slide cycles automatically?

Clean & lube is Hoppe's #9 & oil or Weapon Shield.

Again, I'll take a few pictures for posting after I have breakfast.

Thanks again!

[John]

OK, first of all the slide doesn't bounce off the slide stop. The slide stop is there to stop the slide when the last round is fired. It also stops the barrel's forward motion, when the slide returns forward.

With that clarification out of our way, several things that you need to check:

- Extractor tension: how tight is the extractor grasping a live round? Do the extractor test, as it is described in our Technical Issues forum.
- Can the extractor clock inside its tunnel?
- Is the ejector installed properly? Can it move at all?
- Check what Tuner mentioned above.
- Make sure you have the proper 16 lbs recoil spring in the pistol.

[JaimeZX]

John, thanks again. I'm not noticing any extractor clocking. The extractor grips the cartridge in a satisfactory manner, I think. It will hold the cartridge through a 360 degree rotation and also in a little wiggle.

How is the extractor supposed to move? (Besides a little spring movement on the hook.)

I'll measure the hook on the extractor soon. I have the basic Wilson Combat heavy-duty extractor and spring set. I think it's an 18# spring?


My apologies for a dirty gun; haven't had a chance to clean it from yesterday just yet.


http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/extractor.jpg

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector.jpg

[log man]

Sounds like it's short stroking, an 18# recoil spring can do that with factory loads. Try a 15# or 16# recoil spring.

LOG

[John]

The only strange thing I can see (which shouldn't be that significant to leave an empty shell under the extractor claw) is the shape of the ejector nose. Have a look here:

http://www.blindhogg.com/gunsmith/ejector.html

The hook may be too deep, but there is no way to check it from far away, can you measure it?

[1911Tuner]

I'm with John on this one. Didn't look at Blindhog's link...but the ejector nose geometry looks wrong in the above picture. The bottom is first contact point...way yonder too low on the case. Can't figure why they decided on that...

I'd take a small file and just break the point straight across the width to create a small flat...or make any existing flat a little larger...and test-fire it to see if it changes anything. Easy does it. Just a little change in shape goes a long way.

[JaimeZX]

Okay, I'll investigate and get back to y'all. Thanks again!

Jim

[JaimeZX]

Gentlemen, I took some better pictures of the ejector.

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector-side.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector-top.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)

Based on the Blindhogg link it looks like maybe I need to angle the ejector up a smidge and "in" a smidge, yes?

I drew up a quick thing to indicate my thoughts; tell me if this is correct, please.

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector-side-2.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector-top-2.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)

Should it be more (or less?) dramatic than what I have here?

Thanks again! :D

Jim

Edit: Reread Tuner's post and the Blindhogg thing. The photo BH has
( http://www.blindhogg.com/pics/ejector3.jpg ) makes his ejector filing look more extreme than what I sketched. That said, Tuner you reccomend I just break the top edge a little with the file and slowly work my way towards my sketch?

[log man]

JamieZX, small changes make big differences, the angles you're showing may be to much. A different approach is to file a 45 degree on the top inside corner.

It appears that the ejector might need some material taken off on the under side ,as it looks like a mag may have hit it. Check a few mags to make sure and take appropriate action.

Also if you're still using an 18# recoil spring try a 16#, or a 15#, you might like the way it feels and it could help ejection.

LOG

[John]

JamieZX, I would start with a shape like the one shown at the top, in the drawing below. In that way, you bring the point of first impact a little higher up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/ejectorshape.jpg

And yes, create a slight bevel towards the ejection port, as shown at your last picture.

[dawsti]

That ejector looks fine, focus your attention your extractor tension.

[John]

Whatever you say!!!

[Greyswindir]

Yup,

The ejector is flat, it should be angled, and since it isn't then it is most likely a bit too long and not allowing the case enough clearance to eject properly. That and the 18lbs. recoil spring and you've got trouble.

Sheesh!

That ejector is not fine!

[irq23]

I had another thought. How far is the eject from the breach face? If it is too far away the brass could not be catching enough of the ejector for reliable ejection. Where does this happen most often? First round, last round?

[JaimeZX]

I't not USUALLY the first round but you can't really predict it. Could happen anywhere in the magazine. I'll file the ejector gently today or tomorrow and get back with y'all on results. :)

Thanks!

Jim

[Greyswindir]

Hey Jim,

Look at some other pistols to get a good idea on how you need to file your ejector. Make sure the guns you look at are 5" govs. There is more to it then just shortening the ejector, you'll also need to put an angle on it. It's not difficult, but as we all have learned at some point or another...once the metal has been removed it cannot be put back.

[1911Tuner]

*sigh*

Before we start grinding or filing on anything...let's be sure to eliminate other possibilities.

First...be aware that an outright failure to eject is almost never the fault of the ejector. If the case hits the ejector with enough speed and energy...the case will eject. It may not exit at the angle that you want...and it may be all over the place...but it'll eject.

Extended ejectors sometimes present some unique problems if other things are present....the main one being the dept of the extractor hook from tip to breechface.

The geometry of the hook's nose can put the case rim into a bind between the hook and the ejector.

Short recoil will do it. Usually the fault lies with too much spring, but...assuming standard slide mass and the absence of weight-adding accoutrements...bad barrel timing can cause the slide to lose momentum. Check the top, front corners of the barrel lugs for signs of crashing with the slide lugs. Reshaping...radiusing, or rounding...peening...flanging...all these things suggest that the slide is losing velocity and energy/momentum because of mechanical interference.

The use of a shock buff reduces slide travel. That alters ejection...whether you're using a standard ejector or an extended type.

[dawsti]

Leave that ejector alone and listen to Tuner. He has the knowledge.

[John]

So.... it's not an issue of the extractor tension any longer????

[log man]

The use of a shock buff reduces slide travel. That alters ejection...whether you're using a standard ejector or an extended type.

Tuner, you bring so much understanding with your luminous descriptions of the 1911s function. Could you explain how a shock buff effects ejection in a 5" model, when the breach face and extractor is at least 3/8" past the point of ejection before the dust cover contacts the buff, which is .100 thick. How does the shell, extractor or ejector even know it's there and why would they care?

THANKS, RICHARD

[1911Tuner]

So.... it's not an issue of the extractor tension any longer????

It very well could be...but from what I can see, everybody wants to start whackin' on the ejector to cure a failure to eject.

Could you explain how a shock buff effects ejection in a 5" model, when the breach face and extractor is at least 3/8" past the point of ejection before the dust cover contacts the buff, which is .100 thick.

The extra .100 inch of spring compression in preload alters the spring's rate. Although it doesn't affect the final compressed load resistance...it does cause the spring to slow the slide faster. Slower slide means reduced impact when the case rim hits the ejector which means that the case isn't flung out of the port with the same brio as it does without the buffer with a given spring.

[log man]

It very well could be...but from what I can see, everybody wants to start whackin' on the ejector to cure a failure to eject.



The extra .100 inch of spring compression in preload alters the spring's rate. Although it doesn't affect the final compressed load resistance...it does cause the spring to slow the slide faster. Slower slide means reduced impact when the case rim hits the ejector which means that the case isn't flung out of the port with the same brio as it does without the buffer with a given spring.

Good point, but isn't the addition of added preload maybe 4-6oz. a good thing? And so wouldn't the small radius firing pin stop also slow the slide in the beginning as well? And negatively effect ejection. Are we splitting hairs? Or should one bump the charge up .5 grains. There's not doubt that I am a horses backside, but I have tried to experience the difference and have not been able to functionally tell the difference. With the exception of not being able to drop the slide stop by pulling the slide back on 1/2 my guns. How many feet difference could it make on ejection and does it matter if you eject 8' or 7'? :butthead: Next time out I'm going to try 3 buffers at once and see if I can tell any difference and what it is, and will report back. I also have tried buffers in a 4" Kimber, a Detonics CM and Colt Officers models with no ill effects at all. :)

CAN'T HAVE TOO MANY 1911s, RICHARD

[1911Tuner]

Good point, but isn't the addition of added preload maybe 4-6oz. a good thing?

Didn't say it was a bad thing. I said that it would change the spring's rate...slow the slide...and have an effect on ejection.

All my 5-inch beaters kick the empties about 4-6 feet from the gun...without a buff. With a buff, they kick'em out at 3-4 feet...and the last round barely makes it, and falls beside my left foot.

[JaimeZX]

Man, I wish I could; unfortunately all my gun buddies have you-name-it-except-for-1911s. I plan to put the tiniest of angles on it and then test fire. Worst-case scenario I need a new one. Which would definately be annoying but hopefully I'll be okay. I plan to do the filing here shortly and then I'll post an "after" pic. I plan to test fire tomorrow or Sunday and carry the HP in the meantime. (Fits in the same holster! :) )

[1911Tuner]

I plan to put the tiniest of angles on it and then test fire.

Well...if you must...Use this as a guide.

http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/ejection%20perfection.htm

[JaimeZX]

EGAD. I swear I hit "refresh" on this thread before acting but apparently I didn't. Now I've gone and filed before seeing Tuner's 0734 post.

*sigh*
I know.


Before we start grinding or filing on anything...let's be sure to eliminate other possibilities.
Good!

First...be aware that an outright failure to eject is almost never the fault of the ejector. If the case hits the ejector with enough speed and energy...the case will eject. It may not exit at the angle that you want...and it may be all over the place...but it'll eject. I'll pay closer attention to where my brass goes during the test firing.

Extended ejectors sometimes present some unique problems if other things are present....the main one being the depth of the extractor hook from tip to breechface.
The geometry of the hook's nose can put the case rim into a bind between the hook and the ejector.
My current extractor is a Wilson Combat "Bullet Proof." Per the link you provided, it has the appropriate bevel on the belly. I am open to getting a Brazos extractor if you think that's superior.
All that said, while I understood what you said here, I'm not sure how to diagnose this as being the issue. I guess I could swap out the WC extractor for my old one to see if the problem goes away. Perhaps I should've done this before. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/hsugh.gif

Short recoil will do it. Usually the fault lies with too much spring, but...assuming standard slide mass and the absence of weight-adding accoutrements...bad barrel timing can cause the slide to lose momentum. Check the top, front corners of the barrel lugs for signs of crashing with the slide lugs. Reshaping...radiusing, or rounding...peening...flanging...all these things suggest that the slide is losing velocity and energy/momentum because of mechanical interference.
I don't see any peening on the barrel lugs, do you? I could be overlooking it... I am not the expert.
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/barrel-macro.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)

I have the WC spring set which also appears to be 18.5#. I guess I ought to hunt down a 16-pounder somewhere. Reccommendations?

The use of a shock buff reduces slide travel. That alters ejection...whether you're using a standard ejector or an extended type.
I don't run Shok-Buffs or anything along those lines.

In any event, here are the fruits of my labor. Hopefully it's not too ham-handed! I welcome your thoughts, whatever they might be!

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector-side-3.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector-side-3a.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/ejector-top-3.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)

Thank you all, as always!

Jim

[1911Tuner]

The Wilson extrator is fine. Measure the depth of the claw from the tip to the bottom of the tensioning wall. If it's more than .038 inch, it's probably putting the case rim in a bind with the extended ejector. If it's long...file it to .035 inch, being careful to cut straight across.

Cut a small radius on the bottom of the claw, and break the corner on the top...so that when you look at the front of the extractor with the hook facing to your right...as if you were pointing the gun at your face... it looks like a "D"...but a little more square and not as symmetrical. Now you have a clearer escape route for the case as it twists off the extractor.

Good thing that you have plenty of length on the ejector...'cause you're probably gonna hafta redo it.

It should be okay with the 18.5 pound spring. 16 would be better.

EDIT TO ADD:

Almost forgot...

The bevel that you cut at the bottom of the tensioning wall to let the rim cam the extractor open easier? Do a very light one at the top as well. Just break the corner.

[1911Tuner]

One last thing. Hard to tell from the lighting, but you appear to have something going on with the barrel lugs. Shift the camera to light the FRONT faces of the lugs instead of the back, and post another picture.

[JaimeZX]

The Wilson extrator is fine. Measure the depth of the claw from the tip to the bottom of the tensioning wall. If it's more than .038 inch, it's probably putting the case rim in a bind with the extended ejector. If it's long...file it to .035 inch, being careful to cut straight across.

Cut a small radius on the bottom of the claw, and break the corner on the top...so that when you look at the front of the extractor with the hook facing to your right...as if you were pointing the gun at your face... it looks like a "D"...but a little more square and not as symmetrical. Now you have a clearer escape route for the case as it twists off the extractor.

Here are some pics of the extractor:

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/extractor2.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/extractor-measure1.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/extractor-measure2.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)
Hopefully it looks good to you. I'm not totally clear on where I should be measuring to get the "less than 0.38 inches."



Good thing that you have plenty of length on the ejector...'cause you're probably gonna hafta redo it. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Great. What's wrong with it? (Besides it only having one bevel instead of two. ( / instead of < ) It's still going to give greater consistancy WRT where the case hits it, right?

It should be okay with the 18.5 pound spring. 16 would be better. Okay. What's your favorite source for springs?

One last thing. Hard to tell from the lighting, but you appear to have something going on with the barrel lugs. Shift the camera to light the FRONT faces of the lugs instead of the back, and post another picture.

You ask, I provide. :)

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/lugs1.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/lugs2.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)

[Greyswindir]

Wolff Springs are very good. You can't go wrong if you order some Wolff 16# recoil springs...and they come with a free firing pin spring too! :D

I'm curious as to what Tuner is going to say about your barrel lugs. The seem a bit peened to me but I don't have the experience that Tuner has. I wonder what might be wrong with your filing job on that ejector also. It didn't look all that bad to me but then I haven't needed to file on an ejector yet.

Good luck!

[1911Tuner]

opefully it looks good to you. I'm not totally clear on where I should be measuring to get the "less than 0.38 inches."

From the tip of the claw...the part that grabs the rim to pull it out of the chamber...
from the tip to the tensionibg wall...the area that bears against the side of the case rim.

Your lugs are getting hit. Unsure at this point whether it's happening as the barrel links down or as it goes into the slide...but I have to at least suspect the former because of your intermittent failures to eject.

Go the the technical page and look for "Testing Barrel Timing" by Wil Schuemann. You don't have the kit necessary to to a real test, but you can get a close idea of whether or not you have a barrel linkdown problem.

I also need a picture of the first barrel lug. You showed 2 and 3 in the picture. The first one is the one ahead of the chamber, without a slot behind it. Take it at the same angle as you did in the second picture above.

[Greyswindir]

Tuner,

The first lug is peened also, at least my young eye can make out the same type peening that is evident on lugs two and three. It isn't easy to see but it is there.

[1911Tuner]

It isn't easy to see but it is there.

I thought so, too but couldn't be sure. Now we have to determine whether it's takin' a hit comin' or goin'. A light 3-Point Jam will hit the lug corners and reshape'em like that. If that's it...the flanging is on the faces of the lugs. If it's linkdown timing...the flanging will be on the top.

[Greyswindir]

It looks like both the front and back of lugs #2 and #3 are getting hit. Wouldn't that indicate they are taking a beating both coming and going?

[niemi24s]

The USGI barrel blueprint specifies a 0.005 + 0.010 X 45° chamfer at each of these 5 lug corners.

Could what we're thinking is lug hits just be the factory chamfer?

Perhaps a pic of the slide lugs might be nice to see.

Cheers

[1911Tuner]

The USGI barrel blueprint specifies a 0.005 + 0.010 X 45° chamfer at each of these 5 lug corners.

Could what we're thinking is lug hits just be the factory chamfer?

No. The chamfer specified in ordnance prints was a preventive measure for those occasional pistols that timed the barrel into the slide too early to prevent 3-Point Jams, and for those with slight linkdown timing issues...and has never applied to commercial pistols to the best of my knowledge.

Remember that...whenever a pistol was to be rebarrelled...the first level military armorers (MOS 2112) basically just dropped the barrel in...checked headspace...and returned the gun to inventory after a cursory function test. The modified lugs worked to insure a higher chance of a drop-in fit and function. Nothing more.

What I'm seeing isn't the chamfer anyway...

[niemi24s]

The chamfer specified in ordnance prints was a preventive measure for those occasional pistols that timed the barrel into the slide too early to prevent 3-Point Jams, and for those with slight linkdown timing issues...and has never applied to commercial pistols to the best of my knowledge.
Thanks for the historical background.

Does this same thing apply to the radius/chamfer specified in the ordnance prints for the slide's lug corners (and that commercial slides usually have squarish lug corners)?

Cheers

[1911Tuner]

this same thing apply to the radius/chamfer specified in the ordnance prints for the slide's lug corners (and that commercial slides usually have squarish lug corners)?

Yup. It was just to create a little extra clearance...just in case.

With a barrel timing problem...whether entering or leaving the slide...the points of contact are at the barrel lugs' front corners, and the slide lugs' rear corners.

[John]

Those lugs are definitely suffering from something, especially No 1 and 2, the last one seems to be OK.

[1911Tuner]

Those lugs are definitely suffering from something,

I'd like a peek at the slide's lugs.

[JaimeZX]

Okay, I'll get a shot of the slide lugs in a bit.

Meanwhile, I just got back from the range. My test fire was disappointing. I fired WWB because it has given me the issues in the past. I should have brought some of the Blazer Aluminum which has been reliable for me in the past.

I did NOT have a recurrence of my previous issue. That is to say, no Failures to Eject.

However, (and I am baffled by this) I had several FTExtracts and a few Failures to RTB. I don't know how to account for this since my extractor tension seems to be in line with what this site recommends, it has the radii as reccomended by Tuner and various tech articles.

I definately need to work my way through that timing article and also probably get into the FTExtract writeups.

Regardless, I'm frustrated that I can't trust this weapon to run even one magazine of WWB without an issue right now.

[Greyswindir]

Hi Jaime,

Did you measure the Blazer ammunition and then compare those measurements to the WWB? Maybe that will give a clue to what is happening? Maybe...

Tuner,

Since production pistols barrel and slide lugs edges are usually cut square what will happen if you allow a misfit barrel to let's say, chamfer the edges through contact? Will it do a lot of damage or will it only chamfer the edges to the point of allowing the clearance the gun needs to function properly? In other words will the misfit barrel to slide fit work itself out through burnishing or will it really mess things up badly?

I know that sounds a bit crazy but it would be interesting to know the answer.

[JaimeZX]

I have measured all the various ammo I've tried using and can't find anything noticably different about any of them.

[1911Tuner]

I know that sounds a bit crazy but it would be interesting to know the answer.


Depends on several things. The corners being chamfered by the barrel entering the slide...maybe. From a timing issue...No.

And that depends on how hard the corners hit. It's where the "kachunk" comes from in a 3-Point bind...as opposed to 3-Point Jam...that allows the gun to feed and go to battery, though roughly and usually accompanied by bullet setback and the smiley face on the case. It'll probably never correct itself, though it may become smoother over time...and there's always a high chance of a misfeed when the gun operates in that condition. It's a matter of "when" and not "if."

[1911Tuner]

, (and I am baffled by this) I had several FTExtracts and

Which makes me believe even more that you've got a barrel timing problem. The failures to return to battery are probably a separate issue, and likely simple to address.

Right now...let's concentrate on the main one.

[JaimeZX]

ALCON: Here is the requested pic of the slide lugs. Not super clean here but hopefully you get the idea.

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/slide-lugs.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)


I've been reading the timing article... what should I use for shims to check the clearance? Also, is there a "homemade" version of the referenced "test spring" I might use? Your suggestions are, as always, most welcome!

Jim

[John]

I can see the beveling of the lugs, but I'll let Tuner suggest tests and fixes. That's deep water for me right now, and without my Marlboros, who knows what I may suggest.

[1911Tuner]

. Not super clean here but hopefully you get the idea.

Can't tell much for this...but it seems like I can see a flange developing on the corners. Rake a fingernail lightly across the lug...from front to rear. See if it catches on a wire edge of metal right at the rear corner.

[niemi24s]

... what should I use for shims to check the clearance?
If you have no wire gauges to measure the gaps with, they can be fabricated from solid copper wire, flattened to fit into the gap and then measured with a micrometer or slide caliper.
Also, is there a "homemade" version of the referenced "test spring" I might use?
I use an aluminum shotgun cleaning rod with an adjustable depth stop. A length of wood dowel will also work. The idea is to force the barrel aft and the chamber end up (to put tension on the link) at the same time - just like when the barrel is getting pulled down by the link after firing.

[JaimeZX]

Thanks Niemi.

Tuner, here's a different photo of the slide lugs, and I think more revealing!

http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/05.08/slide-lugs2.jpg (http://upshizzle.com/index.php)


Rounded off just on one side there. No "wiring" of the metal or anything. Very smooth all along both sides of each lug.

I don't see a matching "rounding" on the barrel lugs; there's actually a *little* flattening right in the center of the barrel lugs, but nothing as dramatic as what you can see here.

[1911Tuner]

Tuner, here's a different photo of the slide lugs, and I think more revealing!

Houston...We've got a problem.

[JaimeZX]

http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Super.


What do you recommend now?

[Greyswindir]

Hahaha!

Sorry, the Houston thing was funny!

Don't worry Jaime, Tuner will help you out. Wish I could be more of a help to you but I'm learning right along with you. I haven't learned enough about barrel and lug troubleshooting yet.

Good luck!

[John]

http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Super.


What do you recommend now?
A visit to Tunerfarious Residence !!! But from what I see, you are quite far. :)

[1911Tuner]

What do you recommend now?


Well...That depends. If the lower barrel lug is located too far rearward, another barrel may set it straight. If the vertical impact surface in the frame...the barrel's impact abutment...is located too far forward, you'll need to have it machined to the correct location.

Those are the worst-case scenarios.

A too short or too long link can keep the barrel from clearing the slide. You can check for the short link by removing the recoil spring plug and inserting the slidestop pin through the frame and link, leaving the arm hanging vertically. Slide full rearward, push the barrel against the VIS firmly and swing the slidestop arm through an arc.

It should move freely. If it gets into a bind...the link is short.

Check for a long link by laying the barrel in the frame...slidestop pin through frame and link...and pushing the barrel down and back firmly. If the barrel stands off the bed even a little...the link is too long, and keeping the barrel from dropping far enough to get clear of the slide.

If these things check out okay...you're back to a mislocation, either at the lower lug or the frame's vertical impact surface.

Keep your fingers crossed that it's the barrel. You're gonna need a new one anyway. If you keep shooting it in the present condition, you'll also need a new slide.

[Greyswindir]

Wow!

I was actually going to recommend swapping out the link! I wimped out though, didn't want to put myself out there and wind up falling on my face. I'm already quite bruised from learning through failure. It would be nice if we could learn more from other people's failures. I think that is called wisdom, learning from other people's mistakes!

Something I'm in very short supply of lately.

[1911Tuner]

I was actually going to recommend swapping out the link! I wimped out though, didn't want to put myself out there and wind up falling on my face

Ya did the right thing. Swappin' out links willy-nilly as a trial and error fix is risky bidness. The changing the on-center lengths without a full understanding of what effect it has...and how to look for bad JuJu can bring on a lot of heartache...and expense.

[Greyswindir]

Thanks...glad I didn't get in over my head, which is what would have happened. I'm getting there though. I can't expect to learn everything about the 1911 overnight! I'm just glad I've met people like you Tuner. Without an experienced teacher it would have taken years for me to learn all this stuff!

[JaimeZX]

Well...That depends. If the lower barrel lug is located too far rearward, another barrel may set it straight. If the vertical impact surface in the frame...the barrel's impact abutment...is located too far forward, you'll need to have it machined to the correct location.

Those are the worst-case scenarios.
This may be one of them... read on! :confused:

A too short or too long link can keep the barrel from clearing the slide. You can check for the short link by removing the recoil spring plug and inserting the slidestop pin through the frame and link, leaving the arm hanging vertically. Slide full rearward, push the barrel against the VIS firmly and swing the slidestop arm through an arc.

It should move freely. If it gets into a bind...the link is short.
It swings freely.

Check for a long link by laying the barrel in the frame...slidestop pin through frame and link...and pushing the barrel down and back firmly. If the barrel stands off the bed even a little...the link is too long, and keeping the barrel from dropping far enough to get clear of the slide.
It doesn't appear to stand off the frame at all. I can move it a teensy bit if I apply quite a bit of twisting force with my thumb, but that seems to be a non-factor given that the weapon is partially disassembled.

If these things check out okay...you're back to a mislocation, either at the lower lug or the frame's vertical impact surface.

Keep your fingers crossed that it's the barrel. You're gonna need a new one anyway. If you keep shooting it in the present condition, you'll also need a new slide.
One thing I did notice while hand-cycling the weapon without the recoil spring is there's a definate apparent part of the cycle where the binding/lug rubbing is occurring.

As I push the slide back out of battery, the barrel starts to move with it. After approximately to 1/8" of travel (difficult to measure! Maybe 0.120" on the calipers?) there is a noticable increase in "drag" as the barrel tries to pull down and away from the slide. The "drag" disappears rather quickly (presumably because of the wear on the slide lugs) at approx 0.175" of total travel (an additional 0.05") and then it appears that the barrel has pulled away from the slide completely by sometime between that 0.175" and 0.250" of total travel. This last measurement was the most difficult and I reinserted the spring/plug to try and standardize the pressure on the barrel for consistancy.

In any event, I think the drag-pop lug disengagement probably has something to do with the wear and that = timing, right? So what's the deal?





Or am I just way off-base?

I'm frustrated, anyway. Too bad you're not closer, Tuner. I'd happily hand this over to you.

Thanks, as always, for your advice!

Warm regards,

Jim

[1911Tuner]

I think the drag-pop lug disengagement probably has something to do with the wear and that = timing, right? So what's the deal?

Yup. It means that the link isn't getting the barrel down far enough for the lugs to clear. It starts at about the time that linkdown begins...about 1/10th inch ofslide travel...and ends at about the point that linkdown is finished...or roughly 1/4th inch.

At 1/4th or .250 inch, the barrel should be completely down in the bed of the frame, and you shouls have a clearance between the top of the barrel the the slide bridge formed by the frst lug wall. That gap should be .015 inch or a little more.

[JaimeZX]

So does that mean I should get a shorter link? How much shorter? I don't imagine it could be more than a teeny smidgen because otherwise I'd run into one of the other issues you outlined above, yes?

What do you reccomend at this point?

[1911Tuner]

does that mean I should get a shorter link?

Yes...No...Probably...Probably not...Maybe. Pick one. That's hard to call without bein' able to see the gun and figure out why the barrel isn't getting clear of the slide.

Based on the barrel's position relative to the feed ramp...I'm gonna take a best educated guess and say that either the VIS or the lower lug is mislocated.

[JaimeZX]

Okay so now we get to the crux of the issue.

If I were to ship it to you, how long do you think it would take for
(a) you to get to it
(b) you to diagnose the issue and make it work?

I'm all about doing stuff myself, but I also know when I'm in over my head. I installed my own thumb & grip safeties, but I'm not about to go grindin' on my frame or barrel.

[1911Tuner]

I don't have the required FFL any more, so ya can't ship it to me. I don't have the equipment to machine the frame anyway...if that's what will be required. It may be as simple as replacing the barrel...which you probably need to do at this point anyway. Contact George Smith via PM and tell him you've got a barrel timing problem and see if he can work ya in. He does top-notch work. If George can't get it right, it can't BE got right.

[JaimeZX]

Well, thank you very much for all of your help and advice, my friend. If you're ever in the area I'll happily buy you dinner. :)

[George Smith]

Tuner,
Thank you for the referral, I appreciate it.

We would be happy to go over the gun for you. About a year ago we came out with a new link set, we do the std. 1-5 and we added a 0 link for guns that the slide has been lowered on the frame, or Accurailed. or the rails welded and re machined.

Something That we learned in the last two weeks related to Links I would like to share with you good people.

Were making a slide stop, machined from solid at the shop and in the process Steve said lets shoot a gun with the prove out part made out of aluminum to see what it does?
KooL, so we grab a working 45 out of the show case and switch the slide stop with an aluminum unit. We shot 25 rounds and there was not a mark on it! I was surprised. than we glass beaded it, loaded the gun, shot 1 at a time for another 10 shots. We can see where the barrel feet lock up on the slide stop and where the link pulls the barrel down but there is no deform on the slide stop at all. Pretty interesting.

This week we were making Links for us and another company and at the end of the run we made a couple sets of Aluminum links. We thought maybe a test link? put the link in, shot the gun. Measured the link and after a mag there is no stretch in the link made from 6061 T6 aluminim.

What my take on this is if the gun is funtioning as designed the gun fires, the link pulls the barrel down out of the sldie, the slide goes on it's way. The full impact of the barrels rear travel is taken by the frame. If the gun is set up wrong, the barrel stops the rearward motion on the link / Slide stop.
If you are breaking Links or slide stops, the barrel is stopping on and breaking on the link or the slide stop.

Hope this helps with understanding more about the funtion of this amazing gun.

Best regards,
geo

www.egw-guns.com

[Greyswindir]

Great post George.

I think your experiment has given all of us some pretty good food for thought. I agree, the frame's impact surface should take the impact, not the link or the slidestop.

What is the aluminum that you tested with generally used for in the industry? Does the Aerospace community us it? Is is a specialty aluminum that is a better quality then the common stuff we're all used to?

Thanks.

[log man]

made from 6061 T6 aluminim.


6061-T6 is one of the most common alloys of aluminum used in fabrication today. It is machinable, heat treatable, and weldable.

LOG

[Greyswindir]

Thanks Log.

I guess it is in wide use because it is a good quality, huh?

[George Smith]

To elobrate on Log Man's post

6061 is a good alloy.
I believe the ultimate yeild at about 44k

by comparison 1018 carbon steel is 55k

but 4140, what the GI print calls for, is 180k so it is clearly not the same and more prone to give issue right away if there were one to come up. being 1/4 the strenght of the Print GI slide stop.

Even the surface of the area where the slide stop locked the slide back was in good shape.

best regards,
geo